OT FYI the Futures markets crashed

[lambro]

in the abbreviated MLK session today

the DOW FUTS closed down 520 points

the spoos (S&P futs) closed down 59.75 points..

>-5% is limit down, when they will halt trading, that might happen tomorrow

hopefully you've all been out of your mutual funds since the grand double top this summer...

[Jim Williams]

Yea, it's getting bad, especially the dollar drop.

I saw an engineer at the off ramp of Coldwater Cyn. and the 101 freeway in LA.

He was holding a cardboard sign that said, "Will sell 1073's for food".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[ALL*MYTEE]

Nothing like a good gut check to straighten things out and separate the opportunists from the long haulers. With luck I'll be writing a mortgage right after next week's Fed meeting.

[djwayne]

Incomes going down, prices going up.... it doesn't add up, something has to give.

Houses not selling, foreclosures up....people can only hold out for so long.

Yep, it's scary.

They are saying Bush's plan is too little too late. Maybe the Federal Reserve Board should have cut the interest rate a little more ?? Didn't they raised the rates to cool off the housing market, and curb inflation ?? So what's the problem, this is what they wanted, yes ??

[zboy2854]

The problem is systemic, and it's been building for many years. The problem in a nutshell, is debt. Way, way too much of it, and a lot of it very bad debt. The Fed and the government have tried to pull all sorts of rabbits out of their hats to stave off economic downturns over the last several years, but all they've really achieved is prolonging the inevitable, and making it even worse now that it's coming hard and fast.

Long story short, there is NOTHING the government or Fed can do at this point, they helped create the problem, and now the markets are going to solve it for them.

[loujudson]

Yes they can! Tax the rich, stop the war, give life support to the poor, make corporations illegal so they stop sending jobs overseas.

That'll fix it in a newyorkminnit.

I have never had enough money to buy investments, so I am fascinated to watch - sometimes hope it all just crashes down around the profit-mongers. I have nothing to lose...

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Yes they can! Tax the rich, stop the war, give life support to the poor, make corporations illegal so they stop sending jobs overseas.

That'll fix it in a newyorkminnit.

I have never had enough money to buy investments, so I am fascinated to watch - sometimes hope it all just crashes down around the profit-mongers. I have nothing to lose...

[djwayne]

Well the Federal Reserve Board dropped interest rates a hefty 3/4 of a point. Hopefully this will help, but it's too little too late for people who have already lost their homes.

You can't get a loan at any rate if you don't have a job.

What's really scary is the stock markets are continuing their fall all over the world.

[The Byre]

I think you'll find things aren't all that bad. Expect a rally today!

[ALL*MYTEE]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Yes they can! Tax the rich, stop the war, give life support to the poor, make corporations illegal so they stop sending jobs overseas.

That'll fix it in a newyorkminnit.

I have never had enough money to buy investments, so I am fascinated to watch - sometimes hope it all just crashes down around the profit-mongers. I have nothing to lose...

This would cause a worldwide depression worse than the one in the 30s. Millions of the poorest people would probably starve, and hundreds of millions would lose their houses, jobs, etc. Fewer people would have health care and authoritarian governments would likely start to rise around the world.

The "profit-mongers" of whom you speak include many middle class workers and families, including the pension funds for almost every union. It's not the corporations sending the jobs overseas, it's the shoppers at Wal-Mart. They won't buy anything made here because it "costs too much". Corporations just do what consumers want them to. In this case, cut costs and pass along savings very aggressively.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Yes they can! Tax the rich, stop the war, give life support to the poor, make corporations illegal so they stop sending jobs overseas.

That'll fix it in a newyorkminnit.

I have never had enough money to buy investments, so I am fascinated to watch - sometimes hope it all just crashes down around the profit-mongers. I have nothing to lose...

Except your standard of living. How much do you think "the rich" pay in taxes?

20%? 40%?

Try like 70%. That's what the top 10% in wage earners pay. Should they pay more? If you paid that much to the guvment, would you have any incentive to even work at all? I'd go fish'in.

Life support to the poor? So each according to their needs? Very Marxist of you.
They have a place for you, it's called Cuba.

