EWQL/LASS/VSL/first library 1-2k budget
#31
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feelharmonic View Post
DrBill, how many virtual instrument tracks could you max out on your Pro Tools without glitch? You are the first person who would prefer to run EWQL, LASS, VSL on Pro Tools.

Thanks
I'm running them in VEP Pro. And then streaming them into PT via the VEP network. Which from a work flow standpoint is MUCH more efficient - both in RAM and load times. As far as "load times" it's much better than hosting in WHATEVER DAW you run. If your DAW is 64 bit, you can certainly run a large template in your DAW. (PT of course can not being 32bit at the moment.) BUT, I load VEP once in the morning, and then switch cues maybe 30+ times a day - never having to wait for a reload. My PT sessions open up in a handful of seconds.. If I had to wait 5-10 minutes for each cue to load it's template into the DAW.......

Groove and time killer. Works out great. What I initially thought might be just a workaround ended up being a great workflow.
#32
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Yes, but for composer, we no longer have to deliver built PT reels. As long as the stems all start at the beginning of the cue and are properly named with SMPTE time, it does not matter what DAW they were composed in.

MIDI manipulation with large sample libraries is still so much stronger in Logic Pro, Cubase, and DP than PT.
You can speak to your own personal preference, but my real world experience does not line up with yours. I do not know of any composers working on features that deliver in anything other than PT. As for midi manipulation, you learn the ups and downs. Now after a couple of years, I prefer working in PT over DP - and I used DP since before the D so I'm well versed in it. Logic, hate it. Could not ever work in that "envrionment". Cubase? Eh, seems like a half way PT to me, but it's been awhile since I used it.

Again, with changes fast and furious in today's post production envrionment, and even major edits and re-writes happening mid-Dub, being in the same DAW as the dubbers and other post production staff is invaluable. I've been on the Dub stage as an Editor / Ghost composer and gone offline, pulled up hidden tracks mixed them back in, pulled up a VSTi, added a part of two, and gone back online 5 minutes later and had them drop it in under picture. Try doing that by going back to your studio and booting up Logic, or etc.. There are strong irrefutable reasons why PT works better for me. It's not the only way, but it is pro, and everyone else in the post production chain is using it. It makes them feel more comfortable as well, as sometimes, just sometimes, that in and of itself is worth the entire cost of a nice HDX2 system.
#33
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
there must be almost NO pro tools users at all in LA.
Oh really......you think not, eh....

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
VEP will work up to a point. but 64 bit is heaven in comparison. night and day.
See my post above as to why I feel VEP is superior to hosting my orchestral template in Cubase or Logic or DP or PT when it goes 64bit. During the heat of pre-scoring haze, if I hosted INSIDE my DAW it would cost me 2 + hours a day of loading time. Unacceptable. Utterly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
but most of the time you can export a wav with tc on the file name. either way is very acceptable.
Every second, assistant or even runners know how to spot WAV's into a PT session. Do you know how much more grateful and relaxed they are getting an actual PT session with the regions and files LOCKED with the reel starting at the correct time, etc. so all they have to do is track import? That IMO is invaluable in showing your professional attitude and gear, and granting you good raport with the Dubbing staff. And relationships with dubbing staff's make or break a score sometimes. I've seen what happens when you drop off a folder of WAV's with TC in the name......

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
of course.. jay said it better
Well, he said it......
#34
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Yes, but for composer, we no longer have to deliver built PT reels. As long as the stems all start at the beginning of the cue and are properly named with SMPTE time, it does not matter what DAW they were composed in.

MIDI manipulation with large sample libraries is still so much stronger in Logic Pro, Cubase, and DP than PT.
Indeed.

However - I get delivered Logic sessions, DP sessions, Cubase sessions as well as Reaper sessions and of course PT.

The clients who send me PT sessions save themselves £100 per mix as I'm not spending an hour converting their Logic etc session into PT. Of course, on bigger projects I absorb the cost but for one offs its better for me if they are delivered in PT. I work on an ICON system and all the deliveries I make to dubbers are in PT sessions.

