Frusterating Logic 7 question about solo and busses and aux tracks...

[Poopants]

I'm finally attempting to dig into Logic, my plan is to use ProTools LE for recording editing & comping, and then consolidating the audio files and moving them over to Logic for mixing.

I setup my environment up to mimic the way I like to mix in PT. In PT I buss things around a lot, for example I send the kick in & out tracks to a kick bus, snare top & bottom to a snare bus (or 2 or 3), toms to a toms bus, etc and then everything to a drum bus, then I also have a parallel drum compression bus. In PT, I can setup the solo buttons to act the way I want, for ex. I solo safe the kick bus and the drum bus so that when I solo one of the kick tracks I can hear it.

Now in Logic I setup my environment with 64 busses and a ton of aux tracks so I could do the same thing, and spent HOURS and DAYS routing and naming all the audio and aux objects so I could setup a template for the way I work. I'm talking everything, like setting up the sends from my drum sample tracks to trigger gates on the appropriate drum tracks.
I even made custom icons for every track!!

Now yesterday I think I'm finally finished so I load in some drums and excitedly start to fool around. Instantly I hit a ro*******. SUCH A STUPID F@#%ING RO******* THAT I WANT TO THROW MY COMPUTER OFF A BRIDGE INTO A SEA OF FLAMING DAW-EATING SHARKS.





HERE'S THE PROBLEM:

When I go to solo any of the drum tracks (or any tracks that have been bussed), nothing else in the bus structure mutes!! In other words, if I have the kick bus up and I solo just one of the two kick tracks, it doesn't mute the other kick track! And if I have the kick bus and the snare bus up, soloing the snare bus doesn't cut the kick bus! The only way to solo something is to go and mute everything else. Also, no tracks are solo safe.

I think Logic acts this way because it assumes you're using aux tracks as FX returns and automatically decides for you that they should never be muted... WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LET ME DECIDE?? All I have to do if I want that functionality is to solo safe the track and send the signals pre-fader! If you have the knowledge to use such a complicated program as Logic in the first place, you're going to have the basic skillset to know how to setup and solo safe an FX return...ahhh enough of the whining....


THE POINT: does anyone know if there's a way to change this functionality and use the Aux tracks in the way I described? It's not like it's an obscure technique, it's just basic f@#%ing routing and organizational structure, so someone's got to be working like this in Logic. Maybe there's another/better way to do this in Logic that I'm not aware of. How are you working with mixing rock bands in Logic and how do you setup your routing?

Sorry if I come off as angry, this is like my 4th attempt at using Logic for serious work and I'm just getting real tired of basic things being really hard to do or really confusing...there are just some things I run into that have me screaming WHY??!!? WHY MUST IT BE DONE THIS WAY???!?!? WHY DOES IT ACT LIKE THIS!?!?










...anyway I look forward to hearing about how you guys buss & mix in Logic, thanks guys!!

[Poopants]

there have to be some logic heads in here that know...

[Poopants]

nobody?? Is this really an unsurmountable obstacle with logic?

I don't want to have to ditch it...

[quincyg]

i think you are running into the way logic handles soloing. soloing in with the track solo buttons behaves differently than soloing with the solo button next to your i/o or using the solo buttons in the mixer window.
In affect there are 2 seperate solo buttons for each track, one mute the output and one mutes the actual regions. hope i am explaining this correctly. to tell the truth it doesn't totally make sense to me.

the only use i have found is that you can mute the outputs of midi on an instrument track without stopping the note playback so you can do mute pulses and stuff like that.

logic is has some really weird stuff.

[Bump Music]

I'm reallly really tired and I didn't quite understand everything you're trying to do, so I hope this helps and makes sense.

Think of Logic's soloing as something different than Pro Tools or a console.

1) You can solo one or multiple regions of audio on the arrange page and they will play through all of their routing.

2) Or, you can hit the solo button on the aux channel in the mixer window or environment window and it will only play what is coming into that buss and nothing after that buss.

I don't really use the solo button on the arrange window, cuz it's kinda annoying and useless.

Hope that helps. Me go sleep now.

[Poopants]

thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to solo in the arrange window, if I solo a particular region it works fine.


My problem is that I have, say, all the drum tracks bussed to an aux track, which is serving as a master fader for the drums, but when I try to solo one of the drum tracks, it doesn't work. The solo button turns yellow, but none of the other drum tracks in the bus will mute. It's as if solo does nothing.