Make corporations illegal?, did that in Cuba too, seen their lifestyle down there?
Those 1955 Chevies are cute, but they're not what I'm shopping for.

Don't know about you, but I never got a job from a poor person. Have you?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[djwayne]

So should we give to the rich and let it trickle down, or give to the poor and let it trickle up ????

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by ALL*MYTEE

This would cause a worldwide depression worse than the one in the 30s. Millions of the poorest people would probably starve, and hundreds of millions would lose their houses, jobs, etc. Fewer people would have health care and authoritarian governments would likely start to rise around the world.

The "profit-mongers" of whom you speak include many middle class workers and families, including the pension funds for almost every union. It's not the corporations sending the jobs overseas, it's the shoppers at Wal-Mart. They won't buy anything made here because it "costs too much". Corporations just do what consumers want them to. In this case, cut costs and pass along savings very aggressively.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. The only stated purpose of corporations is to make profit for shareholders. If Americans had better jobs they could afford to buy things made in America! Sending manufacturing and other jobs to China is one reason the US is in trouble now, along with billions for war... over 60 percent of "job growth" has been low wage service jobs, the classic "want fries with that" kind of jobs.

And what about the millions without healthcare now, and the authoritarian oligarchy running the US right now?!? millions are already starving, while they cut the taxes for the richest 1 percent.

People shop at walmart because they have driven home owned businesses out by undercutting prices with shoddy goods made overseas. The middle class workers do not profit by the corporations, only the stockholders and overpaid executives.

I live in one of the three highest income counties on the US, on less than 30k per year. No SUV, no investments.

We are probably way off topic of studio business I think, though.

[djwayne]

I think this thread is on topic, because the state of the general economy does indeed effect studio business. This thing is so big, it's of interest to everybody, and I appreciate getting the input from the people here.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Try like 70%. That's what the top 10% in wage earners pay. Should they pay more? If you paid that much to the guvment, would you have any incentive to even work at all? I'd go fish'in.

Life support to the poor? So each according to their needs? Very Marxist of you.
They have a place for you, it's called Cuba.

Don't know about you, but I never got a job from a poor person. Have you?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this. I mean nothing like what you say - I don't mean wage earners, I mean the profit skimmers who make money with money instead of their time, the billionaires who pay virtually nothing in taxes. Wage earners paying 70% are victims too. Make income tax a flat rate like 10% and watch the national income rise!

And nothing at all communistic is implied, Jim, you are being reactionary. I mean change the business model of the corporate system to provide service and jobs to humanity rather than profit for a few while sacrificing quality goods. By life support I mean healthcare for all, things like that. I know this is too radical for you, but it really would make sense if it were done.

And all my clients are poor - they are musicians!

<L>

[Jim Williams]

So who pays for it? That money must come from somewhere, o yea, we'll just print some more!

Don't know if you noticed, most stocks in the dreaded evil corporations are held by you, me, your neighbors, friends, middle class America. We are the evil corporations.

We have 60 trillion, yes trillion in debt obligations right now. We are still paying for the Great Society programs of LBJ! That was 40+ years ago.

We can't even pay for what we've already borrowed. Just interest on the national debt is 15% of our budget. How's the guvment going to get the cash to nationalize health care, 1/7th of the entire economy?

Even if they do, do you have any faith in the competance of Guvment beaurocrats to run one seventh of the entire economy? They can't even run the post office!

So much for my Social Security fund, they spent it! So much for my medicare fund, they spent it! They mismanaged the wars, they mismanaged the economy, they mismanage everything they touch. And you want these incompetents running YOUR health care?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[djwayne]

They had no problem finding the billions for the war in Iraq.

[The Byre]

I've met many rich people and I have yet to meet one that paid taxes, unless they wanted to for political, image or moral reasons.

If the rates are too high in the US or the UK, get paid in Luxembourg. Or have your head office there and the holding company in the Bahamas.

Most rich people pay some taxes on some of their income, so that the IRS have something to bite into.

