composing for TV leaders & commercials. What money to ask?!

[harvestmark]

While I can't give you a price range, I can tell you this. If it's a "for real, serious" entity contacting you, they will already have a budget for music. They know what they can spend & what they can't. Ask for their budget numbers & then decide if you can live with that amount, taking into consideration it may be WAY more work than you think. Also, is it local, regional, or national exposure your work will receive? How long will it run? Are they asking for the rights to use it for a finite time period, such as one year? Sometimes the expectation is that your client will own the music. If you "sell" the music to them, then no matter what happens, you will never recieve another penney for the music. I would warn against this. If you own it, then you may be able to receive royalties based on how much it airs. You have to be a member of ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, etc...The idea here is to have many pieces receiving exposure, because just one will not add up to much USUALLY. There are exceptions. In addition, does your compensation include the production of the piece, or simply the composition? Usually the expectation is that you will provide the client with a finished master. That means you pay for recording costs. What if there are revisions, (inevitable)? Will they pay for these revisions, (including recording costs), or will that be part of your original deal? Will it be a union production, so you can receive additional monies for playing on it? And residuals, if it airs for more than 13 weeks. I know, lots to think about. As you can see, there are a lot of things involved in the pricing of a piece of music. So, determine the ultimate use, the exposure, the length of time it will air, and the likelihood of it throwing off additional revenue, and then decide if you can live with that figure. You can also generate that figure, based on all the considerations. Hope this helps intead of confuses.
Mark Miller

[Chuck B]

mark made some very good comments. Especially the ones about who pays for overages and revisionsand all of the union stuff. He's obviously been around the block.

I think for a relatively new composer it might be a lot easier to structure your deal as a Buy-out. unless you think it's something that will be airing for a long time on stations/channels that are monitored by the unions.

I would ask the company what their music budget is. Don't ask the person who would write the check though, ask the person who you are working with directly. that's how most deals get closed where i work. That way you don't have to worry about make a super high offer and insulting them or even worse working for less than they expected.

you should have an idea of what your minimum is, just keep that in mind and hope they offer double that.

that being said I think at least 1500 for a minute piece of music if it is all synth/sample based. although, I have seen people pay a lot more than that you could be looking at 1500-10000 depending on their budget.

then again I've never heard your stuff so i could be way of with my pricing

hope this rambling post helped
chuck

[gsilbers]

we once did a budwiser comercial... 60 grand.

so you get a lot of money. thats why there sooo many trying.

just find out from another composer from the same type of show/programing/airtime/etc how much they got. if its public tv, dot expect much.

depends also on the rating the show has/nelsen ratings.

ask whats the budget and start from there.

also harvestmark had really good pointers

[Marbarbaar]

Yes, this helps, thank you!
(Mark even pointed out some things I hadn't even considered yet !
Like the customers expectations about the ownership.
Now I'll be sure to explicitly discuss these details with any customer. -I don't fancy selling ownership-.)

I'm indeed with a union; BUMA/STEMRA, Dutch equivalent of ASCAP.
I don't know if and how BUMA handles deals abroad though, I'll have to ask them.
Because some of these contacts I've had are via internet with guys throughout the world.

If I'm not too bold to ask you an additional question (as you guys seem to've been around the block indeed)

A while ago just before geting my BA I was a cheap slut for a public TV station, composing a sample based 45 sec. orchestral trailer.
For the station this was insanely cheap, as they didn't pay me anything but 40% of the royalties.
I was happy though, as this was a gig that did wonders for my CV/portfolio & experience.

Do you know anything about this splitting the royalties business?
Is it something slightly common practice...?
Basically I gave rights to the stations' inhouse publishing house (is that a word?) to steal a percentage of my royalties. Thus, the station payed itself!
I didn't really like it.....

So I'm wondering if I will walk into such royalty splitting business again, and to what extent I should accept it.

Thanks again.

BTW, This all also helped me formulate an answer for people who ask me about my pricetag.

[Marbarbaar]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

we once did a budwiser comercial... 60 grand.

so you get a lot of money. thats why there sooo many trying.

just find out from another composer from the same type of show/programing/airtime/etc how much they got. if its public tv, dot expect much.

depends also on the rating the show has/nelsen ratings.

ask whats the budget and start from there.

also harvestmark had really good pointers

60 for the whole thing or just for the music??
GEEZ, Either way I'm on the right path here.... :-D !!!!
I don't like beer, but I do have a pal who knows someone of the Heineken family.
Maybe I should ask for his number....


