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#91
9th December 2012
Old 9th December 2012
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in SoCal View Post
MOTU drivers incompatible with Win 8. That seems to be the ONLY example where Windows 7 outperforms 8. Incidentally, MOTU drivers for Windows traditionally suck.
Theres more to it than that , the MOTU driver issue is only one aspect , and if you read thru the thread you will see I use RME HDSPe as my reference hardware. The issues with MOTU is highlighting that as much as some want to sugar coat the Win 8 transition, it isn't that smooth for all. Ask any FF400 owners how they are finding it for example, oh thats right, the hardware will not work on Win 8 without a signed legacy driver !

Show me a quantifiable example where Windows 8 is outperforming Windows 7 , and please don't point back to the Cakewalk Blog.

Re MOTU driver sucking on Windows, hmmm, their PCIe based cards are a right up there with the best of them, so lets not make blanket claims.
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#92
9th December 2012
Old 9th December 2012
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in SoCal View Post
MOTU drivers incompatible with Win 8. That seems to be the ONLY example where Windows 7 outperforms 8. Incidentally, MOTU drivers for Windows traditionally suck.
I'm using my MOTU 828mkIII hybrid via FireWire on my main Windows 8 machine. I have a TI Firewire chipset, not the other cheaper one, so maybe that's why it works.

I haven't done any performance comparisons.

Pete
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#93
10th December 2012
Old 10th December 2012
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Theres more to it than that , the MOTU driver issue is only one aspect , and if you read thru the thread you will see I use RME HDSPe as my reference hardware. The issues with MOTU is highlighting that as much as some want to sugar coat the Win 8 transition, it isn't that smooth for all. Ask any FF400 owners how they are finding it for example, oh thats right, the hardware will not work on Win 8 without a signed legacy driver !

Show me a quantifiable example where Windows 8 is outperforming Windows 7 , and please don't point back to the Cakewalk Blog.

Re MOTU driver sucking on Windows, hmmm, their PCIe based cards are a right up there with the best of them, so lets not make blanket claims.
Well

A. In the interest of being diplomatic, even if it was just MOTU interfaces that would still be a bummer

B. there are reports on the RME forums of stability with their interfaces in windows 8

C. I tried to subnote the post off of the cakewalk blog by saying obviously ymmv considering your specific setup.... Why isn't this quantifiable? Their tests were and usually are good.. It's not like he is trying to sell you sonar.. Also, he's a noted windows expert, I thought it would be a helpful link

D. The first issue from that thread was simply a permissions issue (eg no big deal..)

As always, just wanna be helpful. Also excited to hear more from you about this.

--a
#94
10th December 2012
Old 10th December 2012
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
Well

B. there are reports on the RME forums of stability with their interfaces in windows 8
Not getting your point ?

I noted one RME interface which has been a staple for many right up to and including Win7 , where it simply will not work under Windows 8 without hacking in the the legacy FW driver, which due to it being unsigned is deleted again on reboot.

I have had no issue with FF800 or the HDSPe cards , I didn't say anything about a blanket issue with RME in Win 8.

Quote:
C. I tried to subnote the post off of the cakewalk blog by saying obviously ymmv considering your specific setup.... Why isn't this quantifiable? Their tests were and usually are good.. It's not like he is trying to sell you sonar.. Also, he's a noted windows expert, I thought it would be a helpful link
The Cakewalk tests are using a Metric that is difficult if not impossible to correlate to Real World DAW performance IMO , its simply a scale of a meter used by internal development for measuring background processes. How that actually translates to performance is the real question. Spitting out % improvements via a meter metric that has no direct quantifiable correlation to actual achieved DAW performance is of little value.

There has been lengthy debate already on this and I have gone into great detail on other threads , presenting my own quantifiable data based on test that are in the public domain that anyone can duplicate if they had the time and energy. I have also tried to engage the Cakewalk devs after I was dragged into a thread over at their forums , where I have asked them to detail the correlation and relevance of their meter metric.

Its pretty much the sound of silence since I entered the thread.

Draw your own conclusions.

Now understand I am not saying that Win8 performs worse than Win7, what I detail is that there is no performance advantage.

Whether end users prefer the tiles is totally up to them, but from a performance / compatibility perspective , I'll stick with the tried and true.

#95
10th December 2012
Old 10th December 2012
  #95
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Ok. Point Dexter.
#96
10th December 2012
Old 10th December 2012
  #96
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Main use for PC is music work else just internet, email and media. Whilst initial positive impressions definaterly quirky in respect to workflow with mouse vs W7.
#97
12th December 2012
Old 12th December 2012
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
Not getting your point ?

I noted one RME interface which has been a staple for many right up to and including Win7 , where it simply will not work under Windows 8 without hacking in the the legacy FW driver, which due to it being unsigned is deleted again on reboot.

