Logic vs. Digital Performer
Old 4th October 2006
  #1
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Logic vs. Digital Performer

I don't want to turn this into an argument. I have been using logic for a couple of years and am getting tired of the bugs and lack of pro tools type audio editing and tracking. I used dp for a couple of years and could probably relearn it very quickly. I am wondering what peoples experiences are with DP vs. logic.

Seems like logic would be better for audio work, but may not be nearly as good as logic for midi and virtual instruments. My sessions currently rely on exs24 and virtual instruments including atmospher, rmx, and bfd. I would like to continue using my audio unit plug-ins. The real considerations for me are slow down in workflow for songwriting type stuff and I am not sure how to deal with my old logic sessions. i don't think i could convert them to DP.

I am also a little worried about motus problematic drivers and lack of support, but then again apple doesn't have any tech support at all.

I think I would not make this move until i saw what the next version of logic brought to the table though.

Any sage advice will be greatly appreciated. I can also say that I am really sick of switching audio apps. I think my path has been vision to studio vision to digital performer to pro tools to logic and now...
Old 4th October 2006
  #2
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

I never had any issues with any MOTU driver, not for the 828 I had nor the Fastlane USB interface, both worked flawlessly... Maybe you just had bad luck...

Why are you so keen on replaying your old projects? I'd say render most of it as audio to archive them, or for a remix in another application... or keep the software + OS you're using now as a backup too (and store the computer when you buy a new one )

I don't have much Logic Pro experience but Digital Performer is a nice application. Almost all editting commands and workflows I know from PT can be done with DP as well, I also assigned the same keys to them in the Commands window...

Digital Performer supports Audio Unit's so using the plugs you've got isn't going to be a problem. You'd only have to find a replacement for the EXS24, Mach Five would be the obvious choice here...

Drawbacks, Logic seems better optimized, that's the impression I get from users of both apps, though not so strange considering that it's an Apple application and it might not be such an issue with todays fast computers anymore.

Other drawback DP can be a bit sluggish, but a fast computer helps and it seems to get snappier with every new version too.

You could also stick with Logic and find workarounds for its shortcomings... No DAW is perfect... but it's possible to get great results with all of them...
Old 4th October 2006
  #3
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thermos's Avatar
I love dp. The gui alone keeps me sane. It is a little sluggish when the plugin gets huge. But besides that........Editing is great, not too buggy, and I've found the support to be great actually.
Old 4th October 2006
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
My sessions currently rely on exs24 and virtual instruments including atmospher, rmx, and bfd. I would like to continue using my audio unit plug-ins.
All of your third-party AU plugins and VIs will run in DP. EXS24 does not run in DP, as you'd expect given it's a Logic component, so you'd need another soft sampler like NI Kontakt or MOTU MachFive (both work fine in DP).

Quote:
I am also a little worried about motus problematic drivers and lack of support, but then again apple doesn't have any tech support at all.
Does MOTU have a bad reputation for software drivers (I mean, any wose than any other software company)? I've used DP for years and have never run into any problems. I don't use MOTU hardware.
Old 4th October 2006
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispick View Post
All of your third-party AU plugins and VIs will run in DP. EXS224 does not run in DP, as you'd expect given it's a Logic component, so you'd need another soft samplers like NI Kontakt or MOTU MachFive (both work fine in DP).



Does MOTU have a bad reputation for software drivers (I mean, any wose than any other software company)? I've used DP for years and have never run into any problems. I don't use MOTU hardware.

I ha a bad time with the core audio drivers for my micro express when i switched to osx. crashes and stuck notes. i finally after trying many driver versions and several motu interfaces bought a unitor 8 and that fixed everything. motu wasnt answering phones and would take 1-2 weeks to reply to an email and even then would give responses that were not helpful, like trash prefs and try again.

how is stability, bugginess and session corruption with dp? I find myself having to be very careful what i do in logic. if i move too fast it will crash. for example i tried to load a quicktime mov during playback today. i knew i was asking for trouble and was right. crashed session. maybe i shouldn't expect this kind of thing to work with any app.

i also found machfive to be buggy under dae, but so was logic. is it easy to customize dp now? track heights, colors, key commands?

i tried kontakt in the initial release and it was also very buggy.

does anyone know if any of these samplers will load my exs libraries directly without having to convert them? also how is the search functionality for mach5?
Old 5th October 2006
  #6
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I too came from StudioVision (actually from Mastertracks pro, to Texture-amiga, to cubase atari...but I digress). Anyway, that means you should know the drill. I've run into the same problems you described when using DP, and even the normally rocksolid PT has let me down a couple times.