On a more serious sidenote.....:

Is there some regulation to this whole rating thing, or is this also simply something you take into consideration before engaging?

[bigbone]

Usaly when there is THAT much money for a jingles, this mean that you got to
pay for the production, this mean you do pay the studio, the musician, the ingeneer
so it could cost you a little, you just have to make a budget for yourself, and make sure there is a bit of $$$$$ left for you......

[chrisgraff]

Originally Posted by Marbarbaar

A while ago just before geting my BA I was a cheap slut for a public TV station, composing a sample based 45 sec. orchestral trailer.
For the station this was insanely cheap, as they didn't pay me anything but 40% of the royalties.
I was happy though, as this was a gig that did wonders for my CV/portfolio & experience.

Do you know anything about this splitting the royalties business?
Is it something slightly common practice...?
Basically I gave rights to the stations' inhouse publishing house (is that a word?) to steal a percentage of my royalties. Thus, the station payed itself!
I didn't really like it.....

So I'm wondering if I will walk into such royalty splitting business again, and to what extent I should accept it.
[/I]

FWIW, MTV networks demands ownership (publishing) if they are to use a piece of music. Of course "published" songs in videos, etc. are the exception. I wouldn't worry about it. You negotiate the best deal you can given your bargaining postion; then you cash the check and move on.

I recently had a songwriter tell me he wrote a piece of music that Wyclef Jean took and wrote a rap to it. When it all went down, Wyclef (allegedly) took 40%, gave his buddy 40%, and gave the songwriter 20%.

The songwriter's lawyer told him if they fought it, the song wouldn't make the record. So he took his measly 20%, and lived to fight another day.

[harvestmark]

Regarding your question about "accepting royalties only"; I'm not an expert on this subject, but I believe it's a technique used in the television industry for things like news packages, or all the music you would hear during a news broadcast. The idea hear is for the music to receive A LOT of play so there will be royalties thrown off. This in itself does not add up to much money, HOWEVER, companies that do this market their music all over the country. They will license it in as many markets as possible. That way, the royalties can add up. Only one station, one market will not add up to enough money for me to do all the work I know is neccessary for a news package. That can be dozens of pieces of music. If it were a regional or national entity, then I'd listen, but I'd do the math first. If it is only one market, will you be able to license it in other markets? Hope this helps. Please remember, I am NOT an expert in this area, but I have heard of these arrangements.
Mark Miller

[Led]

Any commissioned screen work I do is based on a 24 month license. After that they can roll it over for another 24 months at 50% of the original fee. In Oz we negotiate a budget and we pay all production costs, with the exception of "celebrity vocalists" in which case we make the initial contact with the artist management but the artist fee is billed direct to the client (with an administration loading). Fees vary a hell of a lot in this country and it pretty much works on what your track record is. The bigger your reel, the bigger the fee.
Sharing royalties is a crock of sh!t. This has been tried by agencies and clients for a number of years and some smaller places will buy into it, but again, if you have a good enough reel you can just say no and if they want you bad enough they will agree. Buyouts (where the client owns the tune) occur, but they are generally motivated by the client wanting the freedom to use the music across all mediums without needing new license agreements. They also pay dearly for the priveledge (multiply the original fee by at least 3) The optimum way to do this is to grant an unlimited license in perpetuity for the one piece of music. This way you still retain the rights to performance royalties, and you moral right. We also require notification of usage which is written into the agreement the client signs. The biggest thing to cover yourself against is endless revivsions, or even worse when the agency say they are happy but their client wants to make changes, and you end up using your whole budget just to get the thing finished. Personally, I would pay no attention to 'potential' royalties when working out the fee. There is no way to guarantee them and you won't see them for a couple of years if there are any. You need to eat now, not in a few years time. Having said that everbody has to start somewhere so it may be worth taking a loss on a few things if they would contribute to a great reel that will get you more work.
Good luck with it all.
Cheers,

Led

[Marbarbaar]

Thanks Led. (and the others! Very nice advice & pointers here indeed.)

What did you mean with OZ?
Prison T.V.-show...?
The Wizzard of ......?

[pramrod]

Originally Posted by chrisgraff

FWIW, MTV networks demands ownership (publishing) if they are to use a piece of music. Of course "published" songs in videos, etc. are the exception.