[Bump Music]

Originally Posted by Poopants

thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to solo in the arrange window, if I solo a particular region it works fine.


My problem is that I have, say, all the drum tracks bussed to an aux track, which is serving as a master fader for the drums, but when I try to solo one of the drum tracks, it doesn't work. The solo button turns yellow, but none of the other drum tracks in the bus will mute. It's as if solo does nothing.

Where and what solo button are you pushing to do this? Is it the button on the actual channel in the mixer/environment or the arrange solo?

[logichead]

Post this question on the Logic forum at apple.com

FWIW, try selecting the TRACK you want to solo (not the MIXER OBJECT), make sure all of the TRACK OBJECTS are highlighted and select "s" on the transport. A double-click on the "s" gives you "solo-lock" mode.

I think a "control-click" on the "s" found on the MIXER OBJECT (individual channel or aux object) gives you "solo-safe" for the object.

Upload your template - I'd like to see it.

Best...H

[Ashermusic]

This has already been said sort of but maybe I can make it clearer.

If you solo/mute a buss or aux on the Track Mixer it will solo/mute everything that is routed to it.

If you solo/mute a track going to a buss or aux on the Arrange page it will solo/mute only that track.

Having this independance in Logic is a real plus IMHO.


Logic Certified Trainer

www.jayasher.com

[boody]

Originally Posted by Poopants

thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to solo in the arrange window, if I solo a particular region it works fine.


My problem is that I have, say, all the drum tracks bussed to an aux track, which is serving as a master fader for the drums, but when I try to solo one of the drum tracks, it doesn't work. The solo button turns yellow, but none of the other drum tracks in the bus will mute. It's as if solo does nothing.

Normally, soloing 1 track of a set that's routed to an aux through a buss line or object, you should hear only the soloed track through the aux channel.

The situation you describe sounds like you have assigned the tracks to a track-group that makes a change to one of the tracks apply to all of the tracks. Is this the case? (there's a number then between the trackname and the automationstatus on those channels)

cheers
Budy

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by boody

Normally, soloing 1 track of a set that's routed to an aux through a buss line or object, you should hear only the soloed track through the aux channel.

The situation you describe sounds like you have assigned the tracks to a track-group that makes a change to one of the tracks apply to all of the tracks. Is this the case? (there's a number then between the trackname and the automationstatus on those channels)

cheers
Budy

nope no groups

[Pr.tiouz]

Hello Poopants,

I agree the way logic handle solo is a bit tricky, however i read you carefully and it seems something is wrong with your template because you can setup logic to work the way you describe.

First it looks like in the environement you created only Aux objects and then you assigned the input off the aux object to the busses like aux1 - buss 1 ; aux 2 - buss 2 and so on. and then you use aux for effects "and" for grouping.
Am I right ?
you can check this by clicking on bus with global engaged in the mixer window if you see nothing it's that you didn't create bus "objects".
(to create bus do like you did for the aux, select an audio object in the environement then in the channel selector choose bus#1 instead of aux#1 for exemple )

In logic only Aux behaves strangely with solo, busses don't.

however the only way i could recreate the situation you described "nothing mutes when i solo a track (with the button at the right of the fader)" was by using the solo safe function on the aux channel (control clicking the solo button, a red line appears across the solo button).
you should check if none of your aux is solo safe enabled.

Now to clarify the behavior of logic as far as i know by the way it works on my computer :

bus : nothing special works as expected by me and you (i also use a lot of buss and paralel comp)

aux :

1 - when set to mono (let me say here you still ear the sound in stereo ):
works like bus -> you solo a track it solo a track, you solo the aux it solo's
everything assigned to that aux
if you use the aux for effects it's soloed at the same time if something is sent to that effectfrom the track you solo and only from this track


2 - when set to stereo : it mutes everything even the track soloed

if you use the aux for effect it mutes also what is sent thru the send on the track soloed
what is tricky here is that you can solo safe the aux then the sound reapear but you are stuck with no solo except the one from the arrange

(you may now experiment with inserting mono to stereo plug in the aux channel and ear by yourself all the refinements off many other tricky beahviours off the aux track)

Now the consequence of that :

you can't use the aux for grouping unless you keep them mono or don't use solo in the mixer
you can't use the aux for effects in stereo because if you solo a track it do not solo it's effects with it so you have a kind off AFL but not a solo, and if you solo safe the auxes to ear the effects you are earing all the effects of all the tracks playing along with the track you soloed.