It's during these times I think about switching to Logic, but I just know that even if it fixes some things I hate about DP or PT, some other thing about it will piss me off. So the trick is to resist, and hope the update to DP will arrive soon after (since it's always behind Logic ).

As far as drivers are concerned, motu has been great. And probably not because they have that great drivers, but probably because I'm using it with DP. It's probably why unitor works better with Logic, and the Digi hardware pretty much screws up everything else unless you're using it with PT. So stick with the company's hardware, though I am now going against my own advice by picking up Apogee's Symphony, since nothing else out there has its ability.

So I'd say maybe try resolving conflicts maybe by upgrading hardware, since you've already switched several times. These apps nowadays are pretty close to one another that you'd be better off looking at the improving the other aspects of your studio (interfaces,monitors, mics, lcd monitors...)
Old 5th October 2006
  #7
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actually my hardware is fine now. i am mainly hoping for an app that does the things i need it for well and is fairly stable. my main beef with logic is the audioah ndling. i really like take lists ala pro tools and i can't get used to folders as a way to track drums. i also miss grid based selection which logic has sort of implemented but not quite the way i would like it.
on the other hand i love the midi tools like the velocity tool, being able to mute individual midi notes.

i find it extremely cumbersome to rearrange song sections in logic, although again people will argue that rubber banding all regions is great for them or packing a folder is the trick. these methods are not functional for me. i would love an app where i can copy and move a chorus in 30 secs cleanly. it takes minutes for me in logic and tends to screw up automation.

i also miss the automation wave forms from dp and pt.

so i am kind of thinking that dp may be the best compromise.
Old 5th October 2006
  #8
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i'm going the other way coming from dp to logic, at least trying to.

I don't like dp's gui that much compared to logic except for the matrix editor. I think dps matrix editor is the best of any daw. The way it has the tracks window and then the editor window doesn't make much sense to me. other than that, i found that logic is more stable, but dp 5 is supposed to be much better. And yeah, dp edits audio a bit better than logic.
Old 5th October 2006
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n8tron View Post
i'm going the other way coming from dp to logic, at least trying to.

I don't like dp's gui that much compared to logic except for the matrix editor. I think dps matrix editor is the best of any daw. The way it has the tracks window and then the editor window doesn't make much sense to me. other than that, i found that logic is more stable, but dp 5 is supposed to be much better. And yeah, dp edits audio a bit better than logic.
what is your reason for going to logic? the fact that logic is more stable for you kinda scares me. can't you seperate the tracks window from the editor window???
Old 5th October 2006
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
also how is the search functionality for mach5?
Quite bad. Its file-management is probably the weakest element in my experience.

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 5th October 2006
  #11
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Thread Starter
i'm messing around with dp5. the good news is that i used to know dp3 quite well and think i could learn 5 very quickly. so far things i like better than logic are grouping that works and track automation that is nice. also everything seems to behave as you would expect. logic is kind of bizarre sometimes. in general it would appear that dp is much more like pt than logic is. in my case i think this is a good thing.

i have some dp questions though:
1. how do you adjust the track heights in the tracks window?
2. how do you change inputs for multiple channels simultaneously?
3. in the sequence window is there a way to put the comments box next to the track. it seems to just be a pop up window by default.
4.can i add solo buttons or is there just that weird solo master toggle? that is the first bizarre feature i have noticed.
5.sort of a repeat of question one. i can't read the tiny text in the tracks window. please tell me there is a way to scale this page. please.
6. zooming in the sequence editor doesn't make the notes bigger, but the background area gets bigger. am i missing something?
7. how do you edit note velocities in dp? is the only way to drag the tiny little velocity dots?
8. how do you make a movie stay as a floating window on top of all other windows?
9.how do you set a start point in the middle of a movie clip? say i want 10 minutes into a movie clip to hit at bar one.

doh! why can't anyone get it right with these apps. maybe the question is, who is making faster strides to improve on their app, apple or motu?
seems like dp needs a bit more customization options and logic needs more of its basics cleaned up.
Old 5th October 2006
  #12
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Quincyg,

I have tried DP a while back and even though i think it's a good program and probably the only one i'd go to if Logic Pro were to seize to be supported there were some fundamental things that were damn annoying about he program !

