Logic -> Ableton (again)
Old 29th January 2013
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Logic -> Ableton (again)

I just went to NAMM this last weekend and saw the new Push, and had my mind blown. Such a creative way to get thoughts out. Then I thought - Logic is starting to frustrate me. The workflow has always felt a little annoying (even after years - I would say I'm extremely versed in the program now), ex. do you want to create a new audio file? Do you want to move automation?..

Not to mention there are bugs that still haven't been fixed, for example sample-accurate automation (before anyone tells me about the option in the preferences, see: https://logicprohelp.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=1&t=84306)

I decided to actually try and learn Ableton for a day or two, and I have to say, while it feels like molasses because I only know a few shortcuts (I do miss Logic's zoom box shortcut), so many features seem much much much more "logic"-al.

Curious, has anyone who has been a hardcore Logic user switched to Ableton and remained happy? My genres are all over the place - mostly pop, dance, and orchestral though.

I just know Logic X will be coming out soon (hopefully this year), and according to their recent comment on the development of it, it's going to blow everything out of the water and that's why it's taking so long. Would I be wasting a ton of time switching DAWs?

(Edit: Aside from vocal comping. I suppose I'd have to keep doing vocals in Logic.)
Old 29th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobiatch View Post
Do you want to move automation?..
Old 29th January 2013
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobiatch View Post
Curious, has anyone who has been a hardcore Logic user switched to Ableton and remained happy?
I did. Logic for 5 years and switch to Ableton 2 years ago.

I am very happy, but that doesn't mean you will be. DAW choice is a very personal thing, and just because it works for me doesn't mean it'll work for you.

While Ableton did some things better, there are some things that Logic did better. Best advice, write a couple of tracks in Ableton and see if it works for you.
Old 29th January 2013
  #4
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ive done Ableton for about 3 years now (messed with Logic, not much to compare each)...former roommate went from Ableton -> Logic (wanted a MAC) and now back to Abelton because he says the workflow/creativity is much better in Ableton.


Current roommate started with Reason and switched to Logic four years ago and continues to swear by it....I dont know why. Keeps trying to me that Logic has a better "sound". idk.
Old 29th January 2013
  #5
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I tried to switch to Ableton many times but I always find it so crappy. Logic is unrivaled for my workflow.

I really like Reaper but there are really stupid things that kill me like "bus-ing" which should be simple...well in Reaper it's a nightmare.
Old 29th January 2013
  #6
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Here's my full overview on Live VS Logic. First off, I don't agree with others and their advice to use Live or any other sequencer along with a whole other sequencer. I think it's completely pointless because if Live does something better than sequencer X, dealing with the workflow between both of them negates any of the positives and just makes things more complicated.


From my experience demoing Live quite a few times, the main things I like:

- Freezing tracks is very elegant because you can treat the frozen clips like audio, move them around, and slice them ect.. then unfreeze them if need be and any changes you make to the frozen audio is in place with the midi too.

A good alternative to this with Logic would be the bounce in place feature.

- Time stretching / Slicing

This is generally good, and more reliable than Logic, but the quality of both Live and Logic's time stretching is very program dependent. In some cases, Logic is better than Live and vise versa quality wise.

- Browser and previewing audio samples.


The things I don't like:

- Third party plugins are even less organized than Logic. Everything, both instruments and effects are just jumbled all together.

- Mixing is horrible because there is no way to see an overview of all plugins on all channels at once. You can only view plugins that are on one channel at a time.

- Session view. I can understand why some people would like it, but I don't really see any benefit to it from a production point of a view. I can see the real benefits of it when "performing live", but Traktor can do the same thing for me when I'm DJing. When dealing with session view while producing, I really don't see any benefit to it over laying out ideas in Logic or any traditional sequencer and looping the arrange view while taking ideas in an out of the loop zone.

- To play a virtual instrument loaded on a channel, you can't just click on that specific channel as you would in Logic. You have to make sure that you press the tiny record enable button. Logic does this for you automatically when selecting tracks.