SO yes - deliver in whatever you like but it'll get turned into PT sooner or later !! And maybe Nuendo if we head back towards that after abandoning it in N5.

( Why you say MIDI manipulation is stronger in other systems? I haven't really found any different other than workflow - it's all controllers)
#35
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #35
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Damn, I really need to look into getting Pro Tools in 2013.

Currently, I work in Logic and there's no middlemen between me and the film maker or agency. I'm doing my own mixing (budgets won't allow me to hire someone else) but over the last year the budgets have got bigger and my ears are too tired to mix by the time I've written and tracked everything and I think going to PT would save me some hassle in the long run. Or at least having it and learning it couldn't harm?

Back on topic, I've had a lot of great feedback from clients using Logic's built in sample library, from piano to strings etc, using the TODD impulse response in Space Designer (amongst other things)
#36
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #36
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OK, let me be clear, I was not knocking PT (except for MIDI), I was only addressing getting the audio files into PT for the dub did not necessitate someone buying a PT rig solely for that purpose. A time stamped audio file is a time stamped audio file and it simply does not care what it was created in. TC position 01;02;03;04 at 29.97 is TC position 01;02;03;04 at 29.97 is. We are talking about habits here. not necessity.

And sure, the guys with the big budgets probably have it and an assistant to build the reels for them, but that is a small percentage of people and sadly, I am not one of them.

And dammit, I SHOULD BE!

Finally, Dr. Bill I guarantee you I can produce i.e good sounding string parts with my Logic/VE Pro template faster than you can with your PT/VE Pro template
#37
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #37
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so what's wrong with PT MIDI? There does seem to be some myth perpetuated by those who used in years ago!!

It works very very well now and certainly does all the stuff needed to operate and work with VIs and sample sets.
#38
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #38
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Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
so what's wrong with PT MIDI? There does seem to be some myth perpetuated by those who used in years ago!!

It works very very well now and certainly does all the stuff needed to operate and work with VIs and sample sets.
Absolutely nothing 'wrong' with PT MIDI. FWIW I use Pro Tools and Cubase. Cubase for MIDI, PT9 for everything else. The MIDI in PT is perfectly fine, but it still doesn't have as many features/tools as Cubase. I'm not talking about things like the new chord track or anything. I'm talking about basics like editing velocity and CC data. There's just so many more tools and workflow options when compared to PT. Also Cubase expression maps open a HUGE door for developing an ultra-fast workflow.

All that said, I 100% agree about using VEPro....., regardless of what DAW you're using. And I have to agree with the Dr. Your life as a composer will be MUCH easier if you can manage do everything inside PT. I have high hopes for PT11....., because I would love to have it be my only DAW.
#39
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Finally, Dr. Bill I guarantee you I can produce i.e good sounding string parts with my Logic/VE Pro template faster than you can with your PT/VE Pro template
I think the real question is not whether or not you can do it faster, but rather can you do it better. And that is debatable......

Plus, by the time it's transfered into PT and back in Logic/? and back into PT, and then back into Logic/? again for multiple directorial fixes and tweaks....... The time savings disappears faster than a puddle in the Sahara....
#40
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx View Post
Absolutely nothing 'wrong' with PT MIDI. FWIW I use Pro Tools and Cubase. Cubase for MIDI, PT9 for everything else. The MIDI in PT is perfectly fine, but it still doesn't have as many features/tools as Cubase. I'm not talking about things like the new chord track or anything. I'm talking about basics like editing velocity and CC data. There's just so many more tools and workflow options when compared to PT. Also Cubase expression maps open a HUGE door for developing an ultra-fast workflow.

All that said, I 100% agree about using VEPro....., regardless of what DAW you're using. And I have to agree with the Dr. Your life as a composer will be MUCH easier if you can manage do everything inside PT. I have high hopes for PT11....., because I would love to have it be my only DAW.
The editing of CC and velocity data is practically the same within PT and cubase (well - don't know about C7 but we ran Nuendo 5 here and there pretty much no difference; velocity was BETTER in PT for me). There are a couple of things you can do with grouping MIDI and audio together which work really well for some tasks.

