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#61
4th March 2012
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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Arksun, you create two extremist points of view, mischaracterizing and misunderstanding mine, and poorly defending your own.

That's fine; I'm happy to totally disagree with you, at this level of discussion.
Poorly in what sense? its the simple truth. No training required in enjoyment of music btw. Not exactly rocket science to know that music is entirely subjective, thats part of its beauty.
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#62
4th March 2012
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Babies and dogs respond to music, sure. Aaron Copland used to joke that that's how he knew whether what he was doing was "good" or not (whether babies and dogs liked it).

However, tonality and dissonance are not givens, as any reflection on cultural norms beyond those in Europe will quickly reveal. Have a listen to Chinese opera and tell me what the "natural" emotions are in the music (maybe you're Chinese and that won't work).

You are assuming things as natural/biological/given that are culturally defined.

The value of education, in any field, is that you begin to understand that what you initially see as the givens in that field are in fact, constructed, and can be taken apart and understood, with sufficient science, methodology and experimental method. This is what gets us to anything, even the wheel and the axle, or controlled fire for cooking, for that matter.

Ignorance is the assumption that the given is the real, the natural, the absolute. At the other extreme, physicists question the fundamental "nature" of matter and energy and what we call the universe, every day.

Do you begin to understand what I'm saying? There is no "happy" or "sad" chord, for instance.... there is no chord! It's a creation. We can have a discussion about whether certain harmonic combinations are more "pleasing" to the ear than others (harmony and dissonance), and about whether the nature of the brain's reaction to frequencies placed together in certain ways are stimulative or sedative, but beyond that, it's all arbitrary, inculcated by where we live and what we do and who we're with, and stating as "absolute truth" that that arbitrariness is a given is the foundation of, yes, ignorance.

That's all I'm saying.

Daft Punk had a piece on one of their albums (Homework?) that was basically the combination of a sine wave with white noise. In "nature," that would be say, a flute with ocean waves.

You can make assumptions about what each does "emotionally," but the fact is that at the fundamental level, we're talking about a single frequency vs. all frequencies at once (which is what white noise is), and an interesting composition interweaving the two. You can dream of seagulls and girls at the beach and feel like you've just had a mai-tai all you want, after listening to it; but all of that is _your_ shtick, not intrinsically embedded in a sine wave and in white noise as "truth."
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4th March 2012
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Originally Posted by Xill View Post
Hans Zimmer in my opinion has 1% the talent of Ligeti, 0.1% the talent of Stravinsky, and 0.001% the talent of Tchaikovsky and Mahler.

Pirates of the Caribbeans lol
That music is epic pompous cheapness from an Hollywood medium that's behind times and has only the commercial mass market as a priority.

Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, that's a lesson in composition.
Ravel's La Valse, a lesson in orchestration.
Seems a pretty silly comparison, given Pirates was the work of a dozen or so composers in a very tight timeframe (a few weeks), and specifically written as a commercial work. Contrast that with Tchaikovsky or Ravel who wrote for performance and would spend a lot longer composing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Babies and dogs respond to music, sure. Aaron Copland used to joke that that's how he knew whether what he was doing was "good" or not (whether babies and dogs liked it).

However, tonality and dissonance are not givens, as any reflection on cultural norms beyond those in Europe will quickly reveal. Have a listen to Chinese opera and tell me what the "natural" emotions are in the music (maybe you're Chinese and that won't work).
Music isn't something that has to 'work' in a particular way, either it touches me or it doesn't. If someone sends me a piece of Chinese opera I'll either enjoy it or I won't. But nothing needs to be studied to enjoy it, nor would studying any theory behind it change whether it has an emotional impact on me or not.

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
You are assuming things as natural/biological/given that are culturally defined.
Your initial post made it sound like you thought musical taste was entirely defined by a, as you put it 'corporate culture'. This is completely and utterly false. My love and progression of music was decided by many factors, including genetics and upbringing, all our life experiences. The records my parents used to listen to and I used to put on myself. The stuff on TV and radio that grabbed me (yet plenty of other tv and radio music didn't), stuff which probably wouldn't be the most appealing to others. My friends are listening to 80s new romantics. Meanwhile I'm enjoying The Moody Blues, Tchaikovsky, Beatles, Beethoven.
What made that difference?. It certainly wasn't some corporate campaign, some clever media trick. If that was the case we'd all be liking and disliking the same music. What , on a country basis?. Want to believe everyone in china not only loves chinese opera but exactly the same pieces in same order of marks out of 10?.