And finally what i do and what i think most of peoples in logic do :

USE THE BUS for grouping AND for effects, but the consequence is "what if i want to send my snare or whatever group to the reverb and not the snare tracks individually ? (because you have certainly noticed bus channels don't have sends)

i wish i had a "send plud-in" in logic but,

the workaround i found is to use the aux channel for that by assigning the output off the bus to none, the input off the aux to the corresponding bus (don't forget to leave the aux in mono what you ear is stereo however and not use plug-ins here, it's only purpose is for sends) and then the output off that aux to the output of your choice.

En resume create a template like this :

track
-> bus 1 -> aux 1 -> output
-> bus 2 -> aux 2 -> output
-> bus 3 -> aux 3 -> output
-> bus 4 -> aux 4 -> output
-> bus 5 -> aux 5 -> output
and so on as much as you need

and everything will work like in protools
but please don't ask me why...

hope this helps
sorry for my poor english

Matthieu Le Roux

[musicjon]

If you upload your template, I bet someone could figure this out.

[Poopants]

Alright let me clarify a bit more.

First of all let me make sure I have the busses and aux tracks setup correctly.
Lets use the kick as an example.
I have both kick tracks routed to Bus 1.
I have an Aux track setup as a kick bus with it's input as Bus 1.
I have the actual Bus Object's output set to no output, because if I route it to the main outs of my DAW, I hear the kick tracks even if the Kick Bus is muted.
The Kick Bus (aux track) is solo safe.
The Kick Bus is routed to a Drum Bus (aux track) in Solo Safe, which is routed to my main outs.

Now when I solo one of the kick tracks, I should hear that track only, playing through the solo safe kick bus and the solo safe drum bus. But the other kick track doesn't mute, and neither do any other tracks going to the drum bus.
For ex, I only have the kick tracks, kick bus, and a tom track's faders at unity (and the drum bus obviously). All other faders are down. When I solo one of the kick tracks, the other kick track should mute as well as the tom track, but it doesn't.
Similarly, if I solo the Kick Bus, I should only hear the 2 kick tracks routed to that bus. But I still hear the tom track, and if I solo the Tom track, it doesn't cut the kick either. In the mix window with my current setup, SOLO DOES NOTHING. Mutes work correctly.

First off, do I have everything routed correctly? Is there some other way I should be setting up my busses or aux tracks? The busses should be set to no output, correct?

In the arrange window, solo works as I would expect it to (which drives me nuts, why should the solo function differently depending on where you solo it?? I'm sure there's a reason, but it just seems unnecessarily confusing to me...enough with the rant...)

I hope I've explained the situation clearly enough, and I hope the problem is just me missing something.

Thanks for your help guys!

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

This has already been said sort of but maybe I can make it clearer.

If you solo/mute a buss or aux on the Track Mixer it will solo/mute everything that is routed to it.

If you solo/mute a track going to a buss or aux on the Arrange page it will solo/mute only that track.

Having this independance in Logic is a real plus IMHO.


Logic Certified Trainer

www.jayasher.com

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by musicjon

If you upload your template, I bet someone could figure this out.

will do in a bit, thanks.

[Pr.tiouz]

Here it is, i've made it simple so every body can understand.
generally i use bus 1 to 9 for grouping and 10 to 18 for effects

look at the environnement in the bus aux section.

as a reminder, by using this method you can use plug-ins on bus, send the sound of that bus treated by plug-ins to effects send the delay effects to reverb.., and still have the solo button pan etc behave normaly or like a mixing desk or like in protools (put yours here).

don't forget not to use plug-ins on the aux channel or you will screw this behaviour.


regards
Matthieu

[Pr.tiouz]

Poopants, i repeat the basic principle, don't use the aux track for anything else but sending the sound of the bus to the effects.

for grouping and effects and insert plug-in use the bus track

[Poopants]

Here's the template. Not totally complete yet but you should be able to see my problem. I hope you have your own tracks to import, I didn't think it would be a good idea to send a bunch of uncompressed audio along with the template...

In my setup my main outs are 5-6 (m-audio interface counts ADAT 1-2 as out 5-6...) so you'll have to change that to match your setup, but I probably don't need to tell you that.