I have not necessarily found this to be the case- MTV has licensed music from me for use on shows and i still own all the publishing (though i have found them to be somewhat cheap in terms of the licensing fees). and I receive fat ascap checks from it too! my advice- ask A LOT! more than you think you should- you will get it or they can always come back with a counter offer- and be sure to get all your publishing stuff in order at your ascap/bmi/sesac/etc.- the publishing check are SWEET even from just a bit of airplay. but keep those fat checks quiet- suddenly all your friends will want to horn in on that tv/commercials/film composing action... enjoy pram

[ron florentine]

OZ=Australia

[andybrannan]

Im a sound Designer and i have worked on Hundreds of TV commercials and i work for a music house here in NY .As for what to ask for about Money .The clients will have a Budget for the project.And money for demos .Many commercial music houses compete on the same project .And get demo fees if they go with another music house .AS for me Im on a 50/50 cut with the music house and cost come out of my percentage .IE studio cost,clients meals,laybacks,etc...so it could be .$250 demo fee or you walk away with 30k depending on how many spots .cutdowns..etc.....At the end of the day the CLIENTS TELL US WHAT YHE BUDGET IS.........

[elektrik sound]

BTW, this looks pretty cool. I haven't seen anything else comparable out there:Studio and Recording: Composing For Commercials Video Tutorial - macProVideo.com

[kelvyn]

Budgets have been drastically reduced over the years so all kinds of methods are employed when working out how to pay a composer/producer.

Generally you will be offered one of the following:

Production budget + Buyouts (yearly or complete) which means getting paid a certain amount for Layouts/Fine Tuning/Production + a lump sum for the buyouts (regional/national/international). The most normal respectable way to do business.

Production budget that includes all buyouts forever and a day... Watch out for that one. There's a LOT of money to be made with buyouts if you are clever.

Royalty Free: No mechanicals for when it's played on TV or in a cinema just a lump sum up front. Kinda sucks!

Licensed: A company expects that you will receive payment through the mechanicals/residuals that are collected by collection agencies like Gema (Germany) Biem Stemra (Holland) MCPS & PRS (England) etc. So no money up front. This sucks big time especially if the production company has its own publishing company which mean they also earn money on your work. Only when really desperate should you go this way. But since most of us don't always have other options... a bit of something is better than a bit of nothing.
But this kind of payment system is really f*cked!

I guess the rule of thumb would be... Since companies these days are trying to get as much music as possible for as little financial outlay as possible then you should try and get as much as possible depending on your leverage (connections/name/individuality) and powers of persuasion.

The advertising market is flooded so networking and the image you create for yourself (nobody does it better for this or any price) is more important than a lot of other stuff. "It's a dog eat dog world"

[shizness]

If you ask the production house iif they want more than one demo and they say yes, will you get demo fees for each submitted composition?

[artmanjam]

Originally Posted by kelvyn

Licensed: A company expects that you will receive payment through the mechanicals/residuals that are collected by collection agencies like Gema (Germany) Biem Stemra (Holland) MCPS & PRS (England) etc. So no money up front. This sucks big time especially if the production company has its own publishing company which mean they also earn money on your work. Only when really desperate should you go this way. But since most of us don't always have other options... a bit of something is better than a bit of nothing.
But this kind of payment system is really f*cked!

While having holidays, I've been asked once for music for a national TV show. Being asked about budget, the guy answered :
- Well, we'll just contract for 1/2 publishing rights
- Ok, I said, so let's sum up, you have a 0€ budget for the music and you'll be publisher for 1/2, that's it?
- That's it
- Mmmm, let me ask you : do you NOT know when you'll be paid for your work?
- Yes, I know when.
- Do you not know how much you'll be paid?
- Yes, I know how much.
- Will somebody withdraw a part of your income then?
- No, indeed.
- I guess that's the proposal you just offered. I'll earn money from the author's rights collection agency only. I don't know when I'll get it. I don't how much I'll earn as I don't know how long your show will be released. And you'll withdraw a part as 1/2 publisher. You know what, I'm having holidays and I'll stay here, thank you.

The show was cancelled after a 2 months broadcast...

