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starscream2010
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#1
15th September 2006
Old 15th September 2006
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Nuendo 2 / Hard disk Problem?

You guys have helped point me into the right direction in the past and hopefully you can do it again

I have noticed that in the last two projects (high track counts 32-48) I have mixed my disk meter goes CRAZY and the audio starts and stops during playback and it's driving me nuts. Most projects I do are 16-28 tracks, with no problems, and my cpu meter is probably only at 60% so no problem there as well.

So... I guess my question is there something I need to change in the BIOS or should I enable raid settings???? I don't know. I store the files on a WD 200BG SATA drive and use an AMD64 chip with 2GB of ram. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance,
Nick

p.s I searched the nuendo forums and came up with zero
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#2
15th September 2006
Old 15th September 2006
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HI Nick,

if your doing 48 tracks of 48k youre no where near the limit of that drive.
48 tracks 96 you are.
i am assuming you have an os drive and an audio drive.

its hard to give any help past that without know what mobo, proccesor, audio interface.
what crappy pace programs you may have loaded etc.
what else is connected EG wireless NIC etc.

Scott
ADK
starscream2010
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#3
16th September 2006
Old 16th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
HI Nick,

if your doing 48 tracks of 48k youre no where near the limit of that drive.
48 tracks 96 you are.
i am assuming you have an os drive and an audio drive.

its hard to give any help past that without know what mobo, proccesor, audio interface.
what crappy pace programs you may have loaded etc.
what else is connected EG wireless NIC etc.

Scott
ADK

Thanks Scott.

Here's what I got...

Nuendo 2.0, Win XP PRO, AMD Athlon 64 3000+/MSI K8N NEO-FSR,
2GB ram, Radeon 9250, Western Digital 80GB (OS - partioned) & 200GB (storage) SATA


Echo Layla 24/96 (with the latest drivers)


Also, the projects in question have been either 24/48 or 16/44.1 and this pc has never been connected to the internet or a network.


plugins I am using are: Voxengo analog flux suite / URS comp and eq bundles / WAVES gold & Sonalksis 315
#4
16th September 2006
Old 16th September 2006
  #4
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It is possible that your problems are coming from bottlenecks within your single channel disk I/O controller & single physical hard drive. On any specialized application using Windows, it is always a good idea to use one small physical Drive (Drive 0) for the OS (an IDE drive is fine, 10-20 GB... I prefer Seagate or Western Digital - stay away from Quantum or Maxtor), and a RAID array consisting of at least 2 SATA drives for the applications & data. This will separate the OS' disk controller channel from the Application' disk controller channel (which BTW, has nothing to do with the CPU utilization at this stage). By doing this you should realize a higher, more consistent data transfer rate. If this is indeed where your system bottlenecks are occuring, then a RAID configuration will definitely reduce or eliminate any pauses resulting from too much demand, not enough supply in your disk sub-system.

For example, my system uses a 40GB IDE boot drive containing only the OS, and (2) 200GB SATA drives in a RAID 0 configuration for all of my software and data files. Once SATA drives are installed and recognized by Windows, you could allocate the combined 400GB from those 2 drives (using my example) into a single Windows volume, or any number of smaller sized logical volumes... your choice. And with current drives, you can get (2) 300GB drives to create a single 600GB volume! But since you don't have any fault tolerance using RAID 0, a good backup system and plan is essential to protecting your data. All you have to do is follow it, religiously!!

The simplest, least expensive (but highest performance) hardware RAID configuration is RAID 0. This requires a minimum of 2 drives, has no fault tolerance (i.e., redundancy), and simply writes the data across all drives in a process called striping. Very Important: If you do decide to use RAID, only use hardware RAID. Never use software RAID, as it is highly inefficient and you will suffer huge performance hits.

Also note, I am assuming that your system does not have any other fundamental configuration issues, weird problems, old inefficient device drivers, etc. In other words, if your system ever had errors that went unanalyzed and corrected, then everything you have built on top of that foundation... will inherit and amplify those shortcomings going forward.

Good Luck !
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#5
16th September 2006
Old 16th September 2006
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I didn't realize when I posted my suggestions, that you already had an IDE OS drive and a SATA data drive. Great! - you are already halfway there.