First moving around parts is an art on that program , highlight the wrong section and you could easily miss a couple of notes , no blocks like Logic or Cubase to move around , not sure if this has changed....

Can expand parts only horizontally not vertically , not sure if this has changed.....

At the time no tools to speak of , not sure what they have now ......

Copying sections was another art ......

There were quite a few things that are basic in other programs that were needlessly more complex in DP ......

Someone who knows the current version of DP can tell you whether these things have been fixed but for me were a real let down at the time....

if you do take the plundge you might want to check out Ultimate Sound Banks new sampler .....looks pretty good .

Hope some of this helped...
Old 5th October 2006
  #13
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post
Copying sections was another art ......

There were quite a few things that are basic in other programs that were needlessly more complex in DP ......

Someone who knows the current version of DP can tell you whether these things have been fixed but for me were a real let down at the time....
...
I am not sure how it was before, but since V4 editting can be done almost in the same ways as in PT...

You can group tracks for drumedits and you can make the arrow keys jump from soundbit/region to region and from track to track for fast copy paste of sections of audio...
Old 5th October 2006
  #14
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jeronimo's Avatar
Does DP have something like PT's tab to transient?
Old 5th October 2006
  #15
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ttauri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
i have some dp questions though:
1. how do you adjust the track heights in the tracks window?
2. how do you change inputs for multiple channels simultaneously?
3. in the sequence window is there a way to put the comments box next to the track. it seems to just be a pop up window by default.
4.can i add solo buttons or is there just that weird solo master toggle? that is the first bizarre feature i have noticed.
5.sort of a repeat of question one. i can't read the tiny text in the tracks window. please tell me there is a way to scale this page. please.
6. zooming in the sequence editor doesn't make the notes bigger, but the background area gets bigger. am i missing something?
7. how do you edit note velocities in dp? is the only way to drag the tiny little velocity dots?
8. how do you make a movie stay as a floating window on top of all other windows?
9.how do you set a start point in the middle of a movie clip? say i want 10 minutes into a movie clip to hit at bar one.
Fairly recent switchee from Logic, so may be corrected by a more seasoned user, but as far as I know (for the ones I know):

1. You can't
2. Love to know this one myself!
3. Dunno
4. Think it's just the master toggle.
5. Nope
6. There's a little magnifying glass icon a little to the right of the pull-down with the size choices (in the gray section just before the matrix)
7. Not sure what else besides the "change velocity" panel in the region menu
8. dunno
9. dunno

Peece,
T. Tauri

[edit] You may want to visit the Unicornation forums for answers [/edit]

Last edited by ttauri; 5th October 2006 at 03:19 PM.. Reason: adding comment
Old 5th October 2006
  #16
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Thread Starter
thanks for those replies tauri.

i think these are the answers to a few of my own questions:

6)the notes zoom in the midi editor, but not in the sequence editor.
9)seems to be no way to start in the middle of a qt movie at bar one, but you can put the start of the movie at any bar.

I'm kind of bummed about a few of these items. particularly the non scalable tracks, non mutable midi notes, no note velocity tool, and lack of movie options for start points.

as far as i can tell dp seems easier to move sections of a song around. select across the ruler bar, cut and paste. seems fine.

i think when dealing with midi i would have to copy take, then do edits so that i could revert to my previous midi if necessary. once you have experience logics midi mute/velocity note options it is really difficult to see any other way to deal with it.
Old 5th October 2006
  #17
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I'll try to quickly, off the top of my head answer some, where I can.

Quote:
1. how do you adjust the track heights in the tracks window?
SE window there are two +/- signs to adjust the width and length. But Tracks Overview, I'm not aware how to adjust that.
Quote:
2. how do you change inputs for multiple channels simultaneously?
Highlight and "option- A" brings a box for multiple I/O assignments. Easy as pie.
Quote:
3. in the sequence window is there a way to put the comments box next to the track. it seems to just be a pop up window by default.
Yes. Just drag it.
Quote:
4.can i add solo buttons or is there just that weird solo master toggle? that is the first bizarre feature i have noticed.
No. Yeah, kind of strange.
Quote:
5.sort of a repeat of question one. i can't read the tiny text in the tracks window. please tell me there is a way to scale this page. please.
I'm trying, but I don't know the answer. Maybe you can't.
Quote:
6. zooming in the sequence editor doesn't make the notes bigger, but the background area gets bigger. am i missing something?
?????
Quote:
7. how do you edit note velocities in dp? is the only way to drag the tiny little velocity dots?
Highlight and go to Change Velocity in the Region Menu.

