LA Musicians, Studio Owners & Engineers.....

[adam miller]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I don't think London is the real competition for film. If there's time to go to London, there's time to go to lots cheaper places than London.

Scoring is lots more of a crunch-time activity in film than it is for games.

London is the real competition for film. It's the only place that can offer a similar standard of musicians and studios to LA. And in fact the process often buys a bit of time- we score in the day, Aspera the cues to LA as we go and give the mixer over there a head start with the music mix.

The only time constraint is the hours the composer spends in the air (and getting over the jet lag...)

[bassjam]

London has a couple of great rooms! The standard of the playing is sublime and a high profile scoring engineer once said to me that the sight reading of the LSO players is the best in the world. I think the real danger comes from Eastern Europe where you can get the orchestra and an 88R in a large room for less money than just the room in London. Also the Middle East is getting in on the action where a large orchestral studio has been built, ordered a BIG Neve and apparently has built a luxury village to house an orchestra of hand picked players from around the globe! The ruling government will subsidise it all in order to bring some western culture in!

Of cause you should all send your score mix work to Liverpool!

:-)

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I've been told that London is a day rate. If that's true it needs to be part of the calculation. I also understand that only London has comparable concert masters to those in Los Angeles.

London is under a tightly controlled union system - it's just a more flexible union system than LA. It is also hourly - not daily rate.

Vienna, Berlin, LSO, RPO, Chicago (the one USA based orchestra that makes me think I'm in 19th century vienna!! Thoroughly excellent) and THEN, perhaps, LA (although Philly is better IMO). As for the session scene - London again; price is similar to LA, union is easier to deal with, standard is same (with more potential for grabbing yourself a superstar but we have the amazing Isobel Griffith and players like Stacey Watton or Andrew Haveron - heck we had Maurice Murphy!!).....More proper recording venues in LA though..... Next time I'm recording score I will invite you over.

If the AFM sorts its butt out (man - what a drag for USA recording; they're really messing you around) then maybe it'll all work out for LA. But now? <sharp intake of breath>

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by bassjam

London has a couple of great rooms! The standard of the playing is sublime and a high profile scoring engineer once said to me that the sight reading of the LSO players is the best in the world. I think the real danger comes from Eastern Europe where you can get the orchestra and an 88R in a large room for less money than just the room in London.

I agree with the first sentence, but going to Eastern Europe can end up being something of a 'fool's errand!' The hourly rate for good musicians may seem steep for London, but throw a score at them and a decent conductor and six hours later you have a recording. A friend of mine wasted three days in Prague and had to rerecord in London anyway. The really good East European musicians are in Berlin and London.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by narcoman

London is under a tightly controlled union system - it's just a more flexible union system than LA. It is also hourly - not daily rate.

Vienna, Berlin, LSO, RPO, Chicago (the one USA based orchestra that makes me think I'm in 19th century vienna!! Thoroughly excellent) and THEN, perhaps, LA (although Philly is better IMO). As for the session scene - London again; price is similar to LA, union is easier to deal with, standard is same (with more potential for grabbing yourself a superstar but we have the amazing Isobel Griffith and players like Stacey Watton or Andrew Haveron - heck we had Maurice Murphy!!).....More proper recording venues in LA though..... Next time I'm recording score I will invite you over.

If the AFM sorts its butt out (man - what a drag for USA recording; they're really messing you around) then maybe it'll all work out for LA. But now? <sharp intake of breath>

I would add the Philharmonia Orchestra to that list. In my opinion it is a better orchestra than the LSO.
You would also be surprised how good orchestras like the Swedish Radio Orchestra is. The strings there are legendary and as good as it comes IMO. With the London scene being brutal for the players and both the american and continental orchestras facing severe budgetary cuts, we have been seeing principals from orchestras like Concertgebouw and LSO leaving and joining the two main stockholm orchestras.
My feeling is that you will see more and more of EU scores go to broadcast orchestras. Many of them have a genuine desire to diversify and a need to bring in alternative income.


My biggest issue with eastern europe is discipline and major language problems

[Amber]

Hey Narco, maybe after we meet up in London in the new year, if I could sit in on a score recording that'd be great. I sat it on one at Air years ago and hearing the shockingly bad mockups turned into a full orchestra recording made me think 'maybe I CAN do this!'

The only downside of London I can think of is maybe the higher possibility of anyone involved in the score (composer to players) being out of commission with flu in the winter. I have a fair bit of work right now and I'm pretty much avoiding coming into contact with people for this reason.