I have had no issue with FF800 or the HDSPe cards , I didn't say anything about a blanket issue with RME in Win 8.



The Cakewalk tests are using a Metric that is difficult if not impossible to correlate to Real World DAW performance IMO , its simply a scale of a meter used by internal development for measuring background processes. How that actually translates to performance is the real question. Spitting out % improvements via a meter metric that has no direct quantifiable correlation to actual achieved DAW performance is of little value.

There has been lengthy debate already on this and I have gone into great detail on other threads , presenting my own quantifiable data based on test that are in the public domain that anyone can duplicate if they had the time and energy. I have also tried to engage the Cakewalk devs after I was dragged into a thread over at their forums , where I have asked them to detail the correlation and relevance of their meter metric.

Its pretty much the sound of silence since I entered the thread.

Draw your own conclusions.

Now understand I am not saying that Win8 performs worse than Win7, what I detail is that there is no performance advantage.

Whether end users prefer the tiles is totally up to them, but from a performance / compatibility perspective , I'll stick with the tried and true.

I disagree (respectfully) and think that there are possible performance advancements.

Could you point me to these threads?

Also, it wouldn't be any more quantifiable if any of the cakewalk developers, in any thread, gave you any response vis a vis measurement<-->real-world-reference. There's numerous reasons to pay attention to this sort of test. But in the end, no matter how the test is performed in this situation, there will always be outlier systems (sometimes those will be ones that actually work, rather than the opposite!)

At the same time, of course take it with a grain of salt. It's just not a worthless grain of salt.

Peace
--a
#98
12th December 2012
Old 12th December 2012
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT View Post
And as a counter balance

Read in Here

Yeah.. that thread paints a more complex picture. I think I'm just gonna wait a year and let the dust settle!

Cheers..

RB
#99
12th December 2012
Old 12th December 2012
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Black View Post
Yeah.. that thread paints a more complex picture. I think I'm just gonna wait a year and let the dust settle!

Cheers..

RB
Same here however I would suggest you buy into the program before the promotional price ends because it's going to cost a lot more then.
#100
12th December 2012
Old 12th December 2012
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosleepPDX View Post
I disagree (respectfully) and think that there are possible performance advancements.
Thats your prerogative.

Quote:
Could you point me to these threads?
Sorry Mate, No, I have no interest in channelling traffic directly to their forums , nor discussing anything further to do with the Cake developers on this forum.

There are 2 threads that are easy enough to find by searching for my few recent posts , if you want to read in. Both threads have tumble weeds blowing thru them now, not to mention the signal to noise over there is not within the range I feel comfortable with.

Quote
1
#101
13th December 2012
Old 13th December 2012
  #101
#102
13th December 2012
Old 13th December 2012
  #102
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Its not faster , they bring no quantifiable evidence to support that claim and simply babble on about people needing to get jiggy with the new GUI !

I could easily make an argument for No Reason *to* Upgrade, buts whats the point.

#103
13th December 2012
Old 13th December 2012
  #103
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I think Rain ran a pretty balanced bench, and on average win 8 sneaks ahead if you're not running loads of live tiles etc.

Overall win 8 is just much nicer to use, feels really snappy, and is very stable. The first 20 mins are pretty alien, but the changes are really nowhere near as bad as what people make out.

All you need to learn are a few key commands and everything is right there, much more intuitive.

It still needs time for some drivers to mature, so research compatibilty before you upgrade.
#104
14th December 2012
Old 14th December 2012
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatisvalis View Post
I think Rain ran a pretty balanced bench, and on average win 8 sneaks ahead if you're not running loads of live tiles etc.
We will find our own truth.

Quote:
Overall win 8 is just much nicer to use... snip
I think what you meant to say was " IMO win 8 is just much nicer to use " , you will not find consensus on the prior.
#105
14th December 2012
Old 14th December 2012
  #105
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Installed RME UFX drivers and Reaper 64 on Win 8. Did 8ch, 24/96 tracking for half an hour. Flawless.........as expected (thanks to the RME's driver).

I didn't feel anything 'improved', though.

After two weeks, I started to like Win 8 UI, although other machines are either Win 7 or Win XP, so it's kind of confusing when I switch desks. Media players and PDF readers are kind of confusing.
mfx
#106
14th December 2012
Old 14th December 2012
  #106
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I am curious as I recall reading Win8 was meant to be better in utilising multicore processors and being more efficient. So I am wondering, until a lot of software is tweaked and makes use of the multicores are we not likely to see an improvement in Win8 until all the software devolper's have recoded?

I wouldn't expect to see an improvement on multitrack audio handling, but I was hoping to see better handling and lower cpu usage in the vst plugin department. Anyone care to contribute their knowledge to date?
#107
14th December 2012
Old 14th December 2012
  #107
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The true benefits of Win 8 will only show up after developers begin to take advantage of whatever it can do that W7 couldn't.

