Sounds So Squashed with LOGIC

[kingofthecrate]

Ok...

Im finishing a track on logic. now I am mixing and mastering ITB. the problem that Im having is that with the output master track has a compressor called multipressor. I notcied that its trying to polish the entire mix..


the issue im having with it is on the chorus its really hitting hard and sqaushing the mix and its sounding like crap (to me anyways) the only thing im running compression on it drums and vocals and bass and overheads. when I remove the master mutlipressor I noticed the mix sounds good (compression wise) but it lacks the togetherness of the final mix track output..


any suggestions on helping this mix...???

[theblue1]

You could try using automation (or poor man's automation, slicing and dicing) in order to apply one compression type to one section and another to the rest.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Ok...

Im finishing a track on logic. now I am mixing and mastering ITB. the problem that Im having is that with the output master track has a compressor called multipressor. I notcied that its trying to polish the entire mix..


the issue im having with it is on the chorus its really hitting hard and sqaushing the mix and its sounding like crap (to me anyways) the only thing im running compression on it drums and vocals and bass and overheads. when I remove the master mutlipressor I noticed the mix sounds good (compression wise) but it lacks the togetherness of the final mix track output..


any suggestions on helping this mix...???

My best guesses are that:
1. You are using the pan knobs on stereo tracks instead of the Direction Mixer which tends to narrow the sound.

2. You are not using enough fx on busses instead of channels to "glue" the sound together.

3. The Multipressor is a little ham-fisted IMHO and a more subtle 3rd party compressor, like the Sonaksis, might work better.

You can PM me for follow up as I am in L.A. also.

Logic Certified Trainer

www.jayasher.com

[Musiclab]

What sort of ratio are you setting on the multipressor? I'm not really a fan of the logic plug ins but ratio and threshold and attack and release are very important. Maybe you're hitting it too hard

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

What sort of ratio are you setting on the multipressor? I'm not really a fan of the logic plug ins but ratio and threshold and attack and release are very important. Maybe you're hitting it too hard

thats the thing.. it only has presets.. I just figured it would be a cool shortcut.. dont knock it till ya try it kinda deal..

but I like everything else about the sound of the multipressor..



my track compressors Ive backed down to 2:1 and have the attacks set imedietly to hit and release (not sure of exact number) but the knobs about 11 o clock.


now thats for the drums.. but ive tried to keep everything at 2:1 and keep the threshold at -10bd

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

My best guesses are that:
1. You are using the pan knobs on stereo tracks instead of the Direction Mixer which tends to narrow the sound.

2. You are not using enough fx on busses instead of channels to "glue" the sound together.

3. The Multipressor is a little ham-fisted IMHO and a more subtle 3rd party compressor, like the Sonaksis, might work better.

You can PM me for follow up as I am in L.A. also.

Logic Certified Trainer

www.jayasher.com

interesting..


the only things I have been bussing for effects is the reverbs for the drums and mics and guitars.. and Im using a small delay to widen the bass solo and chorus vocals..



all the other effects I feel should be used in the tracks themselves. but I totaly understand how it could narrow things for me..


Im going to try another compressor for the final output to see if it changes things..

[illynoise]

The multipressor isn't a very good plugin on the buss. I wouldn't try to master in Logic either.

[cdog]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Ok...

Im finishing a track on logic. now I am mixing and mastering ITB. the problem that Im having is that with the output master track has a compressor called multipressor. I notcied that its trying to polish the entire mix..


the issue im having with it is on the chorus its really hitting hard and sqaushing the mix and its sounding like crap (to me anyways) the only thing im running compression on it drums and vocals and bass and overheads. when I remove the master mutlipressor I noticed the mix sounds good (compression wise) but it lacks the togetherness of the final mix track output..


any suggestions on helping this mix...???

Yeah, focus on mixing and let somone else master it.

You should never master your own material if you care about the final product.

Unless you are very experienced.

Take all plug ins OFF the master buss and focus on mixing the various elements of the arrangement.

Seriously.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by cdog

Yeah, focus on mixing and let somone else master it.

You should never master your own material if you care about the final product.

Unless you are very experienced.

Take all plug ins OFF the master buss and focus on mixing the various elements of the arrangement.