- Copy protection. C/R sucks, and is not a user friendly option, as many users have realized when dealing with companies that end up disappearing. I avoid this method of copy protection whenever possible.


People complain about the audio quality of Live, saying "oh, that's because time stretching is enabled, disable it". This is true, your audio quality in Live will be fine and the same as any other sequencer when doing this, but now it's also just like working in any other sequencer.

I like knowing that I can, and do, do all of my production in one program. Logic allows me to do this. I have no need for two. I use Traktor for DJing because it offers me the ability to DJ traditionally, on-the-fly, without planning anything out in advance if I choose not to. Ableton Live is not made for this. Sure, you get to "perform" live, but it's not designed to handle actual DJing with improvisation, and a professional music collection database that can be searched through quickly and accurately.
Old 29th January 2013
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Live is good for the copy-paste loop clip producer. If you really want to edit audio and midi and re-arrange things on a higher level, or record live audio/midi, it's painful. *)

*) No real audio editor, midi editing tools are primitive, no comp take support, no folders of takes for higher level re-arrangement.
Old 29th January 2013
  #8
R3k
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Im an advanced logic user who has been delving into Live for the last couple of months.

Id have to say either one doesn't fully replace the other.

Live is more geared towards loop based production, real time creativity, live performance etc, and the way it is built engages your creativity in a different way than logic does, which is quite refreshing. I found it much easier to get to grips with than Logic. That little help window on the bottom left corner really helps, and its generally easy to find tutorials and help on the web if you're have trouble working out a bit of the program. The key commands were pretty easy imo, and everything is pretty Logical. Drag and drop functionality is great, and the flexibility & workflow of things like Drum Rack is really great.

Logic is a much more full featured DAW, and can accomplish many more things more elegantly than Live. I wont go into it as you say you are an advanced user.

So yeah, Id say go learn Live, its fun. Ill be buying Push when it comes out as well. However, you'll end up using both DAWs for your needs
Old 29th January 2013
  #9
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I said goodbye to Logic in the past summer, because of the workflow.
First, I moved to Studio One and was really happy with everything, apart of the controller support and the way the mixer correspondents (or doesn't so) with the tracks.
I was sure Studio One would be great for mixing, but missed some tighter, more controllable system for the first parts of the song creation.
Because I am like you having my styles all over the place, I had this "dance and hiphop only" tag in my head when thinking Ableton, but thought it can't be true.
When I was thinking about how really to improve my workflow with creating beats, and failing to find a decent hardware/software hybrid, I first considered Ableton and an APC40, but put the thought aside. Then, Push was announced, and it was EXACTLY what I always wished and waited for: A controller that's tightly integrated with the DAW and the beat creation, as I think the two latter (should) belong to each other no matter what style (well, apart of real acoustic drums).

So after some basic demoing and using of my older Live Intro, I finally understood what Ableton can do for *me*. It suddenly made sense, I found a way to make it more useful for me than any other DAW: The initial writing and arranging process with support of a hardware controller.

And because I am unpatient, I bought the APC40 anyway (it arrived today) and hope this time I have done something right again with my buy decisions

Good luck! Best trick is to get to know, that it can do something for you, that other DAWs can't. But only you know what that useful thing could be... maybe another DAW has what *you* need.

I myself probably settle down with Ableton for creating and Studio One for mixing.
Old 29th January 2013
  #10
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Thread Starter
Hm. Okay, well I suppose the answer is don't think of it as changing DAWs, just additionally learning Live...

Thanks!
Old 29th January 2013
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingobiatch View Post
Hm. Okay, well I suppose the answer is don't think of it as changing DAWs, just additionally learning Live...

Thanks!
exactly. I still go back to Logic for tracking vocals and guitars for the most part because it is better at that,... but both are great tools.
Old 29th January 2013
  #12
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Really hoping Logic X is ridiculously amazing. That would solve everything.
Old 29th January 2013
  #13
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Just a few constructive rebuttals to the points made here, in the hopes of clarifying areas of the Live vs. Logic workflow discussion!