That's how it is with every new OS.
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#108
15th December 2012
Old 15th December 2012
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The true benefits of Win 8 will only show up after developers begin to take advantage of whatever it can do that W7 couldn't.

That's how it is with every new OS.
Coming apropos, Cakewalk has just announced that Sonar X2a will take full advantage of Win 8's gesture and multi-touch capabilities. I'm pretty sure one of the next Cubase 7 updates will include similar features.
#109
16th December 2012
Old 16th December 2012
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesEdward View Post
Lol! I was also at it for like a half hour trying figure out how shut down windows 8 the first time round. I know I could of just looked it up online, but my pride wasn't having it.
Just use ALT and F4 key combination.
This will exit any program and if you are on the desktop will show the shutdown menu. Been that way since 1990 if i remember correctly

Most admin stuff that you need occasionally is on the windows + x key combi.
#110
19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
  #110
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Cool

Alright I couldn't resist and went for the $39 upgrade. I did a CLEAN install.

First impression is it's pretty. Second impression is, I have no idea what I am doing and I suspect this thing is spying on me right and left. I don't like it being tied closely to a Microsoft account but that's another story.
The default applications suck BTW.

Other than that, the UAC and permissions are driving me crazy. For example, I like to create a shortcut to my download folder. Can't drag and drop it to desktop so I have to create one manually. Tried changing drive permissions and got all kinds of errors. Seems Microsoft really locked this one down tight. REAL TIGHT. From what I'm reading on the net, turning off UAC isn't really turning it off.

As for applications, Studio One 2.5, Addictive Drums, Ivory II, EZ/Superior Drummer, iLok all seem to work fine although I have gotten a few crackles with Ivory running on full steam. Never happened with Windows 7. The machine is n i7 3.0ghz with 8GB and 7200 RPM Seagate drives. Samples on their own drive.

Also having twin LCD monitors makes for a lot of mousing around to do things that were easy to do with Windows 7. It almost seems like I am running 2 operating systems at the same time, which I suppose I sort of am. Metro and classic Windows desktop.

I guess the good news is, nothing broke and all those drivers I had to manually enter for my Gigabyte X51a-UD3r board loaded on install fine.
That was nice.
Also my printer was added and all functions like fax, copy etc work without loading the manufacturers bloatware. That's nice too.

Delta 66 card also works fine.

So, I dunno...... Am I happy?
Not really.
I feel like there is a lot going on that I have little control over.

Has anyone put up a blog on how to streamline / tweak Windows 8 for digital audio yet?
That might be something to try but it has to be a professional, reliable person and not some basement dwelling hack type.

Just thought I would report in.
#111
19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
Alright I couldn't resist and went for the $39 upgrade. I did a CLEAN install.

First impression is it's pretty. Second impression is, I have no idea what I am doing and I suspect this thing is spying on me right and left. I don't like it being tied closely to a Microsoft account but that's another story.
The default applications suck BTW.

Other than that, the UAC and permissions are driving me crazy. For example, I like to create a shortcut to my download folder. Can't drag and drop it to desktop so I have to create one manually. Tried changing drive permissions and got all kinds of errors. Seems Microsoft really locked this one down tight. REAL TIGHT. From what I'm reading on the net, turning off UAC isn't really turning it off.

As for applications, Studio One 2.5, Addictive Drums, Ivory II, EZ/Superior Drummer, iLok all seem to work fine although I have gotten a few crackles with Ivory running on full steam. Never happened with Windows 7. The machine is n i7 3.0ghz with 8GB and 7200 RPM Seagate drives. Samples on their own drive.

Also having twin LCD monitors makes for a lot of mousing around to do things that were easy to do with Windows 7. It almost seems like I am running 2 operating systems at the same time, which I suppose I sort of am. Metro and classic Windows desktop.

I guess the good news is, nothing broke and all those drivers I had to manually enter for my Gigabyte X51a-UD3r board loaded on install fine.
That was nice.
Also my printer was added and all functions like fax, copy etc work without loading the manufacturers bloatware. That's nice too.

Delta 66 card also works fine.

So, I dunno...... Am I happy?
Not really.
I feel like there is a lot going on that I have little control over.

Has anyone put up a blog on how to streamline / tweak Windows 8 for digital audio yet?
That might be something to try but it has to be a professional, reliable person and not some basement dwelling hack type.

Just thought I would report in.
What makes you think Microsoft is "spying" on you? The Windows Account stuff (which isn't a requirement to just use Windows) enables synchronization across multiple machines, skydrive, Windows Phone, and more. It can also be the account you use to purchase apps in the Windows Store. The only things that get reported back are ones you've opted into ("Improve X by sending usage/error information to company Y" type stuff during install).

