Do you agree with Bob Katz........... - Page 2

t.dizzle · 18th October 2006, 03:17 AM

This is probably just another matter of taste. The type of music has a lot to do with recording decisions, too. I'd love to see anybody record an extreme metal band in stereo.

I love the statement about "crutch" recording techniques.

Benmrx · 18th October 2006, 10:59 AM

Looking back on my last post, I feel I should correct myself. I really don't track most things in stereo, but use (usually) 2 mics to get what-ever it is I'm recording to have the depth I want. As in front to back, and not side to side. This is with classic mono sources, such as a guitar amp, single harmonies, wurlitzer, etc.

However, quite often (usually) those two mics are panned from each other......so it's not really stereo (true stereo) at all, but more of a stereo effect.........maybe

illynoise · 18th October 2006, 11:26 AM

I always track in stereo. Why? Because it's fast. In logic, as opposed to Cubase and PT, you can convert back to mono without using a plugin. Sonar allows you to do this also, but it's just easy.

It doesn't make sense to track Vocals or an MPC or an SP12 in Stereo, although you could make a case for it.

When I get four bar loops to track all of the time, stereo tracking is just so much faster!!!

BaseJase
Illynoise

lucey · 18th October 2006, 03:18 PM

Front and back is a great idea, captures the room and allows blending at mixing. Making mono via the box is risky, better to pick one of the 2.

Rep · 18th October 2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bap

... He seems to have the utmost desire to help artists achieve their goals
and he does his job with modesty and respect....

.

So True ...
He always gives help, with Honesty, and without reserve...

Good Guy ... and great at his Job .

.

bob katz · 18th October 2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Lurk

Well , I don't know about Bob Katz reputation, I have friends who are not so thrilled about his mastering work.

regards

I wonder if it's the ones I smashed or the ones I didn't :-).

It's good you have friends, lurker... maybe they'll support you in your anonymous attempts to spoil good reputations.

BK

lucey · 18th October 2006, 04:33 PM

Friends, anyone's advice is only as good as it works for you ... it's a vehicle of ideas on the way to finding your vision through experimentation. If you start to weigh advice based on your subjective view of another's subjective status, you're heading for mediocrity. Stereo everything can be a time-wasting distraction that narrows the mix, stereo everything can be perfect, real and huge. A thousand techniques are used to make a thousand good records. Next question ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob katz

It's good you have friends, lurker... maybe they'll support you in your anonymous attempts to spoil good reputations.

Yikes. I wish everyone to find their best ME for each record, and for all MEs to earn a living. The end. In a fine tuned taste business, we can't win them all but should win the majority. It's not about objective skill it's about communication and tastes merging, and that's always a two way street. Mixers and artists are on a search for their sound, and we try to help them. How on earth don't all MEs get this? Maybe read the book on tone quest, imperfection and subjectivity called "Life".

Next topic please ... this is getting silly.

cdog · 18th October 2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam c

track all instruments in stereo?

Mixing Tips and Tricks
Posted on Wednesday, October 11 @ 14:45:24 MST by admin

http://www.digido.com/modules.php?na...article&sid=11

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

What do you do??

Thanks

Try tracking kick and bass in stereo and press it to vinyl.

Call me back and let me know how that works our for ya.

There are very good reasons vox, kick and bass are 90% mono 99% of the time, even aside from vinyl.

Not all that glitters is gold, etc....

bob katz · 19th October 2006, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam c

Benmrx, so guitar, paino, etc in stereo? I guess I will have to give this a try.

I read the reference to bongos but the paragraph is defintely titled, "track all instruments in stereo."

Bob, you out here?

I'm way out :-)

Yes, I should have modified that.... But if you're hoping to get some dimension in your recording, it's a little late to think about that in the mixing staqe if everything was tracked close miked mono. That's really all I meant... If someone asked me if I had ever written something that said, "you should track all your instruments in stereo" I probably would have said, "what, did I write that?" So some proofreading, or at least understanding of intent is necessary.

BK

bigbone · 19th October 2006, 02:39 AM

I ony track drums (i'm a drummer ) , and i do track in mono all my separate
track (BD,SD TOMS 'OH'S etc,etc )..i will not ever think of tracking ALL my separate track is stereo...................

Bob when you track, do you tack you separate track for drums in stereo or mono ?

mixerguy · 19th October 2006, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Studiodawg

Bob Katz has Grammys. One for spoken word ....... (snip)....

yeah - was that all tracked in stereo????

Sirocco · 19th October 2006, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixerguy

yeah - was that all tracked in stereo????

lol!

t.dizzle · 19th October 2006, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob katz

But if you're hoping to get some dimension in your recording, it's a little late to think about that in the mixing staqe if everything was tracked close miked mono.