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
From my experience demoing Live quite a few times, the main things I like:

- Mixing is horrible because there is no way to see an overview of all plugins on all channels at once. You can only view plugins that are on one channel at a time.
True, but all you are talking about is seeing just the names of the plugins across the mixing board, not what their settings are actually set to (that would require an individual double-click for every plugin in your mix, as you know, and I doubt you are viewing an open plug-in window for every mix effect simultaneously in your set!). For me, live's approach is more elegant, beause all the native FX devices *dont' have pop-up windows*, they just appear in full-UI mode from left to right at the bottom of the screen. This means I can look at a given channel and see all the EQ, compressor and further FX settings at once for that channel, without ever having to double-click a bunch of mixer insert boxes and move around screen over-lapping pop-ups for every individual plugin. For me, that's huge. Sure, I understand why 'seeing everything at once' is nice, but when in reality all you are seeing is just the name of each device is in each channel, why is that so enormously useful? (or result in saying mixing in live is awful?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post

- Session view...When dealing with session view while producing, I really don't see any benefit to it over laying out ideas in Logic or any traditional sequencer and looping the arrange view while taking ideas in an out of the loop zone.
Here you've lost me completely. Obviously "to each their own", etc, but seriously, in terms of speed of workflow, there is no comparison. In live if you want to hear different sequences playing in the currently playing back loop (or 'scene' as they say), you just click them, and they fire off in perfect sync; you can add new elements from new channels into the overall loop, stop specific elements, replace playing elements with other elements -- all while playing back and in perfect sync. Now, you seriously think you can replicate this by having a loop playing in logic and -- what -- continually copying and pasting or dragging different clips that aren't in that loop into it while it's playing back? Uhh....if you really think that replicates how session view works, I'm gonna assert you didn't spend enough time with it! And what about rapidly switching between scenes? you're suggesting that dragging the loop region in logic's arrangement to a different location and then re-starting playback there is functionally equivalent to firing off a different scene in live?? Again...I'm speechless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post


- To play a virtual instrument loaded on a channel, you can't just click on that specific channel as you would in Logic. You have to make sure that you press the tiny record enable button. Logic does this for you automatically when selecting tracks.
...which is actually a limitation, not a feature. sometimes you *want* to select a track without it arming automatically, so a track you aren't viewing remains currently armed -- for example, when tweaking the carrier synth for a vocoder, or a side-chain source while still playing the effected channel. In such cases you don't want the track-arm to automatically change to the newly selected channel, you just wanted to tweak something there while keeping the original channel armed. There are numerous other examples where this is useful, though you are correct, it requires an extra click.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post

- Copy protection. C/R sucks, and is not a user friendly option, as many users have realized when dealing with companies that end up disappearing. I avoid this method of copy protection whenever possible.
ok...but at least it's not a dongle. And I don't think ableton is going to just 'disappear' on a million users. In a world of dongle products, this criticism seems odd / pointless to me, but <shrug>.
Old 29th January 2013
  #14
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I switched to Live a year ago. I haven't really looked back.
I still have Logic of course, and can use it if I wish. Maintaining LOgic to the most current version is usually not expensive, so I plan to keep full versions of Logic and Live on my work computer. I've already purchased the upgrade to Live 9.
The two main reasons I switched to Live was the warping, and the session view which is very good for composing electronic music. I could hear terrible artefacts when changing anything in Logic's recorded audio. I haven't had any issues with audio in Live.
I have no problem with audio editing or midi editing in Live.
Old 29th January 2013
  #15
I switched from Logic 9 to Live 8 around two years ago and have been considering switching after Live 9 was announced

these are my pro and cons of Live 9

pros
  • straight forward and easy to use
  • easy automation (touch a parameter and it automatically shows up ready to be automated on the track)
  • groups
  • warping
  • drum racks
  • simpler
  • effects groups

