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#31
3rd March 2013
Old 3rd March 2013
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When Bernard Herrmann was asked to score "Taxi Driver" by Martin Scorsese it was temped with Herrmann's own music....from "Psycho"

"Turn that off!" Herrmann reportedly demanded....

lol

TH
#32
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Soundalikes? Talk to a musicologist. There is no set number of notes you can copy, no set amount of time, no magic numbers, no easy answers except one :

All the original music owner has to do is prove your INTENT. Although "soundalikes" are very common, they are often licensed up front or settled quietly without public knowledge. There are also a ton of them that somehow seem to skate under the radar. But all they have to do is prove "intent" and there's a very methodical way they do that. Via musicologists.

But in your case the intent at this point is pretty obvious. There is ALWAYS a push for the score to "be like the temp", but that is not a soundalike in my book.

A "soundalike" is a piece of music where you KNOW what the composer was trying to cop just by hearing it. Do that and you're in very dangerous waters. If they just want something that sounds and grows and has the emotion of the originals, then do that and you will probably be OK. But if they truly want soundalikes....

I say RUN.....

If your clients client wants THAT music, tell them to license it.
Actually, "soundalikes" is sooo 80's! Back in that time frame, there were more than a few lawsuits pressed (no pun!) against those who tried to skirt around the law by hiring singers who SOUNDED like the bonafide article. However, since their intent was always crystal clear, they were ordered to cease and desist.......or *else*....

The term and method to use today is "style-alike". That is to say, you write with the intent of capturing a genre, but in the end it's still 100% YOU.

Here's one of my "style-alikes" for a cue from "Star Wars".

It's the part where Threepio grudgingly steps into the escape pod with R2 in order to get away from the Imperial Troops. Cue starts with the pod blasting away from Rebel Blockade Runner and ends with the space shot of the escape pod spinning towards Tatooine.

https://soundcloud.com/skyy38/launch-capsule-final

I basically followed the orchestration, keeping in mind that I was still my own man, and did what comes naturally. Compare this with the original cue and not a court in the land would or COULD convict me.

So, toss away "soundalike" and think "style-alike".
#33
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyy38 View Post
So, toss away "soundalike" and think "style-alike".
For those who regularly do this (I rarely get called to do this, but know guys who do this as one of their main gigs) that's far easier said than done. The term "sound-alike" is alive and well. Yours is good advice none-the-less.....

One thing to remember though, INTENT still comes into play and is one of the main things a musicologist will look at if called to determine a copyright issue. It's a slippery slope, and one that I don't particularly want to traverse.
#34
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feck View Post
I was going to say the same thing - "Feel-alike" is what I usually describe them as to my clients. Quality original compositions in the vein of the reference tracks. Much more fun that way anyhow - more creative license.
In the spirit of the above, I give you MY version of both CHARIOTS OF FIRE and TOP GUN in the same space!

https://soundcloud.com/skyy38/fields...te-with-pierre

#35
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
When Bernard Herrmann was asked to score "Taxi Driver" by Martin Scorsese it was temped with Herrmann's own music....from "Psycho"

"Turn that off!" Herrmann reportedly demanded....

lol

TH
...and *rightfully* so.......
#36
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
For those who regularly do this (I rarely get called to do this, but know guys who do this as one of their main gigs) that's far easier said than done. The term "sound-alike" is alive and well. Yours is good advice none-the-less.....

One thing to remember though, INTENT still comes into play and is one of the main things a musicologist will look at if called to determine a copyright issue. It's a slippery slope, and one that I don't particularly want to traverse.
"Musicologists" can't cover *everything*-Intent or no.....

I wrote something that Journey might want to cover in the future, one time.

I KNEW I had it nailed, especially the vocal, but when I played it for a friend, he said "Dude-That sounds just like Pink Floyd!"

Different folks, different strokes.

BUT George Lucas, in his "quest" freely LIFTED such concepts as "Threepio"(Metropolis), "Death Star" (NOT his idea) and the detailed models from "2001-A Space Odyssey".

YET, when the recording sessions for BATTLESTAR:GALACTICA were being held, SOMEBODY felt the need to send John Williams to Stu Phillips Session to "make sure that STAR WARS wasn't being RIPPED OFF"
#37
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Gee Whiz Johnny!