Don't know anything about movies.

You should check out unicornation.com. A lot of answers there.
Old 5th October 2006
  #18
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I teach Logic Pro at UCLA Extension and I have helped a number of people switch from DP to Logic. I have also seen many go the other way.

They have very different workflows and there are good arguments for both. I love DP's mixer i.e. and their PDC is much better implemented. Also most things are done on one page, which is a pro or a con depending on what you like. It does many thinga more directly than Logic and there are fewer workarounds needed. The audio editing system is smarter IMHO.

So why Logic?

1. It is far more cpu efficient. You can simply run more virtual instruments and plug-ins.

2. It is more customizable. Nobody's Autoload looks the same. Once again, a pro or a con depending on what you like.

3. It comes with a free, cpu effiecient, good sounding sampler, the EXS24 which is very well integrated.

4. IMHO its included plug-ins and virtual instruments are better.

5. It is owned by Apple which means that the developers see and start coding with the latest OS ahead of the MOTU people.

6. If you meet them at NAMM the former Emagic people, now Apple, are just much nicer than the MOTU guys.

7. If you live in L.A. you can have me teach you Logic properly

As for bugginess it is simply an urban legend that Logic is buggier. Go on the DP forums and you will see what I mean. Or a Cubsae forum. Any app that is trying to do as many things well as these apps are is going to have bugs, especially with all the OS changes, chip switches, different 3rd party plug-ins, etc. DO NOT make this your reason for choosing one or the other,

In the end, two fine choices IMHO.


Logic Certified Trainer

www.jayasher.com
Old 5th October 2006
  #19
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pan60's Avatar
 

i do not know squat about logic but i like DP .
Old 5th October 2006
  #20
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeronimo View Post
Does DP have something like PT's tab to transient?
No, and that's a pity, tab to transient is great PT feature, though sometimes it's a bit imprecise, but great when you have to work fast, at least it gets you in the ballpark very quick...
Old 5th October 2006
  #21
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quincyg View Post
4.can i add solo buttons or is there just that weird solo master toggle? that is the first bizarre feature i have noticed.
I don't really understand your question, adding solo buttons?

There's a solo button on every track in the mixer window, the solo button at the top is just a temporary suspend button, which can be helpfull

What I like about the solo buttons in Digital Performer is that you don't have to select a row one by one you can slide over the solo buttons with your mousekey held down...
Old 5th October 2006
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg View Post
What I like about the solo buttons in Digital Performer is that you don't have to select a row one by one you can slide over the solo buttons with your mousekey held down...
Same with Logic.
Old 5th October 2006
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg View Post
I don't really understand your question, adding solo buttons?

There's a solo button on every track in the mixer window, the solo button at the top is just a temporary suspend button, which can be helpfull

What I like about the solo buttons in Digital Performer is that you don't have to select a row one by one you can slide over the solo buttons with your mousekey held down...
i mean that there are no solo buttons anywhere except in the mix window. if the sequence window is my main working window then i would love for it to have solo and mute buttons as well as comments that are always visible next to the track, i/o settings, panning and volume. dp has a layout named pro tools, but it doesn't really have most of my standard pro tools options as just listed.

i personally do most of my mixing and io configuration in the tracks windo in pt, in the arrange window in logic, and in dp would make sense for me to do it in the sequence window. i don't see much use for the tracks window for me because it is so freaking tiny that it is exhauting to try and see what is what.

not exactly loving having to open a velocity menu to change not velocities. also really would love it if different not velocities were indicated by color. also wish muted regions were indicated by color.

I think I have seen enough to determine that it doesn't make sense for me to go to dp5. There are just too many midi features that i would miss to justify the superior audio features. wish it weren't so.
Old 5th October 2006
  #24
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A few things...

One:

You cannot scale the DP Tracks Overview window vertically. Bear in mind, as the name states, it's an overview window. Although you can conduct some routing, broad-stroke editing and copy-paste functions, it's really there just to present a compacted view of your project.