cons
  • bad mixing environment
  • no selectable curves in automation
  • no automation drop down with all available automation for 3rd party plug-ins (you must open the plug-in window and click on what you want to automate for it to show up)
  • no automation snap
  • no sample pitch automation (only as envelope)
  • no groups in groups (you can send any track to any other track to be used as buses, but they can't be hidden from the arrange windows like you can in Logic)
  • no MP3 encoding
  • no bounce in place
  • no freezing without effects
  • no mouse wheel zoom
  • no automatic clip colors (assigning a track color makes no different to colors of the midi clips created or audio clips added to the track)
  • limited built-in EQ (12dB and 48dB filters only, only ranges down to 30hz and up to 22kHz)
  • limited MIDI editing (no slicing of notes, new notes always appears as the smallest division visible on the grid, etc.)
  • no undo after saving (be prepared to save tons of copies)

I also recently started this thread about switching to Cubase, ends up it's not worth if you're on Mac, but I talk a lot about my workflow in Live and there's some talk about Logic as well

switching from Live to Cubase

there's also a small test I made to somewhat compare the CPU performance of Live 8, Live 9 and Logic 9

you can find that in this post (spoiler alert: Live 8 and 9 performed better than Logic 9 in this test)

also, the version of Live 9 that I used to test this was the previous, a newer one was release a couple of hours ago and I'll be updating if there's any improvement

switching from Live to Cubase
Old 30th January 2013
  #16
Eat
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two different animals as far as i'm concerned. i have logic for 'normal' songwriting and live for the electronic-y sample-y loop-y spontaneous on the fly have fun messing around serendipitous stuff
Old 30th January 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
two different animals as far as i'm concerned. i have logic for 'normal' songwriting and live for the electronic-y sample-y loop-y spontaneous on the fly have fun messing around serendipitous stuff
I don't think they're two different animals when it comes to producing. Live has "live" functionality, but for producing music, they can both do the same thing.
Old 30th January 2013
  #18
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yeah, i use live all the time for acoustic type stuff.... the "electronicy" thing is a true stereotype.... sure it's great for that, and it's obvious in that regard... but i actually find ableton to be better at, how did you say it, "normal" songwriting duty....
Old 30th January 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmicide View Post
cons
  • bad mixing environment
  • no MP3 encoding
  • no undo after saving (be prepared to save tons of copies)
Those are the three major cons for me.
But overall the pros outweigh the cons for my way of working.
Old 30th January 2013
  #20
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I switched from logic to live 2 years ago. I still use logic for recording live instruments...make a bounce of the song, import it to logic and record at a low latency and then back to live. I do some mixing in live...pretty basic stuff because of mix enviroment and not wanting to kill cpu...logic i still do final mixing.

Live is just great for writing, awesome work flow, clips to save all ideas and mix it up. Still just doesnt do it for me when it comes to mixing... One of my biggest gripes with live is no freeze with anything side chained. I have to print vst to audio to get around no freeze track/cpu. It is great to be able to edit freeze tracks though.
Old 30th January 2013
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Those are the three major cons for me.
But overall the pros outweigh the cons for my way of working.
...but one good thing is when ableton crashes, it still "most" of the time remembers what you did last.... logic never did that for me, maybe it has changed... mp3 encoding, well, certainly no deal breaker for me, but yes, mixing in it is different, but i have come to actually embrace it, automation i find better in ableton for some reason for me (don't want to start a flame war), but i find it easier to automate parameters quickly.... but again, it's all personal taste, and in the end, i just use my ears, and for whatever that is worth....
Old 30th January 2013
  #22
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I bout Live 2 years ago, because I thought I would be using it for live performances. Once I came to grips with software after my initial distaste for the application ( as is the case with anything new that I try) I pretty much haven't used a logic heavily since. I do think the arrange view in live is severely lacking and I'm not even sure if I want to call live a daw until they address mixing properly, takes and the arrange view but it's a great tool.

