Pro Tools - Offline Bounce

[spicemix]

Originally Posted by mykhal c

opinion only here...but the restriction in LE is 'probably' the TDM code that is at its' core. i don't think some of the things that people harp/beg/plead about from DIGI/AVID will ever be seen/given until there is a re-write of the code for a native system only. again...just my opinion.

One Digi employee thinks so anyway:

Digi User Conference - View Single Post - OK, but seriously, OFFLINE BOUNCE!

[mykhal c]

Originally Posted by spicemix

One Digi employee thinks so anyway:

Digi User Conference - View Single Post - OK, but seriously, OFFLINE BOUNCE!

yep. thanks for the link. i think i actually have that thread bookmarked on the DUC. cats need to realize PT and other DAWs just DO NOT process/handle audio the same. once people 'really get' the difference they'll understand why some things in PT are just not there. and as someone whose been a part of many IT re-writes and system upgrades, unless DIGI/AVID have already started such a re-write (which i DO NOT believe they have) then even if they started it today with a full staff, we would not see it for 3 years...minimum...again IMHO

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by mykhal c

opinion only here...but the restriction in LE is 'probably' the TDM code that is at its' core. i don't think some of the things that people harp/beg/plead about from DIGI/AVID will ever be seen/given until there is a re-write of the code for a native system only. again...just my opinion.

I agree... kinda. Again, what I said was "they could probably do it in LE if they wanted to". Not that it was necessarily easy to do.

It's not the exact same audio engine obviously since it runs at 32-bit float and I'm not sure exactly what TDM has to do with LE. "TDM" is a brand name for a hardware plugin format/architecture that LE doesn't run. What TDM code does LE have?

HD's "TDM bus" is (afaik) just a plain ordinary 24-bit data pipe to/from TDM hardware and plugs. LE has none of that afaik. They may still call it that... dunno.

[mykhal c]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I agree... kinda. Again, what I said was "they could probably do it in LE if they wanted to". Not that it was necessarily easy to do.

It's not the exact same audio engine obviously since it runs at 32-bit float and I'm not sure exactly what TDM has to do with LE. "TDM" is a brand name for a hardware plugin format/architecture that LE doesn't run. What TDM code does LE have?

HD's "TDM bus" is (afaik) just a plain ordinary 24-bit data pipe to/from TDM hardware and plugs. LE has none of that afaik. They may still call it that... dunno.

totally get where you're comin from Lawrence

IIRC LE is 32bit and TDM/HD is 48bit. don't quote me on that tho. been awhile since i looked at the specs.

as far as the code...again speakin' generally...usually when code is written it is done so from the ground up, to a specific spec for a specific application OR existin' code is modified to handle a specific 'whatever'. in the case of PTLE, i think it was the latter (TDM code modified to create PTLE)...thus our failure to see some of the things that cats have asked for for years now. and the more code they add, the more tweaks to the engine in the existin' code, then the harder it is to EVER start much less complete that re-write that is needed to implement some of the features desired by a lot of their user base. again just my opinion but it does come from years havin' been in IT.

[Raygun]

Originally Posted by joeq

In PT you can consolidate individual tracks - making it into one new full length audio track that includes all the edits, fades and spaces and turning them into a single region. Is this what you mean about cleaning up your session before a mix? It only takes a few seconds. Very fast.

Thanks but that's not really what I meant - I want to bounce my tracks with whatever FX I've been using so there is a fresh, uncluttered session when I start mixing.
In Logic, you can also consolidate tracks, or perform digital mixdown in various ways. But I'm talking about a bounce to disk operation. It's basically a mental thing, a way to readjust and to make decisions. Also, it takes a lot of pressure off the computer, which sometimes may be a thing of interest even for HD 3 rig owners..

I also happen to think that on any kind of rig, be it native or TDM but maybe specifically on native systems, the audio is so much better if you perform this. When mixing ITB, I ideally would like to run only pure audio tracks on the mixbus and have as few plugins as possible.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Raygun

Thanks but that's not really what I meant - I want to bounce my tracks with whatever FX I've been using so there is a fresh, uncluttered session when I start mixing.
In Logic, you can also consolidate tracks, or perform digital mixdown in various ways. But I'm talking about a bounce to disk operation. It's basically a mental thing, a way to readjust and to make decisions. Also, it takes a lot of pressure off the computer, which sometimes may be a thing of interest even for HD 3 rig owners..