For precise audio editing, use the Sequence Editor window. For precise MIDI editing, use the MIDI Graphic Editor window. For precise routing and mixing, use the Mixer Window.

If you like this compartmentalized work paradigm (I do), you'll probably find DP an accessible app. If you prefer the customizability of an object-oriented UI, then Logic might be a better fit.

Two:

Currently, no audio/MIDI app covers all user needs and preferences. I'd advise either committing and adapting to an app. Or, do as some people do and use more than one app. I know people who use Logic to track VIs (taking advantage of its CPU efficiencies) and DP to edit and mix (taking advantage of its edit/mix efficiencies). Likewise to other app combos (i.e., Live into Pro Tools, Reason into Sonar, etc.).

You can expend a lot of time and energy migrating and learning new apps

Three:

I think the best UI advancement anyone can make is adopting a dual-monitor set-up. The ability to have any window up all the time is a big time and brain saver.
Old 6th October 2006
  #25
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I use DP 4 on my G4 and 5.something on my macbook.
I have a windows template where I have my mixer and my sequence window open sharing my monitor and this way it works a lot like PT...
pretty much the sequence and the mixer are like EDIT and MIX windows on PT.
To zoom in/out on the sequence window, use apple+arrows (up, down, left, right) if I'm not mistaken.
Like said before, Logic (I use Logic Express) is more CPU efficient, more customizable but I don't like how crippled Logic Express is, so I use DP most of the time.
I track do most editing on PT LE, then consolidate everything and move to DP 4 to mix.
Works great to me and even with DP beign a lot heavier on my G4, I can get a better sound with DP and my mixes come out faster than using PT LE.
Old 6th October 2006
  #26
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Thread Starter
I think pretty much everything everyone really makes sense and is very helpful. I currently switch between logic and pro tools. i pretty much use logic for 99% of my work and occasionally multitrack with pt, or will use beat detective on a part and then load it back to logic.

This is a dangerous statement, but I think a fundamental difference between logic and dp is that dp does pretty much does everything the programmers intended to do fairly smoothly. I think logic on the other hand has a lot of half baked/half implemented features, such as grouping, automation, grid editing, strip silence, etc., etc.

I find poorly executed functionality annoying, but I think I just have to suck it up and accept Logics bugs, because there are many really exceptionally great things about logic. It would be nice if they would smooth out all of the half baked stuff.

I have had indirect communication with the head of development at apple in the past and he expressed that he hated the little bugs and was all about fixing them, but the fixes are slow in the coming and not done well. one example was a direct request for a more functional strip silence, they just threw in a widened strip silence that still pretty much sucks. my hope is that these are just bandaids before a real overhaul. he did also say that take lists were coming. i have been waiting, but nothing yet.
Old 6th October 2006
  #27
SK1
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quiceyg,

What computer are you running ??
Old 6th October 2006
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK1 View Post
quiceyg,

What computer are you running ??
g5 1.8 dual
Old 6th October 2006
  #29
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DP Track overview

A workaround for making the tracks taller in the track overview window is using a second monitor set to a different resolution, which makes everything larger. I can't imagine working with just one monitor, and the second monitor feature is standard on the G5 dual.
Midi velocity editing is easy - highlight a section in the track overview window or other window, or double click on a note, which highlights every note in the track, hit 'command L' and set your parameters the way you want, or if they're already set, just hit 'enter'. I really like the ability to set keystroke commands for whatever you want.
I don't know if Logic has the graphic audio stretching feature, but in DP you can take a chunk of audio and stretch or shrink it on screen to match an adjacent track - really handy for lining up harmony vocals when one singer stopped before the other one.
Copying and pasting chorus sections is easy in the track overview window. Automation info is retained and moved to the new location. The only trick is, if you have multiple takes on some tracks, only the current take is moved.
Maybe I've been lucky, but stability has never been an issue for me with DP, and I've been using it ever since Vision went away. I just saw on the motu website that the latest version will import and export PT and logic format files, which might be helpful in making the switch.
Old 6th October 2006
  #30
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
I just saw on the motu website that the latest version will import and export PT and logic format files, which might be helpful in making the switch.
But you can take that with a grain of salt, it's not direct compatibility but via OMF/AAF!
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