Also, busses A B C & D are stereo busses (A for vox, B for guitars, C for drums & bass, D for all FX)

[Pr.tiouz]

and remember what you will find strange is that the aux track is set to mono but i repeat it's the only way to make the solo function work properly.

but you still have a stereo sound and even the sends from the aux track (set to mono) is sended in stereo to the effects assigned on the buses.

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Pr.tiouz

Poopants, i repeat the basic principle, don't use the aux track for anything else but sending the sound of the bus to the effects.

for grouping and effects and insert plug-in use the bus track

But I thought on bus objects you can't use sends? Or am I mixing it up? I'm going to go check...

[Poopants]

Yeah you can't use sends with bus tracks. What if I want to send the snare bus to a reverb or something?

[Pr.tiouz]

Please poopants reread my post use my template, it's all there...

i looked at your template and it's what i said in may post you are using aux for everything and you have solo safe engaged on them, this way solo buttons won't work

the signal flow in logic is track to bus to aux to output.

what you have to understand is that sends use bus to carry audio and that track output also use bus for grouping so the way to make your project clear is to define a number of bus you use for grouping like 1 to 9 and another for effects 10 to 11 in my template

[Pr.tiouz]

Originally Posted by Pr.tiouz

the signal flow in logic is track to bus to aux to output.

well if you want it that way

[Poopants]

ohhhh I see what you're saying, I would use the bus to control the levels/inserts, and the Aux attached to that bus for the sends. This seems so redundant though...so in order to control the send levels from the mix window, I'm going to have to have the 2 snare tracks, the snare bus for inserts & level control, and then an aux track just for sends??

[Poopants]

Originally Posted by Pr.tiouz

what you have to understand is that sends use bus to carry audio and that track output also use bus for grouping so the way to make your project clear is to define a number of bus you use for grouping like 1 to 9 and another for effects 10 to 11 in my template

I already do that though, thats not the issue

I see your template but how would you use this in practice? If you make a snare bus, do you use the bus object for overall level control of the snare, for solo, and for the inserts, and then use the aux assigned to that bus to send the signal to FX?

[Pr.tiouz]

You absolutely don't need 2 snare track, the only issue in that setup is that you have the send levels assigned to bus (read grouping) signals that de facto are post fader wich is good anyway.

use the send like you would do normaly for tracks exemple send 10 short plate on the up mic of snare, you route your snare mics to bus 2 (snare bus) compress the hell and then add a little bit of reverb on that snare bus by opening a send 10 in the aux 2 wich is placed right after the bus 2.


if you want to flange the reverb on bus 10, open a flange on bus 11 and send the reverb to the flange by opening a send 11 on aux 10 (bus 10 sends).

[Pr.tiouz]

in fact it is like a real console with sends on chanels and effects returns with the extra option of sends on the groups.

what i have noticed is that the latency compensation in logic is really fine and you have all things aligned perfectly with a very complex addition of sends on the signal path; try it with a dry signal and plug-ins set to dry you will ear it's not phasey at all at the master out of logic.

moreover the I/O plug-in of logic works really well on tracks and bus and compensate for latency (i use a lot of hardware effects, comp eq) the only thing it doesn't compensate is for converter latency you will have to measure it, but that's another story...

Best regards

Matthieu

[Pr.tiouz]

Originally Posted by Poopants

I already do that though, thats not the issue

I see your template but how would you use this in practice? If you make a snare bus, do you use the bus object for overall level control of the snare, for solo, and for the inserts, and then use the aux assigned to that bus to send the signal to FX?

Yes that's it bus for everything, aux only for sends of the bus, that's the way i found to have sends on bus and solo button working.

if anybody have a better idea i'm interested

and remenber "aux in mono without plug-in" they will pass stereo however, if not solo behaves stangely, that's were logic is weird

now i must go to sleep, it's late here

[boody]

Originally Posted by Poopants

Yeah you can't use sends with bus tracks. What if I want to send the snare bus to a reverb or something?

the way I use the bus - system is: I don't use the bus objects. I only use the bus to group tracks to an aux. for that you don't need to have a bus-object in your mixer.

Example: tracks one to ten are routed to bus 1, but there's no bus1 in the audiomixer. Aux1 uses bus1 as input. This way I have a clear view on what is doing what. Busses are routing points, auxes are for inserts and sends of groups and effects.

i can assure you this way the solo system works

cheers
budy

[DontLetMeDrown]

Haha. After reading this thread, I'm failry certain I will NEVER use Logic.