That's what digital reverbs and delays are for!

jamsmith · 6th January 2008, 01:50 AM

Thats a pretty wide supposition and a lot of the responses remind of the 4 blind guys with the elephant. One even said tracking in stereo is nutty.

You wouldn't track a piano track in stereo? You wouldn't set up overhead over drums and pan left and right? And just because you recorded in stereo does not mean that you have pan both element hard left and hard right. Then of course there a MS manipulations. And by tracking, do we mean multitracking? Some of the best recording came out of DMP where everything was recorded in stereo 2 mics.

octopi · 6th January 2008, 02:09 AM

No, he actually said "Tracking EVERYTHING in stereo is nutty".

There is a big difference.

theblue1 · 6th January 2008, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam c

track all instruments in stereo?

Mixing Tips and Tricks
Posted on Wednesday, October 11 @ 14:45:24 MST by admin

Digital Domain - CD Mastering & Replication Services

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

What do you do??

Thanks

Bob seems like a very knowledgeable guy.

I haven't read his book or any specific comments about tracking in stereo. So I can't really comment on that specifically.

I will say that mixing a bunch of individual instruments tracked in stereo has proved problematic for me in the past. I've actually pulled back to mono tracking on a lot of stuff. But that's just me and my situation. Perhaps a different room, different mics, different techniques...

(I have tried tracking lead vocals in stereo per an article I read long ago and decided that while, yes, it did give more of the sense of someone standing in front of you, it seemed problematic to mix and was subject to variations from the singer's head movements.)

_________

OK... I caught up with Bob's comments in this thread. Makes more sense.

charles maynes · 6th January 2008, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirocco

i agree...

....though i did love his book

Bob Katz has a lot of experience- but there has been an awful lot of really good recordings done in mono...

to make a blanket assertion as such is absurd- and only lead to the next conclusion of tracking each instrument in a surround format- more realistic? maybe... but most recordings are done for other reasons than that...

Charles Maynes

Factory101 · 6th January 2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam c

track all instruments in stereo?

Mixing Tips and Tricks
Posted on Wednesday, October 11 @ 14:45:24 MST by admin

Digital Domain - CD Mastering & Replication Services

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

What do you do??

Thanks

The section is actually titled: Track important instruments in stereo

Digital Domain - Mixing Tips and Tricks

My appreciation of audio technique and physics has improved 1000% since investing in Bob Katz's book.

bobdaspit · 6th January 2008, 04:05 AM

I track both in mono and stereo. I tend to do stereo acoustic guitars, mono electric guitars (or dual mono), mono close drums, stereo distant drums, stereo percussion, mono vocals, mono bass, stereo keys, stereo orchestral elements. There are always exceptions.

807Recordings · 6th January 2008, 08:02 AM

I do a lot of mixed mono stereo. Synths often in stereo and higher sounds and midrange. But if I hit bass especially lower bass its mono. Lick drums also. Works better for vinyl. However when I had or worked more in Sequoia or samplitude I could change the area of phase on each channel so often they where all stereo and mono below a certain point. Better I found than a one overall phase controller at the mastering stage.

matucha · 6th January 2008, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 807Recordings

...Lick drums also....

now these must sound sLick

I find positioning stereo mics much more forgivable than mono... or at least I can get nice results faster in my small room. In a mono mic, the room comes very fast with the distance. In the stereo I can back off more and it still sounds nice (even collapsed to mono).

For centered things I like to use M-S, the M mic is very solid in every sense and the S let's you add a bit of space around it if needed.

807Recordings · 6th January 2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matucha

now these must sound sLick

I find positioning stereo mics much more forgivable than mono... or at least I can get nice results faster in my small room. In a mono mic, the room comes very fast with the distance. In the stereo I can back off more and it still sounds nice (even collapsed to mono).

For centered things I like to use M-S, the M mic is very solid in every sense and the S let's you add a bit of space around it if needed.

thats another great point. Synthesized sound vs the recording of acoustical instruments and spaces. I also include that in plugins and DAW stuff but we will save that for another day. Many tricks I use for vinyl are because its electronic music. Still even the changing of phase I would not do on anything less than my full-range monitors. (boy I miss my rig back in canada).

Lick drums are the ones that wet your ears

midnightsun · 6th January 2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam c

track all instruments in stereo?

Mixing Tips and Tricks
Posted on Wednesday, October 11 @ 14:45:24 MST by admin

Digital Domain - CD Mastering & Replication Services

I thought the general rule was stereo only when necessary.

What do you do??

Thanks

hummmm...... I can't seem to find the article. The above link takes me to digital domain's home website. It sounds interesting and I would like to read it. Never mind Bob Katz's abilities as a engineer, he is a great writer and educator.

matucha · 6th January 2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 807Recordings

Synthesized sound vs the recording of acoustical instruments and spaces.

I haven't wrote a single thing about synthesis of stereo. Just about a micing technique that may be good even for vocal or bass, because it can be easily narrowed without loosing anything in the center.