The other stuff in cubase - yeah totally. I can get on board with that. I also use Logic a lot and I've read many many people talking about Logics superior MIDI options - but in terms of editing and doing all the usuals, again - nothing between them. There ARE some useful menu functions but not really in general use.

I'm finding more and more there is very little between all of the DAWs.
#41
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busdriver View Post
Also, i read somewhere that some users had issues with EWQL softwares, anyone has feedback on that?
Can't speak for others, but personally I've had no issues with EastWest's PLAY software (both versions 2 and 3) in both 32-bit (Windows XP) and 64-bit (Windows 7) environments.

Also, I know that EW gets a bad rap, but ordering their CCC was one of the best decisions I've made software-wise. While there are certainly newer and better libs out there, particularly for orchestral parts, for sheer value it's hard to beat.
#42
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
The editing of CC and velocity data is practically the same within PT and cubase (well - don't know about C7 but we ran Nuendo 5 here and there pretty much no difference; velocity was BETTER in PT for me). There are a couple of things you can do with grouping MIDI and audio together which work really well for some tasks.

The other stuff in cubase - yeah totally. I can get on board with that. I also use Logic a lot and I've read many many people talking about Logics superior MIDI options - but in terms of editing and doing all the usuals, again - nothing between them. There ARE some useful menu functions but not really in general use.

I'm finding more and more there is very little between all of the DAWs.
Practically the same for velocity and CC data? I would say that's highly debatable. Grouping in Pro Tools does take the cake though. I don't think Pro Tools can do a relative fade on CC or Velocity while keeping all the relative balances in place. If I knew how to link to a YouTube video while using my iPad I would..., but just search Cubase Velocity and watch the 'let's play audio' video. That would be one example of something I've never seen Pro Tools be able to do....., and that would definitely fall under 'general use' IMO when dealing with MIDI. Cubase will also let me use quick keys for moving notes vertically (semitones and octaves) AND horizontally along the timeline. Makes drawing in parts extemely fast. I don't think PT let's you move notes at all with quick keys. They just need to take the 'event operations' window to the next level.

EDIT: Here's that youtube video, go to around 2:05 (also around 3:45) and you'll see what I'm talking about. Honestly asking here, but can Pro Tools do this?

#43
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I think the real question is not whether or not you can do it faster, but rather can you do it better. And that is debatable......

Plus, by the time it's transfered into PT and back in Logic/? and back into PT, and then back into Logic/? again for multiple directorial fixes and tweaks....... The time savings disappears faster than a puddle in the Sahara....
No way you are as good a composer I am
#44
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
No way you are as good a composer I am
"As Good"? Almost certainly not. Better? Maybe....
#45
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
"As Good"? Almost certainly not. Better? Maybe....
Good comeback, Dr. Bill: )

Factually inaccurate, but funny
#46
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker View Post
Good comeback, Dr. Bill: )

Factually inaccurate, but funny

Ha! Well I suspect that no one will ever know. You can't null composers.....
Busdriver
Thread Starter
#47
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #47
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by shponglefan View Post
Can't speak for others, but personally I've had no issues with EastWest's PLAY software (both versions 2 and 3) in both 32-bit (Windows XP) and 64-bit (Windows 7) environments.

Also, I know that EW gets a bad rap, but ordering their CCC was one of the best decisions I've made software-wise. While there are certainly newer and better libs out there, particularly for orchestral parts, for sheer value it's hard to beat.
Thanks for your income Shponglefan, it brings back the core of the topic which is slowly derivating to a PT vs Cubase/logic thread.