[loujudson]

"Don't know if you noticed, most stocks in the dreaded evil corporations are held by you, me, your neighbors, friends, middle class America. We are the evil corporations.

We have 60 trillion, yes trillion in debt obligations right now. We are still paying for the Great Society programs of LBJ! That was 40+ years ago."

I don't own any stocks. I only know two people who admit they do.

And as far as I know, Bush II inherited a balanced budget, and ran it up into the trillions with war and tax cuts for the rich... or am I a victim of the "liberal media?" since I don't get any of my news from TV.

L

[Sounds Great]

A 3/4% rate cut is not going to instill confidence in anyone. It is a move out of pure desperation and just shows that the situation is out of control and the Fed has no idea what to do about it.

Stock up on soup.

[loujudson]

Stock up on soup.

Hey, I have THAT kind of stock!

L

[djwayne]

The 3/4 % rate cut seems to have averted a 500+ point drop for now.

I'm not a fortune teller, so I can't predict the future.

Buying cans of soup is not a bad idea though.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by loujudson

"Don't know if you noticed, most stocks in the dreaded evil corporations are held by you, me, your neighbors, friends, middle class America. We are the evil corporations.

We have 60 trillion, yes trillion in debt obligations right now. We are still paying for the Great Society programs of LBJ! That was 40+ years ago."

I don't own any stocks. I only know two people who admit they do.

And as far as I know, Bush II inherited a balanced budget, and ran it up into the trillions with war and tax cuts for the rich... or am I a victim of the "liberal media?" since I don't get any of my news from TV.

L

A balanced yearly budjet is not the same as the national debt. Clinton borrowed billions, but on paper he "paid" for them. I reality, he borrowed plenty, but not nearly as much as Bush 2. The rest of the world is shaking in their financial boots right now because they are dependent on our economy as we have been borrowing from them for years. If we go down, who will pay the interest? That's 15% of our entire yearly budget, with no returns, never to be seen again. We called that a black hole in Astronomy, light goes in, nothing goes out.

If you think the feds have miss-managed this, wait til Shrillary gets her hands down your pants, better hold on to your wallet.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[YZ!]

Jim,

I understand your point of view.

However, I believe it is wrong.


It all depends on who one calls "rich people"; if you say that "rich" is the guy with a wife and 2 sons who owns 5 cars, a large house and about US$2mil in savings after 25-30 years of work, with a salary/earnings of about 360k/year from his own business or from the results of his job where he is constantly "benchmarked" for his revenue-generating capacity by the employer, it is one thing; if you call "rich" the guy who does not have to spend much because his employer (ie, shareholder money) gives him the large house, the cars, the learjet and a salary in the tens of millions, but choses to spend it in a few houses around the globe, historic/expensive cars, a yacht, eccentricities and so forth, has over $100mil in investments, we're talking about something else.

For me, "rich" _starts_ in the second case and goes all the way up to the level of some people I've met; guys who could, if they wanted, literally burn a few millions and it would have no effect in their finances; it wouldn't impact their daily lives or long-term plans.

Those are the guys who have so much that they can get into hedge funds and very risky investments, expecting enormous profits, but flee and take their money when any factor menaces the earnings that they _don't need_ in order to keep livin' la vida loca; including those who _run_ the hedge funds and the large financial corporations.

Those are the guys who suck the blood of the poorer (meaning: from the really poor to the middle-class), close down the mom-and-pop businesses with their tactics and so on.

They hold the power of decision, the power of Big Money.

The rest of us are small fry, including the $360k/yr guy, who also invests in stock but loses when the big ones withdraw from the market when they know (before us all) that the s*it will hit the fan. The s*it that they have created themselves.

Then governments come to _their_ rescue, because if they fall, we all do.

But would they fall, really? or just get a little less rich? they lose a bit, we lose our shirts. They lose 10% of their billions, but we starve, lose the house, have to cut into the kid's college fund, close our small business.

Have people not leaned from Enron and all the crap that surfaced after that? Big Money knows before we do what is going to happen in the market, because they _own_ the market; CEOs get fired for running business poorly but get hundreds of millions in golden parachutes just to keep quiet and not tell about the backstage shenanigans; executives receive bonuses as back-dated stock options calculated for maximum profit for them and damn the "common man" shareholder.