I would still look into spreading your disk I/O out, by adding a second SATA drive and configuring a RAID 0 array.
starscream2010
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#6
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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Cool. I'm not TOO familiar with the raid config stuff, but, will try that and hopefully it will help. Thanks!
#7
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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HI Nick,

you may have too many effects running, have you tried increasing buffer size?

you are recording and playing back from the Sata drive yes?

i have not been too fond of Echos newer drivers. however the card you have was a great card. (newer ones suck)

aside from that you may want to run a disk check utility like sisoft sandra just to be sure your drive isnt going out.

FYI do not bother with RAID.
you are no where near the required track count for raid

Scott
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starscream2010
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#8
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
you may have too many effects running, have you tried increasing buffer size?

you are recording and playing back from the Sata drive yes?
Hi Scott.

Too many plugins might be a possibility, but, wouldn't my CPU meter be maxing out too? Right now it's holding at like 60% and I have the buffer size maxed out.

Yes you are correct, I am recording and playing back on the same Sata drive.... should I not be doing that? I just need to get this fixed because it seems like alot of the newer projects I am mixing, have higher track counts.

Do you think that I might need to upgrade my mobo and chip or interface? I have been looking at the FF800. Also, will the "Sandra Lite" work ok or do I need to purchase one of the other versions?

Thanks for all of your help.

Nick
#9
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
HI Nick,

you may have too many effects running, have you tried increasing buffer size?

you are recording and playing back from the Sata drive yes?

i have not been too fond of Echos newer drivers. however the card you have was a great card. (newer ones suck)

aside from that you may want to run a disk check utility like sisoft sandra just to be sure your drive isnt going out.

FYI do not bother with RAID.
you are no where near the required track count for raid

Scott
ADK
Disk utilities, et. all are always a good idea.

RAID however, is just RAID. It operates at a lower level than software. IOW, it has the potential to maximize hardware performance. I don't know anything about this software or what 'required track count' means, apart from a general guideline... but there is no doubt that a RAID configuration (espec. R0, SATA) will deliver higher performance. Whether it solves this fellows problem no one can say until they have done so and have results to back it up. My own experience using this example hardware platform tells me otherwise. Although my system is an older platform running on Win 2000 and an ASUS A7N8X mobo, I suspect it's performance might be surprisinging to some more recent DAW platforms.
#10
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starscream2010 View Post
Hi Scott.

Too many plugins might be a possibility, but, wouldn't my CPU meter be maxing out too? Right now it's holding at like 60% and I have the buffer size maxed out.

Yes you are correct, I am recording and playing back on the same Sata drive.... should I not be doing that? I just need to get this fixed because it seems like alot of the newer projects I am mixing, have higher track counts.

Do you think that I might need to upgrade my mobo and chip or interface? I have been looking at the FF800. Also, will the "Sandra Lite" work ok or do I need to purchase one of the other versions?

Thanks for all of your help.

Nick
HI Nick,
with 60% cpu usage on AMD it should be fine but i suspect your hitting a wall.
up you buffers and see what happens.

yes you should be recording and playback from the Sata drive, just making sure you were not doing it with the OS drive.

yes Sandra lite is fine. you want the free one!

i would try other things before jumping into a new interface.
yes your system is getting long in the tooth but still it should not be peaking with what youur doing (depending on the amount of plugins)

and again RAID WILL NOT fix your issue.
a single Sata drive is good for over 100 tracks 48k or 40 @96k
Raid is a complete waste unless high track counts of 96K or 192.
and depending on your software its better to split tracks than fool with Raid.
with Nuendo i can do 96 tracks 96k split between 3 drives with no risk of Raid failure.

Scott
ADK
starscream2010
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#11
18th September 2006
Old 18th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
HI Nick,
with 60% cpu usage on AMD it should be fine but i suspect your hitting a wall.
up you buffers and see what happens.

yes you should be recording and playback from the Sata drive, just making sure you were not doing it with the OS drive.

yes Sandra lite is fine. you want the free one!

i would try other things before jumping into a new interface.
yes your system is getting long in the tooth but still it should not be peaking with what youur doing (depending on the amount of plugins)

and again RAID WILL NOT fix your issue.
a single Sata drive is good for over 100 tracks 48k or 40 @96k
Raid is a complete waste unless high track counts of 96K or 192.
and depending on your software its better to split tracks than fool with Raid.
with Nuendo i can do 96 tracks 96k split between 3 drives with no risk of Raid failure.

Scott
ADK
I'm thinking that it's the plugin count.

I recently got both the URS eq AND comp bundles and have been using those mainly.... with a little rcomp, tapebus & a 315 on the mix buss. While I am LOVING the results it might just be too much for my system? I dunno.