YOU did a note for note thing for "The Desert" cue (Star Wars) from Stravinsky's "Rite Of Spring". ( Watch FANTASIA and you WILL catch it!)

"The Imperial March" was borne of the "Imperial Motif" (Star Wars) BUT a lot of "intellectuals" actually missed *out*. THIS wasn't "ripped" from "Mars, The Bringer Of War"( Holsts-The Planets) BUT from "Swan Lake".(Thank YOU "Carls Junior") Again, *listen*.....

As for the Main Titles , it shares at least the first three bars with KINGS ROW (by Korngold, another of Williams' Heroes).

Oh yeah, did I mention THE PATRIOT sharing "Dino DNA" with Jurassic Park"?
#38
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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So, really , EVERYTHING is being recycled , in the name of "entertainment".

Copies exist, from gen to gen....

BUT Justin Bieber AIN'T no "David Cassidy"....not even *close*

And all of these hucksters TODAY?

Just make us think back on *grander times*
#39
5th April 2013
Old 5th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyy38 View Post
"Musicologists" can't cover *everything*-Intent or no.....
Maybe not, but when they're getting paid huge sums to analyze every note, every tempo change, every key relationship, every melody and counterpoint, every structure of your piece by the parties suing you, they do a pretty dam thorough job. My take is they are pretty good at their jobs.
#40
7th April 2013
Old 7th April 2013
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyy38 View Post
In the spirit of the above, I give you MY version of both CHARIOTS OF FIRE and TOP GUN in the same space!

https://soundcloud.com/skyy38/fields...te-with-pierre

For interest, have a look at recent court cases involving the Black Keys and several companies who did tracks "in the style of". Damages awarded to the Black Keyes in all four court cases because the court felt that people might think it WAS the Black Keys. There is no cut and dry measure on this. Take your "Chariots of Fire" style tune; if it was a current film and Vangelis was the man of today, then it might not be as simple as you'd hope!!

Two years ago I recorded a version of New York New York with a a chap who was paling Sinatra in the West End. The Sinatra estate rejected the recording as they felt that punters wound not be able to tell the difference.

Sound a likes - be very very careful.... especially in the current climate.
#41
7th April 2013
Old 7th April 2013
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyy38 View Post
YET, when the recording sessions for BATTLESTAR:GALACTICA were being held, SOMEBODY felt the need to send John Williams to Stu Phillips Session to "make sure that STAR WARS wasn't being RIPPED OFF"
THAT is the pertinent point. If the tune to pastiched/styled is "in vogue" or of deep pockets then problems might be down the road.
#42
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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John Williams and James Horner rip off a lot of dead composers. Example:

#43
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
John Williams rips off a lot of dead composers. Example:

John Williams is one of the most brilliant composers to have ever worked in film, and if Spielberg asks him for a certain sound or feel Spielberg writes the checks.

TH
#44
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
John Williams is one of the most brilliant composers to have ever worked in film, and if Spielberg asks him for a certain sound or feel Spielberg writes the checks.

TH
I know, there is no music that isn't influenced by another's music.

And when I say "ripped" just mean a strong influence. Music has been borrowed or stolen for thousands of years.

Sorry skyy38, I see you made the same point earlier on this thread.

#45
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Dead composers, and dead publishers and dead estates can't sue you.

One's that are still alive can.


and Do.
#46
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Dead composers, and dead publishers and dead estates can't sue you.

One's that are still alive can.


and Do.
Wow, what do you think will happen when John Williams dies?
#47
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Yep.. just ask Tyler Bates. If he didn't have Warner Bros legal team to back him up, he would have been flogged in court and bankrupt.
#48
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundslikejoe View Post
Yep.. just ask Tyler Bates. If he didn't have Warner Bros legal team to back him up, he would have been flogged in court and bankrupt.
Yeah, but he actually did a cover with lyrics.

#49
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Wow, what do you think will happen when John Williams dies?
I think whoever is the beneficiary of his will will make a lot of money.