I also happen to think that on any kind of rig, be it native or TDM but maybe specifically on native systems, the audio is so much better if you perform this. When mixing ITB, I ideally would like to run only pure audio tracks on the mixbus and have as few plugins as possible.

In Pro Tools there is Audiosuite

you can tweak a (real time) plug-in to your heart's content
save the preset
open the Audiosuite version of the plug in
load the preset
apply Audiosuite to the file

The effect is now part of your new audio file - freeing up CPU because all it has to do now is playback.

This renders very fast - much faster than real time. It is essentially an 'offline' operation.

The downside is that I don't think you can do two plugs simultaneously this way. You would need to do each one as a separate Audiosuite 'pass'. But it's so quick, you would have to have 5 plug-ins or so before a real-time bounce would beat it for time.

[Duardo]

I for one do not begrudge the TIME, but my OCD makes listening to the bounce impossible. I have to turn the sound down or on each pass I WILL hear a new 'problem' that needs to be fixed. I will have to cancel the bounce and "fix" it.

Did you ever work with reel-to-reel machines, or ADATs or other modular digital multitrack machines?

First
If Nuendo can do non-realtime bounce, then protool must can either.
There is no way Nuendo is more advance in technology than Digidesign.

however, even with Nuendo, the non-realtime bounce always react less stable than real time; you get to experience some sort of pop-noise and latency issue (sometimes extremely).

Their technology is different. As has already been mentioned, Pro Tools HD systems run on a hardware-based platform, and the LE systems use a proprietary platform that, while host-based, is still based on that real-time hardware platform. One isn't necessarily more "advanced" than the other...they're just different.

And, if the offline bounce is "less stable" (not saying that it is in any case...just specifically in this one)...why would you even want it?

I always find it touching that people who have spent so much money on HD rigs are aggressively hostile to the idea of offline bounce. Lines like these:

...

"It would screw up my hardware inserts."

I'm not aggressively hostile to the idea...there are plenty of features in the system that I don't use...but you're right, it wouldn't screw up hardware inserts. It just wouldn't work, period.

The downside is that I don't think you can do two plugs simultaneously this way. You would need to do each one as a separate Audiosuite 'pass'. But it's so quick, you would have to have 5 plug-ins or so before a real-time bounce would beat it for time.

Also, it's a destructive process...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by spicemix

psycho_monkey please put me on ignore. I will do the same. Thank you.


(For anyone wishing to ignore me or anyone else, click on Quick Links > Edit Your Options, then Edit Ignore List on the left hand side, and enter the username(s) you wish to ignore. The messages will be obscured by default. Wish you could do this in RL. )

I don't want to ignore you - I'm sure you've got. Interesting things to say, interspersed with the dead horse flogging!

[KBOY]

Well, I have personally had a lot of problems with offline bounces using Nuendo. Little noises, static and other such things. Artists calling me up 2 months later after their dumb asses didn't listen all the way through the final cause they were so sick of hearing it and just sent the master to the pressing plant... Oh man that's just not cool. And regardless of their stupidity for doing so it is quite simply MY FAULT for letting it go that way.

Plus, I use UAD plugs. Once you have a ton of those going offline process can actually take LONGER then the real time. At least from what I've experienced.

I have currently found my home in PT, and in the next year will go the HD or what ever new thing they have out. I'm salivating at that new upgrade price. But I have a feeling something new is on the horizon. Hopefully something that will stop all this bickering.

I will never do an offline bounce without checking it after anyways now. So PT real time bounce doesn't bother me.

But thank you for that simple advice for bouncing a mix to a track then fixing things piece by piece if need be. I can't believe I never thought of that.

Duh...

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Duardo

Did you ever work with reel-to-reel machines, or ADATs or other modular digital multitrack machines?

oh yes- started with a 4 track reel to reel

but in those days I did not have automation so I was busy "doing" the actual mix, not passively listening to it go by on it's way to being recorded.

[briangorrell]

Enjoyed reading every post on this thread lamenting the fact Pro Tools (of any flavor) does not allow for faster than real time bounce to disk...

