Do you agree with Bob Katz...........

[sam c]

track all instruments in stereo?

Mixing Tips and Tricks
Posted on Wednesday, October 11 @ 14:45:24 MST by admin

http://www.digido.com/modules.php?na...article&sid=11

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

What do you do??

Thanks

[djui5]

No..I use mono a lot. Would be hard to get a good center vox if it's tracked in stereo.

[kennyd03]

Quote from article:

"Track every instrument in stereo
For example, even a pair of bongos that are destined to be on the right side of the soundstage will sound better if one bongo mike is panned full right and the other somewhat right of center. This is because the ear decodes the natural space and delays picked up by those microphones, actually enhancing their definition in the mix (if the room acoustics are good)."

I'm wondering if in the context of the whole article, this is more of a "tip" or "guideline" rather than a "rule." (hmmm, I guess you could say that about most music/engineering/production).

I don't track instruments like kick, snare and bass in stereo. But like he says, with bongos, I usually record them stereo and pan it the way he suggests.

-Kenny D

[lucey]

The biggest mix ever is L, C, R. From 3 mono sources. Mono is a good thing in many cases. Track in mono if you want that narrow focus, track in stereo if you want it to have that effect. Yet every stereo source narrows the mix, like every mono source is tied to the mic placment and is what it is.

Neither is better, each unique and powerful.

[Benmrx]

I'll say I don't follow any hard rules, but for the most part (especially since getting the Music Production Toolkit for PTLE...and stereo tracks only eat up 1 voice) I track about 95% in stereo, and have loved the results.

The things I don't record in stereo (usually) are Vocals and Bass. That's about it.

[sam c]

Benmrx, so guitar, paino, etc in stereo? I guess I will have to give this a try.

I read the reference to bongos but the paragraph is defintely titled, "track all instruments in stereo."

Bob, you out here?

[n8tron]

it depends on the arrangement.

yeah, tracking a bongo spread like that might make it sound fuller, but what have you have a huge percussion line, horns big band style, guitars bass piano vocals, bg vox..etc..etc... that bongo is just gonna take up space!

If you have an acoustic with some light percussion and some vocals by all means let that bongo shine.

I find I like the sound of broader stereo spreads but it clutters up the mix easily too if you have a lot of things going at once.

[Roland]

It's an interesting point, but I suspect not to be taken too literally. Intrestingly enough this same point was made by Bruce Swieden a couple of weeks ago when he guest moderated (although he did explain that for obvious reasons he wasn't including vocals in his stereo only method), I'm guessing Bob is making a similar point.

Regards


Roland

[olzzon]

I track most stuff in stereo, but it´s often that i only use the left or right track, if i wan´t a more focused placement of something.
And that the good thing about stereo tracking, you´ve got the choice, you don´t have that if it´s recorded in mono.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by sam c

Benmrx, so guitar, paino, etc in stereo? I guess I will have to give this a try.

I read the reference to bongos but the paragraph is defintely titled, "track all instruments in stereo."

Bob, you out here?

Guitar - almost always in stereo. Lately I've left my cab mic'd up with a PPA ribbon, SM57, and SM81. I'll pick 2 of the 3 for each track of guitar. Now, I will say that I very, very rarely pan those two mics hard left and hard right.

Piano - we're actually pricing out some uprights, and hopefully will have one in the studio by the end of the year. So I can't really comment on that.

[Benmrx]

I'd also like to ad, that one of my favorite percussion tracks I ever recorded was a Tamborine. With a mic about 3ft. from the player, and a room mic as far away from the player as I could get......about 20ft. or so. And panned the close mic hard right and panned the room mic just a tad to the left.

When you factor in the delay from the distance of the mics, the initial transient of the tamborine was on the right (and made a cool stereo sound with the initial transient of the snare on the left), and the decay of the tamborine was more up the middle.

It's been mentioned here before, but when using 2 mics, if you leave one dry, and compress the other carefully, then pan, you'll create somewhat of an auto-pan type deal.

Hmmmmm.....this has me thinking of trying this out on a clean guitar, picking out a simple arpegio......and with that, I'm off to the studio

[t.dizzle]

So what records has Bob Katz mixed???