[Bob Olhsson]

I'm aware that London is totally union and never meant to imply otherwise. London's quality sets the standard but there has never been anywhere near the quantity of first rate scoring facilities and musicians compared to Hollywood. Hollywood has attracted a great many of the finest European musicians with the highest pay in the world. I don't think you can say it's an American talent pool by any means which is not to suggest London's orchestras are all Brits!

I just seriously doubt that much more scoring is being done in London today than was a decade ago although the mix may well include more games. The amount of work in Hollywood is declining but I doubt that there has been an increase anywhere but Eastern Europe. Even then the best musicians there are likely to migrate to London and Hollywood now that it has become an option.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'm aware that London is totally union and never meant to imply otherwise. London's quality sets the standard but there has never been anywhere near the quantity of first rate scoring facilities and musicians compared to Hollywood. Hollywood has attracted a great many of the finest European musicians with the highest pay in the world. I don't think you can say it's an American talent pool by any means which is not to suggest London's orchestras are all Brits!

I just seriously doubt that much more scoring is being done in London today than was a decade ago although the mix may well include more games. The amount of work in Hollywood is declining but I doubt that there has been an increase anywhere but Eastern Europe. Even then the best musicians there are likely to migrate to London and Hollywood now that it has become an option.

Bob, the number of available working orchestral musicians in London is a lot higher than you think.
LPO, LSO, RPO, Philharmonia, Covent Garden, ENO, St. Martin, London Mozart players, (CBSO and BBC phil nearby) BBC concert, BBC Symphony. The list goes on and on with a number of part time top class ensembles.

The number of players at a top level is astounding.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Bob, the number of available working orchestral musicians in London is a lot higher than you think...

I'm totally aware of all that. It's just most people aren't aware of the massive depth of the Hollywood talent pool because few have a public presence performing or touring as orchestras.

[Greg Curtis]

Saving his spot to shed light on the number of films now being scored in London versus decade ago. And inwill provide real numbers as to the decline of Hollywood scoring. Too busy right now to dig up and post links. Will edit in later. Suffice to say for now that Hollywood scoring has seen a precipitous drop in number of films scoring sessions. Most large films are done inlondon now. Low budget Eastern Europe.

The top Session musicians here do not tour. They make far too much convenient money to do anything but scoring sessions and local groups. I've heard a lot of session in the past 3 years in my studio, both live and from London and Eastern Europe during mixes. The Hollywood and London players are still tops, and they each do things a little differently.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by bassjam

London has a couple of great rooms! The standard of the playing is sublime and a high profile scoring engineer once said to me that the sight reading of the LSO players is the best in the world. I think the real danger comes from Eastern Europe where you can get the orchestra and an 88R in a large room for less money than just the room in London. Also the Middle East is getting in on the action where a large orchestral studio has been built, ordered a BIG Neve and apparently has built a luxury village to house an orchestra of hand picked players from around the globe! The ruling government will subsidise it all in order to bring some western culture in!

Of cause you should all send your score mix work to Liverpool!

:-)

Players that are good enough to get tenured work in decent EU or US orchestras will never go to the middle east, with the notable exception of Israel.
Your neve will do you no good when the players are sub par

[Plush]

Stop dissing the Eastern Europe Orchestras!

I'm kicking ass in Krakow and Katowice, Poland.

Can anyone say
"Alvernia Film Universe?"

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Plush

Stop dissing the Eastern Europe Orchestras!

I'm kicking ass in Krakow and Katowice, Poland.

Can anyone say
"Alvernia Film Universe?"

My experience shows them excellent (some more excellent than others) doing classical based works. But when you get into 2012 Hybrid style film scoring.....not so much. Too much noise during the takes, pitch not so good, reading not as good as LA, etc..

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Players that are good enough to get tenured work in decent EU or US orchestras will never go to the middle east, with the notable exception of Israel.
Your neve will do you no good when the players are sub par

Well being in the UK, our Neve has some great players nearby so it's all gravy baby!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I'm aware that London is totally union and never meant to imply otherwise. London's quality sets the standard but there has never been anywhere near the quantity of first rate scoring facilities and musicians compared to Hollywood.

Defo true on the studio front and perhaps true on the number of orchestral musicians (but I'm not so sure) front but I'd still argue that the proportion of what you'd call "top flight" players is more London than LA. Why? More concerts in europe, more of an orchestral culture etc etc and London attracts fly ins for top gigs from all over Europe.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Hollywood has attracted a great many of the finest European musicians with the highest pay in the world. I don't think you can say it's an American talent pool by any means which is not to suggest London's orchestras are all Brits!

It's attracted those who can get the right work permits.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I just seriously doubt that much more scoring is being done in London today than was a decade ago although the mix may well include more games.