Anyway, between people advising not to EVER purchase EWQL products and those saying it works great for them i'm pretty screwed....
#48
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #48
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For what it's worth (I'm not a play user) it seems most of the really contentious problems with play happen to Mac users. Again, take it with a grain of salt. If you're on PC, your odds certainly improve.
#49
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Ha! Well I suspect that no one will ever know. You can't null composers.....
I like this guy!
#50
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx View Post
Practically the same for velocity and CC data? I would say that's highly debatable. Grouping in Pro Tools does take the cake though. I don't think Pro Tools can do a relative fade on CC or Velocity while keeping all the relative balances in place. If I knew how to link to a YouTube video while using my iPad I would..., but just search Cubase Velocity and watch the 'let's play audio' video. That would be one example of something I've never seen Pro Tools be able to do....., and that would definitely fall under 'general use' IMO when dealing with MIDI. Cubase will also let me use quick keys for moving notes vertically (semitones and octaves) AND horizontally along the timeline. Makes drawing in parts extemely fast. I don't think PT let's you move notes at all with quick keys. They just need to take the 'event operations' window to the next level.

EDIT: Here's that youtube video, go to around 2:05 (also around 3:45) and you'll see what I'm talking about. Honestly asking here, but can Pro Tools do this?
yes it can. Cubase does it bit nicer but you can still do it in PT under the event pane. It does do the relative level thing as a linear operation but to do a curve or exponential or gradient relationship shift its all there.

A comment above is right - lets get back to the original question
#51
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Oh really......you think not, eh....



See my post above as to why I feel VEP is superior to hosting my orchestral template in Cubase or Logic or DP or PT when it goes 64bit. During the heat of pre-scoring haze, if I hosted INSIDE my DAW it would cost me 2 + hours a day of loading time. Unacceptable. Utterly.



Every second, assistant or even runners know how to spot WAV's into a PT session. Do you know how much more grateful and relaxed they are getting an actual PT session with the regions and files LOCKED with the reel starting at the correct time, etc. so all they have to do is track import? That IMO is invaluable in showing your professional attitude and gear, and granting you good raport with the Dubbing staff. And relationships with dubbing staff's make or break a score sometimes. I've seen what happens when you drop off a folder of WAV's with TC in the name......



Well, he said it......
heeeeeeeyyyy

pro tools users for film scoring!!!!!! nooooooooooooooo.
very few.
audio post yes, like everyone. you coudnt do audio post in LA with cubendo.

PT 32 bit just doesn't cut it in film score. no matter if you use VEP, bidule with adat loopback or KMS. its just not ideal.


delivering sessions in PT could be nicer i know. since i work in audio post but TC on the file name is good enough. and widley done.
#52
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
yes it can. Cubase does it bit nicer but you can still do it in PT under the event pane. It does do the relative level thing as a linear operation but to do a curve or exponential or gradient relationship shift its all there.

A comment above is right - lets get back to the original question
I know the MRTP window and the Event Operations window (pretty well) and it has some very nice velocity and CC tools, but I never saw anything that will let me draw relative fades like that. I know of the pencil tools for linear and exponential fades..., but none of those (IIRC) keep the relative relationship of what's already there. Unless you're talking about say... lowering all velocities of a selection by 10%. Which PT does in the event pane (or RTMP window)..., and could be considered the same?

To the original poster, IMO you need to choose.... Play or no Play. That's the question. As per which DAW to use...., well...., you've already seen how that goes down. FWIW, I'm all Kontakt based and couldn't be happier.
#53
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
pro tools users for film scoring!!!!!! nooooooooooooooo.
very few.
audio post yes, like everyone. you coudnt do audio post in LA with cubendo.
First NO pro toolers for scoring, now very few??? Keep at it, you're getting warmer......
#54
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #54
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I personally know a lot of successful film/TV scorers in LA. They all mostly have their scores mixed in PT but compose in another DAW.
Busdriver
Thread Starter
#55
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #55
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Thread Starter
Hey guys, while we're at it, could you tell me where i can find a guide for efficient VEP setup?
#56
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busdriver View Post
Hey guys, while we're at it, could you tell me where i can find a guide for efficient VEP setup?
VEP setup is deceptively easy. I think they have some tutorials on YouTube, but it really is quite painless. At least that was my experience using it with PT9 on a Mac.
Busdriver
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#57
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #57
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx View Post
VEP setup is deceptively easy. I think they have some tutorials on YouTube, but it really is quite painless. At least that was my experience using it with PT9 on a Mac.
I think the interest is to use it with a dual computer setup isn't it?
Is it as easy?
Maybe not a tutorial but something explaining the general concept.
Seems to ease the loading of heavy projects and i can't figure how. At least if this imply only one computer.
It works like a daw in slave mode? Can you load non VSL instruments in it?
#58
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #58
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Can you use a PC build to host the VEP Pro stuff and connect to a Mac?