So what's your point? Did you just wander in and end up in the wrong forum, or exactly what is it you're trying to say? We're talking about being hired to explicitly "replicate" an exact song, or more loosely 'rip off" the style of specific composers / recording artists. ie: soundalikes. or if you prefer "stylealikes".

If said composer is dead, it's public domain and not a problem - at least legally. (Ethically is beyond the scope of the conversation). If it's the Black Keys or HZ....well, see above.
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#50
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
For interest, have a look at recent court cases involving the Black Keys and several companies who did tracks "in the style of". Damages awarded to the Black Keyes in all four court cases because the court felt that people might think it WAS the Black Keys. There is no cut and dry measure on this. Take your "Chariots of Fire" style tune; if it was a current film and Vangelis was the man of today, then it might not be as simple as you'd hope!!

Two years ago I recorded a version of New York New York with a a chap who was paling Sinatra in the West End. The Sinatra estate rejected the recording as they felt that punters wound not be able to tell the difference.

Sound a likes - be very very careful.... especially in the current climate.
Okay, totally avoiding this now. Turns out the offers I've had to do soundalikes were from cheap clients anyway and not someone I'd want to do business with down the line. Check your PMs, I asked you for some advice about something.
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#51
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
John Williams and James Horner rip off a lot of dead composers. Example:

I've never seen any of the Stars Wars film (but have played the SNES games) and all that sounds very familiar.
#52
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post

If said composer is dead, it's public domain and not a problem - at least legally. (Ethically is beyond the scope of the conversation). If it's the Black Keys or HZ....well, see above.
Just to clarify so there are no mistakes, this is death of composer +70 years before it goes public. There may be special cases where this goes on even longer with living descendants and/or publisher owned works.
#53
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Just to clarify so there are no mistakes, this is death of composer +70 years before it goes public. There may be special cases where this goes on even longer with living descendants and/or publisher owned works.
Haven't heard of any that fall outside the composer death plus copyright period. I don't know of any publisher owned copyrights ( there havent been any wirk for hire piexes that have endured lobgvrnough to see what happens) or any inherited copyright.
#54
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Haven't heard of any that fall outside the co
Poser death plus copyright period. I don't know of any publisher owned copyrights or any inherited copyright.
"Happy Birthday" is still under copyright

TH
#55
8th April 2013
Old 8th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaEtMusica View Post
Just to clarify so there are no mistakes, this is death of composer +70 years before it goes public. There may be special cases where this goes on even longer with living descendants and/or publisher owned works.

Yes. And to clarify just a bit more, different countries throughout the world have different lengths of time after the death of the composer before hitting public domain. So, things can get pretty tricky. Best to have your publisher or musicologist figure this stuff out.
#56
9th April 2013
Old 9th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yes. And to clarify just a bit more, different countries throughout the world have different lengths of time after the death of the composer before hitting public domain. So, things can get pretty tricky. Best to have your publisher or musicologist figure this stuff out.
Why don't you just use your imagination to "cop the feel" without worrying about legal implications?

#57
9th April 2013
Old 9th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
Haven't heard of any that fall outside the composer death plus copyright period. I don't know of any publisher owned copyrights ( there havent been any wirk for hire piexes that have endured lobgvrnough to see what happens) or any inherited copyright.
Publisher owned- just talking about corporate ownership. The work for hire thing will test the limits of the CTEA. My guess is that publishers will not let their catalogs go without a fight.

There are a number of pieces that somehow fall within the grasp of section 17 of the copyright extension act. I mostly see it with religious songs/hymns. They are far exceeding the "normal" copyright terms.
#58
9th April 2013
Old 9th April 2013
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One of my favorite stories is how Bob Dylan took uncopyrighted material from religious songs/hymns, and copyrighted them as his own.
#59
9th April 2013
Old 9th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
You sort of sound like a vulture,
You sort of sound like an ignorant person who can't read.

I mentioned several times, I don't do soundalikes or even stylealikes.

Maybe pick your fight with someone else who does them or who cares.
#60
9th April 2013
Old 9th April 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You sort of sound like an ignorant person who can't read.

I mentioned several times, I don't do soundalikes or even stylealikes.

Maybe pick your fight with someone else who does them.
I was agreeing with you.
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