Seriously.

your 100% right.. I feel "new ears" would help decipher what would sounds better because after hearing the track a million and a half times. you dont know what your listening for at that point.

but right now were just trying to get it heard. the albums not completed anyways...


but i will definetly do that when the album is done..


thanks

[ersheff]

I actually use the Multipressor in Waveburner (same plug) with some success to "master" my recordings. To my ears, it works OK, but I don't use it very heavily. It seems overly sensitive to me. I mean, I rarely put any of the ratios above 1.4:1, even after raising the threshold. Then I stick the stock Limiter in right after that with just enough gain that it BARELY nips the top off of the big peaks. Sounds pretty good to me for not having any third party plugs or outboard gear. I'm generally light with my compression overall, though.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by mopppish

I actually use the Multipressor in Waveburner (same plug) with some success to "master" my recordings. To my ears, it works OK, but I don't use it very heavily. It seems overly sensitive to me. I mean, I rarely put any of the ratios above 1.4:1, even after raising the threshold. Then I stick the stock Limiter in right after that with just enough gain that it BARELY nips the top off of the big peaks. Sounds pretty good to me for not having any third party plugs or outboard gear. I'm generally light with my compression overall, though.

I havent searched to deep into this but I havent seen any settings for the multipressor. just preset buttons on the interface

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

thats the thing.. it only has presets.. I just figured it would be a cool shortcut.. dont knock it till ya try it kinda deal..

but I like everything else about the sound of the multipressor..



my track compressors Ive backed down to 2:1 and have the attacks set imedietly to hit and release (not sure of exact number) but the knobs about 11 o clock.


now thats for the drums.. but ive tried to keep everything at 2:1 and keep the threshold at -10bd

dont use the presets on the multipressor. tthey make mixes sound thin as hell.

1st try to mix without anyhting in the master. one good plugin for the master is ..
the multimeter. you can see the levels and use it as a guide.


u have to get the mix tight and nicce before aplying any mastering effects at the end.
control the levels with auto mationn so they stay balance throughout the mix and not clip.

after you mix it right, you can add the "add limiter" with no presets. use about -0.5 on the outout with almos no gain and no input gain. so it will only attenuate the peaks. but if u did your mix right there shouldnt be any.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by cdog

Yeah, focus on mixing and let somone else master it.

You should never master your own material if you care about the final product.

Unless you are very experienced.

...[snip]

I'll go with that as long as we're talking about a budgeted project that will be released or is a mission-critical demo.

And I think the experience, fresh-ears, and better-gear-monitoring-environment arguments definitely hold sway.


But for typical demos, personal projects, even low-budget self-releases, I think mastering-it-yourself can be a money-saving option and may be the only option at the zero-budget end of the scale.

And -- let's not forget -- many "mastering engineers" who've hung out their shingles in recent years are simply recording "engineers" who tired of trying to fill their project studios with live projects... or couldn't. For every ME with experience going back to the cutting lathe days and a $100,000+ mastering environment, there are a lot of guys like... well, like you and me.


PS... I'm still uncomfortable with calling what most contemporary "ME"s do "mastering." To me, mastering means cutting the master for a grooved record. CD-mastering means preparing a replication master [P&Q codes, yadda yadda] for CD rep. Back in the vinyl days, the "sweetening" that so many people how refer to as "mastering" was almost an incidental aspect -- a chance to to one, last, quick fix.

Honest to gosh, I think the concept has been rejiggered because of changing economics for mastering houses more than anything else. That's not to say there's no potential benefit, mind you. But it is something of a sea change.

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

I havent searched to deep into this but I havent seen any settings for the multipressor. just preset buttons on the interface

click and drag on the width and 'horizons' of the 5 multicolored bands in the multipressor window. those are the controls. took me awhile to figure that out, but only because i'm an idiot who thought he could proceed without first reading the manual. the old "RTFM" saw is clearly alive and well...

[heathen]

I always associate the word mastering with master, IE: someone who is a master of thier trade,someone who with thier experience can bring a final product to it's full potential, not an amateur.
I can't believe how many so called mastering rooms only have a computer, a set of monitors and some pimply faced kid, that is not real mastering! Sure I do some budget mastering too, but any critical stuff which needs mastering I will take to a real pro. Actually the last time I was there he said "I don't mind if you watch as I know you can't do what I do at home". I looked at him and said "I know , I've tried" with a smile on my face, kicking back on his expansive and expensive leather couch and sitting in his 1/2 million dollar room. At $250 an hour you gotta be comfy.