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
The value of education, in any field, is that you begin to understand that what you initially see as the givens in that field are in fact, constructed, and can be taken apart and understood, with sufficient science, methodology and experimental method.
Show the mathematics and science to making a powerful emotional melody and I'll be very impressed. No-ones done it yet and I highly doubt they will. You can teach the basic constructs, scales, chords. But you can't teach someone to compose a melody with the emotional impact of say Ennio Morricone.

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Ignorance is the assumption that the given is the real, the natural, the absolute. At the other extreme, physicists question the fundamental "nature" of matter and energy and what we call the universe, every day.
Ignorance is a lack of understanding. Even the most educated people can make heavy assumptions.

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Do you begin to understand what I'm saying? There is no "happy" or "sad" chord, for instance.... there is no chord! It's a creation.
And yet no one taught me that major is happy and minor is sad. I didn't have a mother that played major chord music and smiled at me for some direct correlation, then played sad music and mad a sad grumpy face so my brain connected the two as such. There was no training there. I just listened to a ton of music, on my own, standing on top of the speakers on the floor watching the record go round and round. Then experimenting on the piano myself.

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
You can make assumptions about what each does "emotionally," but the fact is that at the fundamental level, we're talking about a single frequency vs. all frequencies at once (which is what white noise is),
Actually all I said was that different music touches us as individuals differently in different ways. As for the comparison of sine + noise to flute + ocean. The flute and ocean are completely different to a pure sine + white noise. As a sound designer I understand the differences, and what would be needed to go about trying to synthesize such sounds.

One does not need to make assumptions about what each does emotionally, you just feel it. Each of us in a different way.

Clearly you don't like or apreciate or think Hans Zimmer is very good. And thats fine, each to their own I don't have a problem with that. But to theorise that a person can only love his music because the corporate media conditioned us to like just doesn't tally with reality.

Do you have a family?. If not, imagine a household where 2 kids are brought up in the same house, same school, watch same tv and had to listen to the same records being brought up. One of them loves punk rock and hates everything else. The other is a classical music nut that can't stand pop music.

Two children, same upbringing, yet totally contrasting musical tastes. I guess the big evil dumbing down coporate conditioning engine somehow failed in this household.

In the end it still boils down to you being unable to understand why anyone would feel Hans work is of any genuine merit, so come up with the excuse of 'corporate culture'.
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5th March 2012
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A better post, though you're still putting words in my mouth I haven't said.

I say nothing against Hans Zimmer except that like a few others, while wildly commercially successful and impactful for many of us -- including me -- I consider his work pretty conventional, musically. That's all. Haydn was pretty conventional, too, and wrote 104 was it? symphonies. So you can leave (obviously) my preference for experiment and innovation behind, as you strongly wish to do, that's fine.

While you might see a huge difference between the Beatles and say, The Clash... musically, I don't. They're both great in their own ways, but operate in each case (mostly) within a pretty narrow set of musical conventions. More bracing might be a comparison of the kid who insists on listening to Monteverdi and her sister who'll listen to nothing but Chalga, and head-scratching over why each went their way, but again, I don't see a lot "genetic" in that. Maybe introverts prefer Monteverdi and extroverts Chalga, because of what each music represents in the culture, but that's all. Is Monteverdi intrinsically contemplative music, and Chalga intrinsically dance music? You'd think so on the face of it but again.... all I'm saying is, look a little deeper.

So yeah, even if stuff is, relatively speaking, conventional, that doesn't mean it's "bad," unless you value innovation, as I do, at least in terms of my own inspiration; by contrast, I have the whole Beatles opus on my iPhone, and it'll stay there. I love blues-originated rock, and the British flavor, be it Beatles or Rolling Stones or Kinks, or Clapton, is particularly interesting as it blends clearly, passionately-studied blues musical practice with conventions inherited from pre-rock popular British musical forms, from folk to beer hall. The Beatles especially. That mixture of those two musical traditions, if you will, is the innovation in that case, and it's pulled off wonderfully.

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5th March 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
A better post, though you're still putting words in my mouth I haven't said.
Not really..