Now with logics GUI freeze issue I don't even bother opening that application at all unless I'm working on an old project. It's just not worth the hassle. Live and Studio One are my main daws of choice at this point.
Old 30th January 2013
  #23
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In any case rather than just comparing DAWs based on whether it has everything predefined in the way "I like it" (aka learned workflows), featured plugins and track counts... I prefer to look at what something offers that gives it a unique flavor or modality.

A lot of the 'tricks' I use in Logic have to do with the abstract relationship between arrange page 'track objects' and environment/mixer objects. It becomes especially powerful (and occasionally confusing) once you get your head around Logic's concept of folders. Similarly I find that being able to convert automation between track based 'parts' (midi aka hyperdata though with the f-fader parameters intact) and back, and arrange/transform/loop/copy/edit automation like midi...nothing else does this this well in my experience. Throw in some semi-advanced environment based midi processing and I find I can custom map single knobs to entire arrangements with ease with full parameter scaling for each destination. 1 knob to rule them all if need be...

And to be fair since Live gained Max4Live, I find myself wanting for the same features in Live much much less. Though the complexity is greater initially for custom rolled Max4Live rigging, the way that Live also handles racks and nested plugin chains means that a good deal of the simpler automation is much easier to dial into hardware in my studio. So between the 'simple' midi mapping that Live & logic and all daws have in common, to the more advanced racks I find that the bases are covered in Live. Logic's environment is a step up from this, but Max4Live goes well beyond anything Logic ever dreamed of doing internally...

Now I should mention I've used Live for years, I first started using it for simple loop based work when (imho) Acid became too bloated to want to run it concurrently with my primary DAW just for slicing break loops. I figured since I'm running a second app anyway I should investigate something beyond Acid, and Live 3/4/5 evolved to the point where I was using it as a sampler via the Session view (triggering from Logic or Cubase as you would via APC40 or etc now). Setting clips to trigger unquantized and assigning cc's to loop/etc params was heaps of fun. I did a bit of 'performance' ish with it back then but that was a P4 era Pentium-M laptop (actually p3 derived) which was enough for some tasks but it left me wanting hardware effects and such still.

That's changed today close to a decade later, and I still use Live and Logic together in the various ways I find them useful...loop work, sometimes Live alone, sometimes Logic alone, but most frequently I'm either flying bits between Macbook Pro running Live & Mac Pro running Logic, running Live as I always have as a sample/loop tool and/or prepping something in Live from Logic or etc.

I have no real beef with Logic's flex time as some seem to, but I will admit I rarely flex anything over 32bars long (if that) and I have rather OCD habits. And I think the support for Recycle/Acid files is on par with Apple's own loop format in both Logic and Live, at least for my purposes. Both have workflows to get sliced loops into samplers if need be, and both have several options for sampling available which aren't directly comparable. I think I'm still more fluent in composing/mixing/engineering directly in Logic. I really just throw loops into a given app based on whether I want to mess around with them more (in which case I might use Live..or even Kontakt or Geist) or just do straighforward mixing & editing 'ala the arrange page in Logic.

What's interesting to me personally with Logic versus other applications is actually specifically that which frustrates many people. It's non-straightforward mode of operation for many makes it more interesting for me. And similarly Live breaks from the 'normal' DAW mold enough to make it interesting while still being usable in a 'straight' fashion if need be. Unlike say Renoise or FLstudio which both have migrated towards more arrange based workflows from those that were decidedly not.

And lastly the 'cleanliness' I can achieve with an arrange view of the 'global' mix in Logic far exceeds what I can do in Live. For instance assigning automation enabled tracks to their own arrange page 'track object' based on what are the most important params to keep visible is a huge help. I can make 2-3 parameters 'always visible' on their own tracks and dig in further as needed from there so I don't have to do the triangle trick or deal with a dropdown menu. And the curves are more flexible than Live9 beta's 1 fixed curve shape still, and the mixer view is much more straightforward as well.