Far more games scores are recorded in LA than London for the reasons that far more games are made there! Lot of mid budget films being done here and a lot of AAA movie score too although rather less than there was.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The amount of work in Hollywood is declining but I doubt that there has been an increase anywhere but Eastern Europe. Even then the best musicians there are likely to migrate to London and Hollywood now that it has become an option.

Yeah - true.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Plush

Stop dissing the Eastern Europe Orchestras!

I'm kicking ass in Krakow and Katowice, Poland.

Can anyone say
"Alvernia Film Universe?"

Yes, been there a few times. Poland works; come to Bulgaria with me sometime (and prepare your self). Its some of the lesser low charging orchestral places that are not so great. Dont get me wrong - for the money they are good but that's the problem; nobody should have to work for that money!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Players that are good enough to get tenured work in decent EU or US orchestras will never go to the middle east, with the notable exception of Israel.
Your neve will do you no good when the players are sub par

Already happened. Massive pay offering for a well known european group to go to a peace loving arabian state on monster money for one 60 minute concert per week.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Already happened. Massive pay offering for a well known european group to go to a peace loving arabian state on monster money for one 60 minute concert per week.

I think that is a very different thing, I consider that a recidency which is very different from making everyone relocate.

Which group is this? COE?

[narcoman]

PM'ed you.

[Plush]

Nope--absolutely no equivelancy between Poland and Bulgaria. One is a great classical music power--the other a folk music museum.

I know my business.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Plush

Nope--absolutely no equivelancy between Poland and Bulgaria. One is a great classical music power--the other a folk music museum.

I know my business.

That was my point, Plush... that was my point.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by narcoman

...It's attracted those who can get the right work permits...

Work permits are not a problem for the highest calibre players..

[ThisIsSka]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I think that is a very different thing, I consider that a recidency which is very different from making everyone relocate.
Which group is this? COE?

There are a few groups out here in the sand-pit, but none are jobbing for scoring AFAIK, and I've not heard anything about this residential-village. Guys I've spoken to who've required a live orchestra have gone to Europe.

[Greg Curtis]

Here are those charts I promised:



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I looked at my Stage M tech crew records, and found that Stage M did at least 46 scoring sessions for major films in 1995. In 2005: 17. It's just one stage's tech crew's schedule, so not really useful data. But it does say something about the abundance of scoring that occurred 15 years ago, versus 8 years ago, versus today...

[Greg Curtis]

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Bring More Recording to Los Angeles

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[klaukholm]

Thank you Greg, for sharing this.
It is truly dismal reading

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by drBill

Since this conversation has turned towards unions, I'd love to hear from the post guys how it works with producers going NON-union in Eastern Europe and bringing the product back to be re-recorded with union houses in Hollywood. How does that work? I thought unions were supposed to stand up and support each other. This is a serious question and not meant to start a flame war. I'd just like to know how they can do it when everyone knows the music was non-union.

Are you sure Prague musicians are not unionized?

[drBill]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

Are you sure Prague musicians are not unionized?

No I'm not sure. Good point. But I AM sure their union is not recognized by the AFM, and hence would put contracts on the line in LA. I'm not sure how the producers do a workaround, but somehow they do. I'd like to know how the rank and file union MEMBERS - the mixers, dubbers, SFX guys, Foley recordists, etc. view working on a union project, where the producers have deliberately and methodically cut out the musicians union in the USA. The whole "brotherhood of the unions" thing is out the window.

[Stephen Trask]

Originally Posted by drBill

. I'd like to know how the rank and file union MEMBERS - the mixers, dubbers, SFX guys, Foley recordists, etc. view working on a union project, where the producers have deliberately and methodically cut out the musicians union in the USA. The whole "brotherhood of the unions" thing is out the window.

i'm not sure if sympathy strikes are legal under the Taft-Hartley Bill of 1947.

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by drBill

I'd like to know how the rank and file union MEMBERS - the mixers, dubbers, SFX guys, Foley recordists, etc. view working on a union project, where the producers have deliberately and methodically cut out the musicians union in the USA. The whole "brotherhood of the unions" thing is out the window.

Bill,
I think the AFM needs to readjust their goals.
Instead of fighting the prague work, I would suggest actually negotiating with them to raise the rates across the board and get legit AFM approval in trade.
If it is done right, everyone wins and you stop the senseless undercutting of prices while getting better working conditions for our Prague colleagues.

I know this goes against the protectionist attitudes of the AFM, but I believe it to be more fruitful to embrace the international community as colleagues.
It is counter productive to consider our eastern european friends scabs.
Now, seattle, that is a different story alltogether