I think the thing is a lot of composers who have been using Logic for years (Mark Isham) probably would use Pro Tools (I know he works in Logic and tracks out to PT) if they had some time to learn it as well as they know their usual DAW.

Clint Mansell uses Logic but from what I've read, he seems to work with a few people who orchestrate all his stuff and programme his mock ups.

When I started out 5 years ago, it seemed like all my favourite composers (Mansell, Isham, Martinez) were using Logic so I just went with that.
#59
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busdriver View Post
Maybe not a tutorial but something explaining the general concept.
Traditionally, we hosted our VSTi's in our DAW. This was/is bad for those with huge orchestral (or other) templates who only had 32 bit DAW's. 32 Bit DAW's can only use 4GB or so of ram no matter how much your computer has.

Additionally, for many, having a 64 Bit DAW is great as you can basically use as much ram as your computer has. That's a GOOD thing. The BAD thing is everytime you open up a session, you have to wait for your template to load again. Depending on your computer, drives, OS, DAW and VSTI's, this can range from 5 minutes to a half hour. Imagine working on a film with the director sitting there waiting 20 minutes for EACH cue to load up. Imagine making last minutes tweaks on 30 cues. Not fun. Not acceptable. At least not for me.

Enter VEP. VEP can run both 32bit and 64 bit simultaneously. Best to run 64 bit, but you also have 32 bit for those VSTI's that are not updated to 64 yet. It will host your VSTI plug ins OUTSIDE your DAW so there are no long load times going between cues, no bogging down in your DAW. That's a GOOD thing. Setting it up can be a bit daunting, and that's potentially a BAD thing, but overcomable and in the long run - worth it.

So, you build a little virtual synth / sampler house inside VEP and outside your DAW. Load up all your favorite sample libraries, save it as a template. Then, you instantiate INSTRUMENT TRACKS inside your DAW and put the VEP plugin on the instrument track. This virtual instrument opens up a internal network between VEP and your DAW. How many you use and how you organize is personal and beyond this brief description. These VEP "Instruments" allow communication between your DAW and VEP. Inside your DAW, you add midi tracks which corespond to each of the individual instruments hosted inside VEP. These midi tracks are delivered to your specific VSTi's via VEP's internal network. They can number in the hundreds.

If you set VEP up right, you can have an individual iinstrument track play a specific sample in Kontakt for instance, have that Kontakt instrument come out a separate output into the VEP mixer, and have the VEP mixer assigned via the internal network to your DAW to an individual Audio Track for JUST THAT INSTRUMENT!!! A DISCRETE individual pathway from midi to final audio for potentially HUNDREDS of voices. (Depending on how many "voices" your DAW can host.) My "midi" orchestra comes back in on about 60-80 stereo audio tracks. This is fantastic.

To make it even more powerful, you can run VEP on the host computer, or host and slave computers, or just slave computers, in any combination and bring them ALL back into your DAW.

It's a fantastic setup IMO. This is the basics, and maybe someone else can add more. My fingers are tired.....
#60
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #60
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Amber's Avatar
 

Just the basics? I'm having a hard time getting my head around that!

I always thought VEP Pro wasn't anything special due to being so cheap.
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