[taturana]

it's basically what i am used to doing.... what's stereo remains stereo (guit, synths, etc..) mono is for bass, vocals, isolated drums, etc....

never tried to track vocals in stereo... xcept for group vocals...

but lately i've been recording bass through a bass pod and a direct box and i record the bass pod in stereo so that the crossover splits to LR ,and the direct signal goes in mono. and them after processing sum all it to a mono bus.

but tracking some stuff in mono is necessary. for focus as it has been said here...

[Brian Middleton]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

So what records has Bob Katz mixed???

Well....if you check out his Allmusic listings, you'll see "Engineer" credits for records by people like Clark Terry, Phil Woods, Herbie Mann, Gordon Bok, Cephas & Wiggins, Mongo Santamaria, Peggy Lee, Livingston Taylor, Babatundi Olatunji....and since on most of these, there's no mix engineer specifically credited, I assume Mr. Katz can be held responsible for at least some of the mixes. Then of course there's his mastering work....

So, what records have *you* mixed?

[Mike O]

Pardon the link to another forum, but I found this very interesting reading re: stereo: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...3173/0/16/743/

[sam c]

Originally Posted by Mike O

Pardon the link to another forum, but I found this very interesting reading re: stereo: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/ind...3173/0/16/743/

Thanks Mike. There seem to be no set rules, which I guess is the one thing everyone would agree on!

[gsilbers]

tracking alll tracks in strereo is that acusonic recording technique used my bruce swendile. (or similar.)

if you want bongos panned to the right then place the mics in a way that the bongos will be on the mix. more of a natural feel to create more or realistic space.

i didnt read bobs article but i dont see a problem or an issue. some poeple do it some dont. some records where made with one or 2 mics on the whole band some where made using 96 stereo tracks of instruments.

if bob is in the mastering stage and he can hear a difference in tracks that where tracked streo vs mono then maybe most liekly there is a good reason for it.

nowadays you can track bongos using stereo, closed miked and stereo room mics.
you have the inputs and tracks to do so, so why not.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

So, what records have *you* mixed?

Enough to say what I'm saying.

[t.dizzle]

Originally Posted by gsilbers

if bob is in the mastering stage and he can hear a difference in tracks that where tracked streo vs mono then maybe most liekly there is a good reason for it.

No offense to Mr. Katz...his reputation as a mastering engineer speaks for itself. But, it's just his opinion. Think for yourself. Tracking everything in stereo is nutty.

[Tommylicious]

I track mostly in mono i guess..

note to myself: more tracking in stereo

Originally Posted by sam c

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

Screw rules, there's enough off them allready.

Why did you post this thread in "music computers"?

[Studiodawg]

Bob Katz has Grammys. One for spoken word and one for Portraits of Cuba - Paquito D’Rivera...fwiw I track in mono for some stuff and stereo for some other stuff.

[Bob Olhsson]

Bruce Swedian is really into this and Glynn Johns has been known to track things in stereo that most people typically track in mono. My approach for years has been to track to stereo a lot but make certain I can always lose one of the tracks if need be.

I hate wide-pan-potted mix elements like toms and pianos but a real stereo pickup can create a wonderful sense of depth. You just need to make certain everything folds back down well to mono.

[Billster]

IMO you get a much more realistic and lifely soundstage, if you record most elements in stereo - given that you have a good sounding room. Spend some thoughts on how you want your mix to sound even before starting to record, so you can place and record the instruments where you want to have them in the mix (stereowise AND depth). Additionaly to the fact that this will give you convincing results, it´ll also safe you some mixing time since every source already sounds pretty good when you pull up the fader.

But then again there are some elements that better are recorded in mono, because you don´t want them to wander around - vocals and bass are two examples.

These are no rules but guidelines that can maybe improve your mix, if you have tried most everything, but don´t come up with a satisfying result.

Best regards,
Bill

[AlexLakis]

Originally Posted by Billster

IMO you get a much more realistic and lifely soundstage, if you record most elements in stereo - given that you have a good sounding room. Spend some thoughts on how you want your mix to sound even before starting to record, so you can place and record the instruments where you want to have them in the mix (stereowise AND depth). Additionaly to the fact that this will give you convincing results, it´ll also safe you some mixing time since every source already sounds pretty good when you pull up the fader.