Mosby · 6th January 2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixerguy

yeah - was that all tracked in stereo????

With a decca tree.

CKK · 6th January 2008, 07:00 PM

I track EVERYTHING with at least 3 mics!!! - 1 close and 2+, well, not so close.

So I think Bob's right on this one.

Græmatter Audio · 6th January 2008, 08:33 PM

M/S + Logic's Direction Mixer Plugin = best of all worlds IMO

Although I do find it strange that they took the time to add a post pan send and a binaural panning option in L8, but no way to convert the channel pan pot to a direction mixer.

G.

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18th October 2006, 03:17 AM	#31
t.dizzle Lives for gear Join Date: May 2006 Location: Purgatory Posts: 916	This is probably just another matter of taste. The type of music has a lot to do with recording decisions, too. I'd love to see anybody record an extreme metal band in stereo. I love the statement about "crutch" recording techniques. __________________ Clearly def

18th October 2006, 03:18 PM	#34
lucey Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: 7 acres near Columbus, Ohio Posts: 9,965	Front and back is a great idea, captures the room and allows blending at mixing. Making mono via the box is risky, better to pick one of the 2. __________________ Brian Lucey Magic Garden Mastering "beauty resists capture" "the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the ecology" - unknown

6th January 2008, 01:50 AM	#44
jamsmith Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,046	Thats a pretty wide supposition and a lot of the responses remind of the 4 blind guys with the elephant. One even said tracking in stereo is nutty. You wouldn't track a piano track in stereo? You wouldn't set up overhead over drums and pan left and right? And just because you recorded in stereo does not mean that you have pan both element hard left and hard right. Then of course there a MS manipulations. And by tracking, do we mean multitracking? Some of the best recording came out of DMP where everything was recorded in stereo 2 mics. __________________ Screamin' Michael Jamsmith - www.jamsmith.com "You CAN polish a turd, but you just end up with a shiny turd."

6th January 2008, 02:09 AM	#45
octopi Gear Head Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 35	No, he actually said "Tracking EVERYTHING in stereo is nutty". There is a big difference. __________________ They are not guitars.... they are my children. We begin by coveting what we see every day.

18th October 2006, 10:59 AM	#32
Benmrx Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,696	Looking back on my last post, I feel I should correct myself. I really don't track most things in stereo, but use (usually) 2 mics to get what-ever it is I'm recording to have the depth I want. As in front to back, and not side to side. This is with classic mono sources, such as a guitar amp, single harmonies, wurlitzer, etc. However, quite often (usually) those two mics are panned from each other......so it's not really stereo (true stereo) at all, but more of a stereo effect.........maybe

18th October 2006, 11:26 AM	#33
illynoise Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,622	I always track in stereo. Why? Because it's fast. In logic, as opposed to Cubase and PT, you can convert back to mono without using a plugin. Sonar allows you to do this also, but it's just easy. It doesn't make sense to track Vocals or an MPC or an SP12 in Stereo, although you could make a case for it. When I get four bar loops to track all of the time, stereo tracking is just so much faster!!! BaseJase Illynoise

19th October 2006, 02:39 AM	#40
bigbone Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: montreal Posts: 582	I ony track drums (i'm a drummer ) , and i do track in mono all my separate track (BD,SD TOMS 'OH'S etc,etc )..i will not ever think of tracking ALL my separate track is stereo................... Bob when you track, do you tack you separate track for drums in stereo or mono ?

6th January 2008, 04:05 AM	#49
bobdaspit Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 82	I track both in mono and stereo. I tend to do stereo acoustic guitars, mono electric guitars (or dual mono), mono close drums, stereo distant drums, stereo percussion, mono vocals, mono bass, stereo keys, stereo orchestral elements. There are always exceptions. __________________ Bob Daspit http://myspace.com/bobdaspit http://myspace.com/thegoldbrickers

6th January 2008, 08:02 AM	#50
807Recordings Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Toronto-Berlin Posts: 321	I do a lot of mixed mono stereo. Synths often in stereo and higher sounds and midrange. But if I hit bass especially lower bass its mono. Lick drums also. Works better for vinyl. However when I had or worked more in Sequoia or samplitude I could change the area of phase on each channel so often they where all stereo and mono below a certain point. Better I found than a one overall phase controller at the mastering stage.

6th January 2008, 07:00 PM	#56
CKK Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: DK Posts: 483	I track EVERYTHING with at least 3 mics!!! - 1 close and 2+, well, not so close. So I think Bob's right on this one.

6th January 2008, 08:33 PM	#57
Græmatter Audio Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 79	M/S + Logic's Direction Mixer Plugin = best of all worlds IMO Although I do find it strange that they took the time to add a post pan send and a binaural panning option in L8, but no way to convert the channel pan pot to a direction mixer. G.