The wealth generated trickles down? yes it does. a small percentage. Any other way and it wouldn't be profitable for "them".

But when things go wrong, it is _us_ who pay for it all.

I'm a capitalist; I believe that people should be rewarded for their efforts and for the value (for society) that their work generates; I believe in the right to private property, freedom of opinion, of press, of movement, of choice.

But I don't believe in salaries in the hundred million range.

Just one example of what I'm talking about:

For years, Standard and Poor's (the bank whose standard is to make you poor) was the entity who "rated" the economic potential of third-world countries.

They found a "gold mine" in Brazil... every few months they would rate Brazil as a great investment risk, and then the Brazilian economy would take a heavy hit with investors fleeing.

The country is healthy and would rebound, only to be hit by a new bad rating months later.

In late 2001 it was made public that S&P was buying Brazilian bonds and stock aggressively after their ratings, and selling a couple of weeks before the next rating. Always. For many years.

Made hundreds of billions for them.

Made millions of people have a life of s*it.

After that, the mechanism changed and S&P had to stop their little game; the Brazilian stock exchange index went from 8000 in jan 2002 to 65000 in dec 2007, rising constantly (with a few ripples as usual).

They (Big Money) act similarly worldwide.

So much for Big Money being beneficial for society.

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

So who pays for it? That money must come from somewhere, o yea, we'll just print some more!

Don't know if you noticed, most stocks in the dreaded evil corporations are held by you, me, your neighbors, friends, middle class America. We are the evil corporations.

We have 60 trillion, yes trillion in debt obligations right now. We are still paying for the Great Society programs of LBJ! That was 40+ years ago.

We can't even pay for what we've already borrowed. Just interest on the national debt is 15% of our budget. How's the guvment going to get the cash to nationalize health care, 1/7th of the entire economy?

Even if they do, do you have any faith in the competance of Guvment beaurocrats to run one seventh of the entire economy? They can't even run the post office!

So much for my Social Security fund, they spent it! So much for my medicare fund, they spent it! They mismanaged the wars, they mismanaged the economy, they mismanage everything they touch. And you want these incompetents running YOUR health care?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[ALL*MYTEE]

Originally Posted by loujudson

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. The only stated purpose of corporations is to make profit for shareholders. If Americans had better jobs they could afford to buy things made in America! Sending manufacturing and other jobs to China is one reason the US is in trouble now, along with billions for war... over 60 percent of "job growth" has been low wage service jobs, the classic "want fries with that" kind of jobs.

And what about the millions without healthcare now, and the authoritarian oligarchy running the US right now?!? millions are already starving, while they cut the taxes for the richest 1 percent.

People shop at walmart because they have driven home owned businesses out by undercutting prices with shoddy goods made overseas. The middle class workers do not profit by the corporations, only the stockholders and overpaid executives.

I live in one of the three highest income counties on the US, on less than 30k per year. No SUV, no investments.

We are probably way off topic of studio business I think, though.

The largest shareholders of many multinationals are unions. Teacher's pension funds, auto workers--anyone who has a retirement account is a part owner in a corporation. Most families I know own stocks--and that includes a lot of activists, organizers and musicians. And everyone who owns stocks is interested in profits. It's an extremely superficial economic analysis to say the corporations--"they"--are screwing "us". Because they are us! Corporations can't do anything besides what consumers pay them to do and what shareholders expect them to do.

If you don't like something that's going on, then don't do it--but to ask others to stop what they want to do makes me wonder why you should be running things. Even if you want full blown communism (and I'm not saying you do)--you can go build it in the US. Organize workers and buy a factory and run it yourself. Do whatever you want. That's the American Way. But the deal is that other people get to do what they want to--and if that is make money and profit from their activity, then they get to do that. I don't trust people who need me to change before they can be happy.

Consumers are not victims as you paint them. They can do whatever they want. Shop wherever they want. No big bad corporation is forcing them to do anything. No corporation or government is responsible for providing jobs for people. People are responsible to themselves. If you don't like what's going on, start any business or corporation you like. Or run for office.