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
The things you "touch me emotionally" guys just don't get is that that "result" is entirely from the fulfillment of banal, mass-produced musical expectation, drilled into you from birth essentially by corporate culture. You've been trained to hear certain sounds as "happy" or "sad" or "moving" and just wait to hear your conventional expectations satisfied.
This is a thread about Hans Zimmer after all, and those are your words I responded to directly

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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
yeah, even if stuff is, relatively speaking, conventional, that doesn't mean it's "bad," unless you value innovation, as I do
From banal, mass produced drilled corporate culture to 'conventional', sounds like a change of opinion?. Cause the first description certainly sounds 'bad' to me.

Besides, one mans innovation can be another persons noise. One mans banal can be truly inspiring to another. Again largely fueled by personal taste, individual emotional impact, not something you read from a book.

I love innovative music that I feel an emotional response too. I can't stand innovative music thats been written with the sole intention of being innovative for innovatives sake. You can usually smell it a mile away too. Clever for clevers sake has no place in my musical world, then its just maths. The best music is the most honest music imho.

But I can see we're never going to agree on this as we have wildly differing ideas of what constitues true musical talent, so we'll agree to disagree
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Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
From banal, mass produced drilled corporate culture to 'conventional', sounds like a change of opinion?. Cause the first description certainly sounds 'bad' to me.
It might be that I'm misreading him, but he's not talking about Hans Zimmer when saying that. I got the impression that he was talking about music in general.
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Originally Posted by pastro View Post
Ligeti, Stravinsky, Mahler, Tchaikovaky, and Ravel were not film composers. Different job descriptions. Sounds like you just appreciate "classical" music more than film music.
Stravinsky was actually interested in film scoring until he found out the score would be needed in six weeks, not six months lol

TH
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Shostakovitch wrote movie music.

Yes, I was talking in general, and responding to the tenor of musical interest visible on the Internet these days, nothing to do with Hz.

But anyways, I think we've made our points, we move on. Unfortunate; I'd rather have had a discussion about natural vs. artificial reverb.
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Just throwing my 2 pence into the arena. They is much talk of comparing film scoring (or as it used to be known 'underscoring') to symphonic composition.

I think what Hans is good at is writing music for the medium.

I ask you all what the goal of film music is....I was always taught, and believe that it is there to reinforce the emotion of what is happening on the screen.

"The best film music is that which does not distract from the viewing experience"

You generally go to watch a film....not listen to it, and if you are listening to it, then either the visual, story or music is not doing it's job...imho.

This is in contrast to going to a concert hall to listen to a piece by Liszt, yo go to listen...not to watch!



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6th March 2012
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Originally Posted by brucie View Post
Just throwing my 2 pence into the arena. They is much talk of comparing film scoring (or as it used to be known 'underscoring') to symphonic composition.

I think what Hans is good at is writing music for the medium.

I ask you all what the goal of film music is....I was always taught, and believe that it is there to reinforce the emotion of what is happening on the screen.

"The best film music is that which does not distract from the viewing experience"

You generally go to watch a film....not listen to it, and if you are listening to it, then either the visual, story or music is not doing it's job...imho.

This is in contrast to going to a concert hall to listen to a piece by Liszt, yo go to listen...not to watch!



Peace

Neil
That used to a popular notion, but on further examination, it doesn't really hold up.

There are many times when watching a great film we notice how great the acting is, or a great special effect, or breathtaking cinematography, while not detracting from the film itself. Our minds can multitask.

Music communicates in film often in ways that the visual does not, first of all, music does not have to be interpreted as the visual must...it taps directly into our emotions without our brain first having to say "Oh, OK, I see...that is a bridge over there in the fog."

Sometimes music can tell you things that the film is not revealing (in "Jaws" you never hear the theme unless the shark attack is real...none of the "false alarm" sequences have music).

It's a fascinating subject all around, to be sure.

TH
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Originally Posted by Xill View Post
Hans Zimmer in my opinion has 1% the talent of Ligeti, 0.1% the talent of Stravinsky, and 0.001% the talent of Tchaikovsky and Mahler.

Pirates of the Caribbeans lol
That music is epic pompous cheapness from an Hollywood medium that's behind times and has only the commercial mass market as a priority.

Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony, that's a lesson in composition.
Ravel's La Valse, a lesson in orchestration.
Of course,

You, as a fact, have 0% the talent of Hans Zimmer and 0% the talent of the other composer you mentioned because you are a nobody

You even have 0% the talent of an acknowledged critic because your numbers are boneless and lack the definition of the specific reference points for your 'talent measurements'

You might be one of these offspring from a minuscule public servant family from Middle/Teutonic? Continental Europe, under the urge dropping a few composer names to show off the bit of bourgeois education you got out of the tiny conditions from a deprived middle-class background . . . Well, that's just a guess lol

But hey, You in my opinion are 100% an envious kleine Klugscheisser - Congrats
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Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Do you begin to understand what I'm saying? There is no "happy" or "sad" chord, for instance.... there is no chord! It's a creation. We can have a discussion about whether certain harmonic combinations are more "pleasing" to the ear than others (harmony and dissonance), and about whether the nature of the brain's reaction to frequencies placed together in certain ways are stimulative or sedative, but beyond that, it's all arbitrary, inculcated by where we live and what we do and who we're with, and stating as "absolute truth" that that arbitrariness is a given is the foundation of, yes, ignorance.
Maybe what you're not understanding is that the mathematical relationship between fundamental frequencies and their overtones vs. time elapsed is exactly what dictates that yes... there actually reliably are happy chords vs. sad ones:

http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/musi...010Emotion.pdf
Abstract: There is a long history of attempts to explain why music is perceived as expressing emotion. The relationship between pitches serves as an important cue for conveying emotion in music. The musical interval referred to as the minor third is generally thought to convey sadness. We reveal that the minor third also occurs in the pitch contour of speech conveying sadness. Bisyllabic speech samples conveying four emotions were recorded by 9 actresses. Acoustic analyses revealed that the relationship between the 2 salient pitches of the sad speech samples tended to approximate a minor third. Participants rated the speech samples for perceived emotion, and the use of numerous acoustic parameters as cues for emotional identification was modeled using regression analysis. The minor third was the most reliable cue for identifying sadness. Additional participants rated musical intervals for emotion, and their ratings verified the historical association between the musical minor third and sadness. These findings support t e theory that human vocal expressions and music share an acoustic code for communicating sadness.
Here's the bio on the writer of that white paper:
Curtis - Music Cognition Lab - Psychology Department - Tufts University

Funny, this ignorance you speak of? I'm sensing a great deal from your end of the room. You forget that just because you haven't heard of some evidence before doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Originally Posted by brucie View Post
"The best film music is that which does not distract from the viewing experience"

You generally go to watch a film....not listen to it, and if you are listening to it, then either the visual, story or music is not doing it's job...imho.
Have you ever thought about what it would be like to watch a scene like this:

Inception - Ending - YouTube

Without the music?

The scene would be totally useless. You're missing the point. The point is that the music is an integral part of the experience of viewing a film. How many people watch video without audio? No-one I know of. Now conversely consider how many people listen to just audio that has no video tied to it? Everyone who has an ipod does that... namely hundreds of millions of people on a daily basis.

Purely auditory information is infinitely more powerful than purely visual information from an emotional perspective. The evidence of this is clear as day based within the millions of music playback devices seated in the pockets of nearly everyone you pass.
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I'm confused.... That Thin red Line track sounds almost exactly like the Pearl Harbor theme...or are they the same....really? The ticking....the strings.... Wierd. There may be slight differences but I think it's mainly the same piece maybe arranged differently?
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Originally Posted by alphaproject View Post
I'm confused.... That Thin red Line track sounds almost exactly like the Pearl Harbor theme..
Coincidence?? You decide...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifftrax2 View Post
Have you ever thought about what it would be like to watch a scene like this:

Inception - Ending - YouTube

Without the music?

The scene would be totally useless. You're missing the point. The point is that the music is an integral part of the experience of viewing a film. How many people watch video without audio? No-one I know of. Now conversely consider how many people listen to just audio that has no video tied to it? Everyone who has an ipod does that... namely hundreds of millions of people on a daily basis.

Purely auditory information is infinitely more powerful than purely visual information from an emotional perspective. The evidence of this is clear as day based within the millions of music playback devices seated in the pockets of nearly everyone you pass.
Hi Riftrax

Just to clarify my point, what you have said is exactly what I was saying. I am not saying that a film should not have music, I am saying that the music should reinforce what you are seeing on the screen and not distract you to the point that you think you are listening to music. I was saying that I believe Zimmer is a master at doing this.