[eightyeightkeys]

Originally Posted by artmanjam

While having holidays, I've been asked once for music for a national TV show. Being asked about budget, the guy answered :
- Well, we'll just contract for 1/2 publishing rights
- Ok, I said, so let's sum up, you have a 0€ budget for the music and you'll be publisher for 1/2, that's it?
- That's it
- Mmmm, let me ask you : do you NOT know when you'll be paid for your work?
- Yes, I know when.
- Do you not know how much you'll be paid?
- Yes, I know how much.
- Will somebody withdraw a part of your income then?
- No, indeed.
- I guess that's the proposal you just offered. I'll earn money from the author's rights collection agency only. I don't know when I'll get it. I don't how much I'll earn as I don't know how long your show will be released. And you'll withdraw a part as 1/2 publisher. You know what, I'm having holidays and I'll stay here, thank you.

The show was cancelled after a 2 months broadcast...

Really like that.

Ad-Agencies have been doing the licensing thing for the longest time now, but, if you're getting some offers....more power to ya. That's awesome.

I would say that, at first, charge whatever will get you in the door...."I'll work within your budget." Get in as many doors as possible. One ad-agency will not be enough in the long haul. Creative directors seem to come and go with any slight breeze.

Always do you very best work no matter what the budget and do whatever it takes to keep those people happy. Make life easy for them and they will hire you time and time again.

Music for commercials is extremely tough to get into...people don't realize sometimes how tough.

[Korgscrew]

Hey, I did a job for TV last year. Got £600 quid got it. It took me about 2 hours.

They keep using it on TV.

My quarterly PRS Payment is about £4K just from that track. :-)

Don't forget about PRS. It's the best union you will ever join!!

[MarkR]

Your fee really depends on your experience, and how you value yourself. Generally it wont be something you have to worry about because the client will outline their budget for you.

Occasionally though, you will be asked to present the cost of writing music, and you have to judge what kind of company it is and the application of the music. If it's some smalltime company wanting something for their website you obviously can't charge a full fee of thousands, but on the other hand big companies deal with more than you'd probably feel comfortable asking for so go big.

For commercial the minimums I go by are £1500 for online and £5000 for TV per year, £250-500 non-known brand company online videos, £100-250 independent online videos. TV shows and films, it's quite hard to say what you should charge as no film production is the same, but it would be odd for them not to have a music budget outlined.

Originally Posted by kelvyn

Budgets have been drastically reduced over the years so all kinds of methods are employed when working out how to pay a composer/producer.

Generally you will be offered one of the following:

Production budget + Buyouts (yearly or complete) which means getting paid a certain amount for Layouts/Fine Tuning/Production + a lump sum for the buyouts (regional/national/international). The most normal respectable way to do business.

Production budget that includes all buyouts forever and a day... Watch out for that one. There's a LOT of money to be made with buyouts if you are clever.

Royalty Free: No mechanicals for when it's played on TV or in a cinema just a lump sum up front. Kinda sucks!

Licensed: A company expects that you will receive payment through the mechanicals/residuals that are collected by collection agencies like Gema (Germany) Biem Stemra (Holland) MCPS & PRS (England) etc. So no money up front. This sucks big time especially if the production company has its own publishing company which mean they also earn money on your work. Only when really desperate should you go this way. But since most of us don't always have other options... a bit of something is better than a bit of nothing.
But this kind of payment system is really f*cked!

I guess the rule of thumb would be... Since companies these days are trying to get as much music as possible for as little financial outlay as possible then you should try and get as much as possible depending on your leverage (connections/name/individuality) and powers of persuasion.

The advertising market is flooded so networking and the image you create for yourself (nobody does it better for this or any price) is more important than a lot of other stuff. "It's a dog eat dog world"

Music should never be ''royalty free'' the broadcaster pays this fee, so say you do a commercial for Hugo Boss, Hugo Boss wont be trying to negotiate ''royalty free'' to save costs (or the marketing/advertising company on their behalf) because they're not the ones who'd be paying. However there are some companies that delivery cheap royalty free music of course.

No one should be selling or trying to buyout music in perpetually, music should always be licensed per year. It's literally unheard of for anything successful, and for music that's probably not going to be a 'hit', why is it being bought outright?

As a composer you'll be,
1) Losing a track you could possible licence later to someone else
2) Getting paid an awful lot less than 75 years worth of royalties
3) If the music really is good enough played by a company indefinitely, why are you selling it in a complete buyout?

Clients often believe that they need to have it as part of their brand identity pretending it's the McDonald's or Intel theme, and will use it forever. Realistically music wont be used for more than 4 years max, generally just a year or maybe two for TV. But clients don't have a clue about this so it's really your responsibility to illiterate that to them.

On the other hand if the client is stupid enough to pay a lot more for music that you know wont be successful, it's your choice...