Nearly every track I've heard come out of logic mixed by inexperienced engineers have that damn plugin on it and it sounds awefull. Maybe get yourself a nice analog stereo compressor (smart C2 or the like) and mix into it instead, you'll get a lot more joy that way and your mixes will sound alot better with practice.

Your not just percieving your mixes sound better without it , they actually do sound better without it, I'm positive on that. As said use more automation as well to control the loudest peaks.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by heathen

I always associate the word mastering with master, IE: someone who is a master of thier trade,someone who with thier experience can bring a final product to it's full potential, not an amateur.
I can't believe how many so called mastering rooms only have a computer, a set of monitors and some pimply faced kid, that is not real mastering! Sure I do some budget mastering too, but any critical stuff which needs mastering I will take to a real pro. Actually the last time I was there he said "I don't mind if you watch as I know you can't do what I do at home". I looked at him and said "I know , I've tried" with a smile on my face, kicking back on his expansive and expensive leather couch and sitting in his 1/2 million dollar room. At $250 an hour you gotta be comfy.

Nearly every track I've heard come out of logic mixed by inexperienced engineers have that damn plugin on it and it sounds awefull. Maybe get yourself a nice analog stereo compressor (smart C2 or the like) and mix into it instead, you'll get a lot more joy that way and your mixes will sound alot better with practice.

Your not just percieving your mixes sound better without it , they actually do sound better without it, I'm positive on that. As said use more automation as well to control the loudest peaks.

that would be great. but right now I dont have 3K to spend on a stereo compressor, nor do I plan on mastering anything in the future. but I will definetly consider it if the oppurtunity arise.

[theblue1]

But maybe you can afford the leather couch... if you don't buy anything else.


I like heathen's association of "mastering" with the master tier of the traditional trade/apprentice system, a master of his trade, as it were...

But, of course, the actual origin of the use of the word in this context comes from what mastering engineer's traditionally did: run the cutting lathe that cuts the master disc, translating the signal off of tape (or from live mixing in the studio before the tape era) that would then be used to create one or more stamping masters. (IIRC... it's been a while. )

BTW... if you ever send a project out for mastering for vinyl release, try to see if you can sit in, it's really cool watching a pro use a mastering lathe... I saw discs mastered at Capitol and at K-Disc... both were cool. Capitol felt pretty glamorous at the time. (K-Disc was pretty unglamorous but educational, nonetheless.) I was a kid, at least as far as the biz goes.

[barryjohns]

It’s always so tempting to put compressors and limiters on the master fader, to get a glimpse of what it will sound like. However, this can be a crutch and affect the way in which you mix. Get the mix as good as you can without anything on the main fader. Mix that down to a stereo 2 track. Pull that back into logic (or another wave editor) and attempt to master that as a feel, knowing that a true professional will get it to sound so much better. I find the UAD Precision EQ, Fairlight Compressor, and Precision Limiter to produce some excellent results for jamming in the car. They will get you very good results, but NEVER as good as a true mastering pro. If you really really like what you got, you can send that as a sample along with the un-mastered audio file for the mastering engineer to get a template for him/her to work start with.

Just my 2 cents.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by theblue1

But maybe you can afford the leather couch... if you don't buy anything else.

Now the couch I have, since I converted my 4th bedroom into a control room and use my living room (treated) for tracking drums. I have a 4 seater couch in that room and its a big ol suker. and eat reflections well, and for some reason or another.. the drummers always fall asleep on...

[kelldammit]

something you might want to check out if you have a little cash is izotope's ozone. or psp's plugs. i'd probably start with ozone, as they provide a lot of good info available as well, by way of tips, etc. it's a pretty groovy plug, and i'm pretty sure there's a demo available.

kell

[heathen]

Originally Posted by theblue1

But maybe you can afford the leather couch... if you don't buy anything else.


I like heathen's association of "mastering" with the master tier of the traditional trade/apprentice system, a master of his trade, as it were...