If you had ever spent any time under a true authoritarian regime, I doubt you would use that term so casually. Rape victims are beaten in Saudi Arabia, monks killed in Burma for protesting--these are authoritarian regimes. What we have is a democracy. Or republic if you're a stickler for terminology.

Who owes middle class workers a job? Unless they can demonstrate that they can add value to a product or provide a better service. Will you pay from your pocket for something to be made in the US so a union guy can drive a Hummer? Hell, the unions are half the problem here in Chicago. They're corrupt. And it's the Democrats who have been lining their pockets and handing out cush no-show jobs for 50 years.

And why is a US worker any different than a person somewhere else in the world who has a family to support? Who can do a job much less expensively and wants the work much more? If we paid Malaysians what we pay union workers, they could support entire villages off of two or three people working. If you really cared about saving the world, why not do that? Why not provide health care for an entire African village for the price that it costs one overweight office worker who doesn't feel like working out?

What about the billions without healthcare EVER?

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

How much do you think "the rich" pay in taxes?

20%? 40%?

Try like 70%. That's what the top 10% in wage earners pay.

LOL! Where did you get this gem? Source please. The top tax bracket is only something like 35%. And contrary to what many people believe, you're not even paying that 35% on your entire taxable income, just on the amount that falls into that bracket. I don't know about the top 10% of wage earners, but the truly rich are not wage earners at all, as they make their wealth primarily from capital gains.

EDIT: Sorry, I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were saying that the top 10% pay 70% taxes on their earnings. A google search for "top 10% wage earners" reveals some Rush Limbaugh and Free Republic rants about how the 50% of wage earners pay 93% of the total income taxes so I'm assuming that's what you're referring to. If so, it's a pretty silly argument that simply takes advantage of the peculiarities of averages to try to turn middle class workers against the progressive income tax.

[JSpark]

Its amazing to see how few Americans are aware of how money is created and managed in this country. If you did, you would stop blaming rich people, poor people, and unions.

Its all very simple and quite simple minded.

For a more or less clear explanation, check out one of these videos

Money, Banking and the Federal Reserve

Money As Debt

Amazing fact: Not many understand a lick about what we know and call the Federal Reserve Bank. If you took just an hour to familiarize yourself with the basics, you would be horrified. You would also be more educated and aware than 99.9% of the people in our country on this topic (including many politicians).

[loujudson]

I've been stuying a bit all this, and still blame in part the wealthy who take advantage of it...

friend sent me this:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar.../15/20692.aspx

Not much fun to watch, unless you enjoy bad news (is there any other kind?)
But probably something people /should/ watch.

which led to this, 3.5 hour film if you care to know that much:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/th...ica/1965949665

L

[JSpark]

Originally Posted by loujudson

I've been stuying a bit all this, and still blame in part the wealthy who take advantage of it...

friend sent me this:
The U.S. Dollar is Dying - Articles

Not much fun to watch, unless you enjoy bad news (is there any other kind?)
But probably something people /should/ watch.

which led to this, 3.5 hour film if you care to know that much:

The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America - AOL Video

L

The facts in this video r accurate. But, the reason why the dollar is shrinking is not made plain.

The crux of the matter is we are trying to outrun debt that is written into the workings of the system. Like trying to outrun our shadow. Mathematically impossible. To see why this is, you would have to examine the Federal Reserve Bank and its workings. For every American this is imperative to know, but interestingly NEVER taught in schools (or universities).

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by JSpark

The facts in this video r accurate. But, the reason why the dollar is shrinking is not made plain.

The crux of the matter is we are trying to outrun debt that is written into the workings of the system. Like trying to outrun our shadow. Mathematically impossible. To see why this is, you would have to examine the Federal Reserve Bank and its workings. For every American this is imperative to know, but interestingly NEVER taught in schools (or universities).

One thing that came to light for me in this is that the Fed is not part of the government, it is a private bank. And they are running the show!

Sheesh. Not that that won't work, but that they are unregulated...

<L>