But then again there are some elements that better are recorded in mono, because you don´t want them to wander around - vocals and bass are two examples.

These are no rules but guidelines that can maybe improve your mix, if you have tried most everything, but don´t come up with a satisfying result.

Best regards,
Bill

I've been using three mics lately on a lot of sources and placing them in the stereo field a bit beforehand. Sometimes I'll use all three, sometimes two, sometimes one. It gives me options, and if I get it right, sounds very natural.

[thenoodle]

Anybody ever tried piping sampled trumpet etc out to a mono monitor in the studio, stereo micing that and then back to the board or recorder? And then building brass etc sections that way? Waste of time? Cool results?

I haven't tried it but it's always been on my list of things to eventually do.

I wonder if it's true about too much mush buildup (as mentioned on the PSW link) if you get too many stereo tracks with "all" that room ambience...all those room ambiences (or whatever).

[bap]

I believe that (Katz's Grammy winning) 'Portraits of Cuba - Paquito D’Rivera' recording was done using minimalist micing. The band could actually play together at the same time and he could hear well enough to place mics and make a recording of this caliber without the recording crutches that many of us so often rely on.

I believe that I would trust his judgement in any engineering, mixing, or mastering situation. He seems to have the utmost desire to help artists achieve their goals and he does his job with modesty and respect.

We are all servants and Katz is a highly qualified one at that.

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

No offense to Mr. Katz...his reputation as a mastering engineer speaks for itself.

Well , I don't know about Bob Katz reputation, I have friends who are not so thrilled about his mastering work.

That said, people like Tchad Blake are well into mono tracking. And his mixes have great stereo image.


I'm well into thinking there are no rules. lack of vision about music production is the reason why you record far to many tracks, imho.

regards

[RainbowStorm]

There are no rules, but I think always tracking in stereo is generally a good idea. I would take it a bit further and say always track in M/S, stereo and with room mics. It gives you more options at mixing stage which is very important. Overdubbing + M/S + Stereo + Room mics can sound very full and natural. It allows you to use the room more efficiently, hence you don't need to rely on reverbs as much and you end up with a better final mix in the mastering stage. Try, free yourself to new creative possibilities. Stop doing everything "right". Play with power and possibilities and have fun while doing it! I think Bob would agree. Don't waste possibilities due to some rules on the Web. Imagine how much you can color sound by using several mics processed differently. Always using only one or two mics for everything is simply stupid.

Tracking is where interesting stuff is born. Make sure you track such that you can easily discover new things about your mix to get ideas of how to mix it in the most interesting way. This means for instance track many guitar amps, or even better, many guitarists using many amps in many rooms with many mics ha-ha...! You can always find new better options. What options can YOU find?! Good is not good enough, go for something unbelievable! Only natural is a trap, don't fall into it!

<B>SO MUCH OF A GOOD SOUNDING MIX IS IN THE DECISION MAKING PROCESS</B>

You know, at worst you waste an extra mix channel, at best you made the mix rock! Why limit yourself to only a few options when you can make a mix rock by giving yourself a few additional options. Give yourself plenty of options, then choose wisely.

One more thing: HAAAAAVEEEEEE FFFFUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!!!!!

[sam c]

Originally Posted by RainbowStorm

There are no rules, but I think always tracking in stereo is generally a good idea. I would take it a bit further and say always track in M/S, stereo and with room mics. It gives you more options at mixing stage which is very important. Overdubbing + M/S + Stereo + Room mics can sound very full and natural. It allows you to use the room more efficiently, hence you don't need to rely on reverbs as much and you end up with a better final mix in the mastering stage. Try, free yourself to new creative possibilities. Stop doing everything "right". Play with power and possibilities and have fun while doing it! I think Bob would agree. Don't waste possibilities due to some rules on the Web.

I agree. I think there are generalities more than rules. Expirementing is a big part of the fun. On the other hand, I like and am open to hearing what other folks are trying, it can't hurt.

Thanks

[Sirocco]

Originally Posted by t.dizzle

No offense to Mr. Katz...his reputation as a mastering engineer speaks for itself. But, it's just his opinion. Think for yourself. Tracking everything in stereo is nutty.

i agree...

....though i did love his book