I didn't think that my pc was that outdated but maybe I was wrong.... Could be time for a new chip and mobo. Any suggestions?

I will run the Sandra app and see if that turns anything up. I have already "upped" the buffers as high as they will go.

Thanks again for all of your help,
Nick
#12
19th September 2006
Old 19th September 2006
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KingDaddyO is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
and again RAID WILL NOT fix your issue.
This is a possibility...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild View Post
with Nuendo i can do 96 tracks 96k split between 3 drives with no risk of Raid failure.

Scott
ADK
Assuming that one has routinely backed up & verified their data, why would a RAID failure be any more disastrous than a single drive failure, split between 3 drives? Rebuild and restore either way.
starscream2010
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#13
19th September 2006
Old 19th September 2006
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Ok... I ran the Sandra app and it did come up with an error saying that the drive "in question" was not set for optimal use and that I need to correct it in the BIOS.

So, I guess my question would be... am I really going to jack things up if I start screwing around with the BIOS and if so, is it easy to go back and correct any mistakes that might be made?

Whadda ya think?

Thanks!
Nick
#14
19th September 2006
Old 19th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starscream2010 View Post
Ok... I ran the Sandra app and it did come up with an error saying that the drive "in question" was not set for optimal use and that I need to correct it in the BIOS.

So, I guess my question would be... am I really going to jack things up if I start screwing around with the BIOS and if so, is it easy to go back and correct any mistakes that might be made?

Whadda ya think?

Thanks!
Nick
Nick, I'm not familar with your mobo or the Sandra utility, but it sounds like it is giving you useful information.

Before changing any settings you should backup your system, and in particular your data/SATA drive. Once you have verified backups, you can experiment with your BIOS settings within some level of protection. But first you should document your BIOS settings, so you can recover from any obviously wrong setting that causes your system to become non-operational. Generally speaking however, you should be ok with making subtle changes, one at a time, then gauging the results. It is important to make only one change at a time, then test immediately to gauge the result. It's also a good idea to reset the previous change before you make another change. This will keep the results meaningful. If you get in too deep or become lost, you can always reset the BIOS back to a 'Default' configuration. Usually this will be a stable configuration, but not necessarily the highest stable performance that the system is capable of. Worst case would be that you might somehow hose everything up, and have to rebuild your system, reinstall your apps, and restore your data. Sometimes this isn't a bad thing, but you definitely don't want to go through this unless it is absloutely necessary.

There may be some known issues or other mobo config tips if you do some Google queries. Here's one I used:
http://www.google.com/search?hs=Qzg&...gs&btnG=Search

I don't build DAW's on a daily basis, although I am in IT up to my ears. The fellow from ADK has a good handle on tech support specific to DAWs, Nuendo, etc.

Happy troubleshooting...
starscream2010
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#15
19th September 2006
Old 19th September 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingDaddyO View Post
Nick, I'm not familar with your mobo or the Sandra utility, but it sounds like it is giving you useful information.

Before changing any settings you should backup your system, and in particular your data/SATA drive. Once you have verified backups, you can experiment with your BIOS settings within some level of protection. But first you should document your BIOS settings, so you can recover from any obviously wrong setting that causes your system to become non-operational. Generally speaking however, you should be ok with making subtle changes, one at a time, then gauging the results. It is important to make only one change at a time, then test immediately to gauge the result. It's also a good idea to reset the previous change before you make another change. This will keep the results meaningful. If you get in too deep or become lost, you can always reset the BIOS back to a 'Default' configuration. Usually this will be a stable configuration, but not necessarily the highest stable performance that the system is capable of. Worst case would be that you might somehow hose everything up, and have to rebuild your system, reinstall your apps, and restore your data. Sometimes this isn't a bad thing, but you definitely don't want to go through this unless it is absloutely necessary.

There may be some known issues or other mobo config tips if you do some Google queries. Here's one I used:
http://www.google.com/search?hs=Qzg&...gs&btnG=Search

I don't build DAW's on a daily basis, although I am in IT up to my ears. The fellow from ADK has a good handle on tech support specific to DAWs, Nuendo, etc.

Happy troubleshooting...
Cool... I will try "messing" with the BIOS and hopefully I don't do any permanent damage
#16
5th July 2009
Old 5th July 2009
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RAID isn't a waste if you set it up in mirror mode (RAID 1). That's a VERY good idea--in case a drive goes bad, you'll have an exact copy of all the media on the other drive, so you can use that until you can RMA the damaged drive, and you don't have to worry about cloning or getting your original files back.
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