Both have their plusses & minuses in regards to the mixer/audio routing too. Live hits a cpu ceiling much faster, and requires 'dummy track' usages (at least in v8) to achieve things I can do with just an aux and some arrange page automation in Logic. However layering clip automation & arrange automation in Live isn't really TOO far off of what you could do in Logic by combining track based & object based automation.... Logic quite often hits your last cpu much harder when you're swapping a (formerly happy) heavy VI onto that "live mode" core, and input monitoring and complex bussing with VI's requires a bit of work to get things to load balance properly. Whereas Live (like most DAWs) isn't working with a hybrid mix engine so you're always aware how much cpu you're using since you never 'magically get more' when something isn't selected.
Old 30th January 2013
  #24
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Use both...
Old 30th January 2013
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
And the curves are more flexible than Live9 beta's 1 fixed curve shape still, and the mixer view is much more straightforward as well.
I found Live 9's new curve automation to be easier to use than Logics, specially when inserting new points on the curves since it creates two curves as opposed to one a curve and one like in Logic

I also liked that Live's curve can be more extreme than Logics, still I'd like to see more curve options in Live or at least a bend point like the fades have

Quote:
Originally Posted by valis View Post
Both have their plusses & minuses in regards to the mixer/audio routing too. Live hits a cpu ceiling much faster, and requires 'dummy track' usages (at least in v8) to achieve things I can do with just an aux and some arrange page automation in Logic.
I was under the impression that Logic was lighter on the CPU until I ran some tests yesterday (which I posted earlier)

they were far from scientific but made sense for what I need them for
Old 31st January 2013
  #26
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People get the impression that Logic is lighter on the CPU
but that's only if you use the built-in plugs,not 3rd party.
Old 31st January 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaidon View Post
People get the impression that Logic is lighter on the CPU
but that's only if you use the built-in plugs,not 3rd party.
My findings are for third party plugins as well.
Quote
1
Old 31st January 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
My findings are for third party plugins as well.
Mine are not.
Old 31st January 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eat View Post
two different animals as far as i'm concerned. i have logic for 'normal' songwriting and live for the electronic-y sample-y loop-y spontaneous on the fly have fun messing around serendipitous stuff
+1

Session View is the main unique aspect of Live - great if you write EDM and need to work in fixed loops. Terrible if you do something like orchestral music or traditional pop / rock songwriting (where things aren't in fixed loops and often need to overlap boundaries). If you haven't tried arranging using Logic's folders, you haven't really used Logic to its full potential.

Logic's arrangement view is far superior to Live's IMO, though Live's does have some nice qualities.

I think Logic's instruments are superior - Live probably has the edge on effects just from a creative standpoint, though Logic is no slouch. Doesn't really matter if you use 3rd party stuff though. I've found Logic to have much better real world CPU usage than Live.

I much prefer mixing in Logic compared to Live.

My 2 cents - but I don't do EDM. I do pop / indie pop stuff. A traditional linear sequencer is way more practical for that.
Old 31st January 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaidon View Post
People get the impression that Logic is lighter on the CPU
but that's only if you use the built-in plugs,not 3rd party.
Logic is certainly lighter on cpu, the hybrid mix engine runs at a 1024 (or 512/2048 depending on your settings) internal mix buffer rather than at your Core Audio (or ASIO on Win) buffer setting for tracks (audio objects) that are not selected in mixer/arrange, record armed, have live input monitoring on or the i/o enabler. Ie, anything not needing low latency operation for fast playback/monitoring will run at the mix buffer.

Logic DOES have some core loading issues with 3rd party VI's though, which takes a bit to understand how to work with. For instance if you are prone to stacking auxes on multi out VI's like Kontakt you'll quickly 'run out of cpu' but a closer look at the multi-core cpu meter in Logic usually shows one core overloading but not your "live mode" core (the last one).

Also if you have a Mac with Hyperthreading it can help to limit your available core usage of Logic to at least 1-2 less cores than the total number of virtual cores (and ideally imo I'd just set it to the number of PHYSICAL cores and let the available HT overhead account for background tasks and i/o duties).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmicide View Post
I was under the impression that Logic was lighter on the CPU until I ran some tests yesterday (which I posted earlier)

they were far from scientific but made sense for what I need them for
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