I have been an avid (no pun intended) Digital Performer user for 14+ years. For the past 6 years I have taught DP at my University as well. In addition, we have bounced to disk (much faster than real time) literally thousands of hours worth of long recitals, orchestral concerts, jazz ensembles, etc... Out of thousands of bounces (many with complex plug-ins, including UAD's), only a few times has there ever been any quality control issue after the fact due to a fast bounce. A clean system with good engineering practice simply works.

If we had been bouncing everything to disk in real time, we would still be literally 4 or 5 months behind! Many weeks during the semester, there are actually 10-12 hours worth of music that needs to be mixed, mastered, and cataloged on a final CD. When you need to efficiently mix and master a two-hour orchestra concert in one afternoon, the real-time bounce is a deal breaker IMHO...

Having said this, I have recently upgraded our teaching studios to Pro Tools 9, running alongside DP 7 and Logic 9... Interesting to A/B the programs back to back. Pro Tools 9 certainly has DP beat w/ stock VI's, but that is the only advantage thus far...

Thanks - Brian

[jaymark]

It really is astonishing to think that I am sitting in front of a COMPUTER waiting for it to add and subtract digits in real time in order to bounce a mix down in PT! In Sonar, for example (which I am more familiar with), I can do an offline bounce in virtually no time. Furthermore, each channel in Sonar has a phase button (which PT doesn't) so after my mix is bounced down to one track I just put the resultant track out of phase and spot check it against the individual tracks. Invariably the cancellation is 100%, which I mention for those who still think the only way a final mix can be error-checked is by listening.

I know this horse has been long dead, but my astonishment at this limitation (and the toll it takes on my time as well as the clients') is very much alive and well.

Regards,

Jay

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by spicemix

One Digi employee thinks so anyway:

Digi User Conference - View Single Post - OK, but seriously, OFFLINE BOUNCE!

That Digi employee must not know his DigiHistory....Pro Tools LE did offline bounce for a BRIEF time. Not many people realize or remember this. Around version 5 something. Then the feature vanished.

TH

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

That Digi employee must not know his DigiHistory....Pro Tools LE did offline bounce for a BRIEF time. Not many people realize or remember this. Around version 5 something. Then the feature vanished.

TH

the reason I recall that bounce was always realtime was due to the expectation that outboard gear would be in use- which pretty much disallows offline bounces.

but its been almost 20 years since I was at Digi....

[gearluster]

Originally Posted by jaymark

It really is astonishing to think that I am sitting in front of a COMPUTER waiting for it to add and subtract digits in real time in order to bounce a mix down in PT! In Sonar, for example (which I am more familiar with), I can do an offline bounce in virtually no time. Furthermore, each channel in Sonar has a phase button (which PT doesn't) so after my mix is bounced down to one track I just put the resultant track out of phase and spot check it against the individual tracks. Invariably the cancellation is 100%, which I mention for those who still think the only way a final mix can be error-checked is by listening.

I know this horse has been long dead, but my astonishment at this limitation (and the toll it takes on my time as well as the clients') is very much alive and well.

Regards,

Jay

it's the one important feature I miss from PT

[passmore]

NO DAW can do a Off line bounce with a console or outboard gear connected to it.

Session 8 Mac Nubus ( I think) Or PCI ( pre-Pro Tools v.3 ) did do off line bounce

[oceantracks]

Originally Posted by passmore

NO DAW can do a Off line bounce with a console or outboard gear connected to it.

Session 8 Mac Nubus ( I think) Or PCI ( pre-Pro Tools v.3 ) did do off line bounce

Correct, but not everyone uses a console with outboard, plus, even with a console and outboard, offline bounce allows composers to bounce in place virtual instruments converting them to audio tracks as they go. It isn't just for the final two mix.

[Bob Olhsson]

Why bounce? If you record back to a track as you listen you can make adjustments and record the mix in sections rather than needing to automate everything. It's a much much faster mixing work-flow. When you get done, you just consolidate and export the edited/comped mix track which takes considerably less time than an off line bounce where DSP is being calculated.

[petmar]

It would not surpize me if we not get offline bounce just beacuse the hardware users can't use it. As it always been. I remember when 32 bit files where brought up to attention. A lot of daw's had it but not PT and there was this "no need for that, it just take up space". Now it's a "feature" in PT10. Now, if some of us wants OB, why does it have to be a resistance against that from other users?