But, of course, the actual origin of the use of the word in this context comes from what mastering engineer's traditionally did: run the cutting lathe that cuts the master disc, translating the signal off of tape (or from live mixing in the studio before the tape era) that would then be used to create one or more stamping masters. (IIRC... it's been a while. )

BTW... if you ever send a project out for mastering for vinyl release, try to see if you can sit in, it's really cool watching a pro use a mastering lathe... I saw discs mastered at Capitol and at K-Disc... both were cool. Capitol felt pretty glamorous at the time. (K-Disc was pretty unglamorous but educational, nonetheless.) I was a kid, at least as far as the biz goes.

Very true, Rick at TurtleRock mastering in Sydney started out on the cutting lathe at the age of 15, I'll be getting him to do any radio or vinyl mastering we need done in the future, he is one of the best. Actually he's setting up some old neumann lathes he found in some old shed in a country town somewhere in Aus, so hopefully soon he'll be offering his cutting skills again in the near future, it's got a few people round here in Sydney excited.

[TonyBelmont]

Sometimes you just can't fit a square peg into a circle hole... It sounds like you aren't using the right tool for the job, and should look for a better mix bus compressor.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

that would be great. but right now I dont have 3K to spend on a stereo compressor, nor do I plan on mastering anything in the future. but I will definetly consider it if the oppurtunity arise.

In the future though if you plan on saving for one get a good 1 as they will always hold thier value if you need to sell it. I had some expensive digital gear which I sold for a pittance compared with all my analog gear of which some pieces have gone up in value, I could sell these in a flash if I had to.

Anyway I hope the mix works out for you.
Cheers
Heath

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by heathen

Very true, Rick at TurtleRock mastering in Sydney started out on the cutting lathe at the age of 15, I'll be getting him to do any radio or vinyl mastering we need done in the future, he is one of the best. Actually he's setting up some old neumann lathes he found in some old shed in a country town somewhere in Aus, so hopefully soon he'll be offering his cutting skills again in the near future, it's got a few people round here in Sydney excited.

He sounds like a guy who can probably easily wear both mantles.

[emgbiotch]

i would never put a multiband compressor on my mix buss...i only use them for fixing my older stuff...do yourself a big favor, get a UAD card then buy the 33609...that is glue...

[Charlie-O]

Sounds to me like the original poster is usinfg logic express, wich only offers presets on the mutipressor, no tweaking at all. Wich of course will not work for everything.

[kingofthecrate]

Originally Posted by Charlie-O

Sounds to me like the original poster is usinfg logic express, wich only offers presets on the mutipressor, no tweaking at all. Wich of course will not work for everything.

I forgot to probably mention that in the thread. but yes its logic express...


I use it for my midi sequencing and then dump it into pro tools...

[vixapphire]

i don't like the sound of multipressor and tend to use the add-limiter instead while in the box. on the other hand, the preferred tool in my rig is my 1968, which gets the corn creamed in a terrific, buttery way just about every time.

now, at AES a few months back drawmer debuted their new tube multiband mastering compressor, and i couldn't believe the beauty of the results that thing is capable of... of course, it's an $8k piece...

[smilinjames]

Originally Posted by kingofthecrate

Ok...
the issue im having with it is on the chorus its really hitting hard and sqaushing the mix and its sounding like crap (to me anyways)

Doesn't that just mean that the same compression level isn't working for the whole song? Set the compression at a higher threshold (I assume it has that control, if not, I'll give an alternate solution next) and if the rest of the song (other than the chorus) isn't hitting hard enough, program fader rides for all the tracks so they're up (the same amount) during the parts you want louder.

If this compressor doesn't have a threshold setting, then I guess there's too much chorus going to the master buss during the chorus, so fade everything DOWN during the chorus equally, and if the difference between the chorus and the rest of the song isn't dynamically enough for the "feel" you want, equally bring down the rest some, too.

I don't use logic, but any compressor will make things sound squashed if you send them too much signal, and if the non-chorus parts don't sound squashed, it sounds like that's what's happening.

[uncle duncan]

Every ME says 'don't squash your mixes. That's my job.' They can't do anything with a sqaushed mix. Doing a mix with no compression and then re-importing it to squash would be the best route if you need DIY mastering.
Funny thing about mastering. They have a process now, called MS, where the ME's desk decodes the mix into a center mono channel, combined with stereo left and right channels. Then they can process the center channel independently of the L&R, which makes it really easy to mess with the vocal without ruining everything else. If the mastering house you're considering doesn't use this process, it might be a good idea to look elsewhere.