You have stated my exact point "The point is that the music is an integral part of the experience of viewing a film." In that you go to view a film not listen to it. Thus music needs to be composed as such and perhaps not in an traditional compositional approach.

Re-read my post and it might become clearer.

Thanks

Neil
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Originally Posted by alphaproject View Post
I'm confused.... That Thin red Line track sounds almost exactly like the Pearl Harbor theme...or are they the same....really? The ticking....the strings.... Wierd. There may be slight differences but I think it's mainly the same piece maybe arranged differently?
Perhaps you were thinking of Gladiator and Pirates of the Caribbean?

Check Gladiator, Especially 5:38 to 6:04


Against Pirates of the Caribbean's 1:31 TO 2:06 - Especially 1:51 to 1:58 which he seems to have lifted from his Gladiator score wholesale.


Haha - he's like the Nickelback of filmscoring. Just keep reusing the formula.

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Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Perhaps you were thinking of Gladiator and Pirates of the Caribbean?

Regards,
Frank
I compared Thin Red Line with Inception i believe. And to quote myself, "they wouldn't recognise the PoTC phrase as being recycled from Gladiator." but well spotted none the less!
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All the comparisons here are banal, redundant and moot... Hans Zimmer makes no pretentions about who he is, what he does or even how he does it. He's a guy getting on with things and living his life. All the other stuff is just blah blah.
Arguments about the emotional/musical worth of a piece of music can be sliced and diced in so many ways that it is futile trying to define it as one thing or the other. There are merits and defaults to most things and the way we understand something is very often dependent on subjective stuff like
perspective/psychology/culture/nurture/experience or the ability to understand context.
Lots of clever stuff being said on this thread but ultimately it's all in the eye of the beholder... much like beauty.
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Hi Riftrax

Just to clarify my point, what you have said is exactly what I was saying. I am not saying that a film should not have music, I am saying that the music should reinforce what you are seeing on the screen and not distract you to the point that you think you are listening to music. I was saying that I believe Zimmer is a master at doing this.

You have stated my exact point "The point is that the music is an integral part of the experience of viewing a film." In that you go to view a film not listen to it. Thus music needs to be composed as such and perhaps not in an traditional compositional approach.

Re-read my post and it might become clearer.

Thanks

Neil
Again, nice in theory, but in practice seldom happens with a great score. No one can watch Psycho without noticing the music, yet it is one of cinema's most famous scores.

TH
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kelvyn nails it.
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Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
Again, nice in theory, but in practice seldom happens with a great score. No one can watch Psycho without noticing the music, yet it is one of cinema's most famous scores.

TH
Agreed. I love PT Anderson and in his films like Magnolia or Boogie Nights there are moments when the soundtrack actually drowns out the dialogue on purpose.

Music in films is multi faceted and at times is supposed to be in your face.
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My thesis is that you aren't, for example in the case of Psycho, listening to the music, the music is reinforcing the images you are watching. You are getting a multi-modal sensory experience, but you are not listening to music in a traditional context. The underscore, is 'noticed' but it matches with the expectation of what the action could sound like.

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Somebody posted a picture of DJ Bobo
I don't like his music either, but he sold a boatload of records and employed many people on the way. He's got my respect.
but what has this to do with music? ok..what has a mc donald cheeseburger to do with food... it dont smells like..thats for sure..
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alphaproject is offline
Yea...I see POTC AWE similarities in that section compared to Gladiator. Of course his POTC soundtrack was not anything I was interested in from the start.

I like his more synth/orch stuff like Inception and TDK soundtracks. They are to me at least different beasts. I think he has switched up his style a little since POTC. I've gottne the consensus that it was a lame score....especially the 4th one.... but I can't put all blame on him because if someone doesn't like it, why not hire someone else just to mix things up, but they had him do all of them.

The Thin Red Line vs Pearl Harbor though.... I mean...it's not just the melody that is the same, it's like literally almost the same thing isn't it? I'm not judging him...I'm asking?
#89
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #89
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2011
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FoxMulderFBI is offline
I like Hans' music no matter what anyone of you say.
#90
6th March 2012
Old 6th March 2012
  #90
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 580

alphaproject is offline
Me 2....I was just asking....regardless he's successful and I'm not.
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