Multiple monitors: I get what you're saying there. I run two 30" displays on my Win8 machine. Learning the keyboard shortcuts will really help you out. Also, I use a new Logitech touchpad (my blog post on that) which gives me edge swipe gestures, pinch, and two finger scrolling. I find that makes it faster to use certain features.

As a power user, Windows + X will be your friend (same as right-clicking the bottom left corner of the screen)

Another thing you can do is offset the displays by a few pixels so your mouse will get trapped in the corner. That can make getting to the start page easier if you need to do it with a pointing device and your secondary monitor is on the left.

Crackles: you did a clean install, so likely don't have current drivers. Double-check that you've installed the latest drivers from the sound card manufacturer.

Downloads folder: Dragging that will move it just like in Win7. Shift-drag will let you create a shortcut, just as in Win7.

Locked down: The desktop side is about the same lockdown-wise as Win7. The permissions model there hasn't really changed, so not sure what you're trying to do that's different from Windows 7. If you're coming from XP (which I know you're not), yes, permissions have changed quite a bit.

Pete
#112
19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
What makes you think Microsoft is "spying" on you? The Windows Account stuff (which isn't a requirement to just use Windows) enables synchronization across multiple machines, skydrive, Windows Phone, and more. It can also be the account you use to purchase apps in the Windows Store. The only things that get reported back are ones you've opted into ("Improve X by sending usage/error information to company Y" type stuff during install).

I guess I'm paranoid as despite having been building my own systems since before the first IBM PC, I tend to keep my information as private as possible. I don't usually purchase apps from the various stores (Google Play, Windows etc) so maybe I misunderstood the requirement for having an account during the install of Windows 8. It appeared to me it's a needed item and at the time I wasn't sure how it's tied to my registration, authorizations etc if at all.


Multiple monitors: I get what you're saying there. I run two 30" displays on my Win8 machine. Learning the keyboard shortcuts will really help you out. Also, I use a new Logitech touchpad (my blog post on that) which gives me edge swipe gestures, pinch, and two finger scrolling. I find that makes it faster to use certain features.

As a power user, Windows + X will be your friend (same as right-clicking the bottom left corner of the screen)

Another thing you can do is offset the displays by a few pixels so your mouse will get trapped in the corner. That can make getting to the start page easier if you need to do it with a pointing device and your secondary monitor is on the left.

That's great advice! I'm learning the keyboard shortcuts and there are things I do like such as typing the program name on the start screen to access programs. That's very nice and I know it was present in Windows 7, more or less, but I never used it.

You are correct, keyboard shortcuts are a big time saver. It's kind of funny how an old command line junkie like me has come full circle back to the keyboard again.
It's kind of refreshing in fact.

Crackles: you did a clean install, so likely don't have current drivers. Double-check that you've installed the latest drivers from the sound card manufacturer.

Downloads folder: Dragging that will move it just like in Win7. Shift-drag will let you create a shortcut, just as in Win7.

I have the latest drivers and like I said it's only with Ivory and extremely intermittent. I tend to use Ivory full steam with 160 voices and at 64 samples and I play a lot of notes.I suspect it's related to Studio One 2.5 because I loaded up Reaper and not a single crackle. I'm talking about one slight crackle after 2 hours of playing so it's very, very intermittent.

I'd like to check the DPC but as far as I know, the checkers are not Windows 8 kernel compatible so they give false data.

All of a sudden now I can drag and drop the downloads folder. Really weird. So I can cross that one off the list


Locked down: The desktop side is about the same lockdown-wise as Win7. The permissions model there hasn't really changed, so not sure what you're trying to do that's different from Windows 7. If you're coming from XP (which I know you're not), yes, permissions have changed quite a bit.

Pete
With Windows 7 I turned off UAC, allowed display of hidden and system files and everything just sort of worked. With Windows 8 I've had a few problems not being able to access system folders. I'll have to dig deeper for more specifics but it's not a big deal as everything does seem to be working.

Thank you so much for the suggestions!
#113
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
  #113
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Given that any new OS brings compatibility problems, I wonder why people are so eager to upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8?

Is there anything in Win 8, missing from Win 7, that you simply must have?
#114
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMacMac View Post
Given that any new OS brings compatibility problems, I wonder why people are so eager to upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8?

Is there anything in Win 8, missing from Win 7, that you simply must have?
For me no there wasn't. It was just a convienient time to do it because of an hdisk failure.

I could have just used my Windows 7 image file on the new drive and been right back where I started. I still can if I want.

I had purchased Win 8 at the give away price and intended to wait a while before installing but things change
#115
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMacMac View Post
Given that any new OS brings compatibility problems, I wonder why people are so eager to upgrade from Win 7 to Win 8?

Is there anything in Win 8, missing from Win 7, that you simply must have?
Nothing for me too, at the moment. Win7 64bit is very close to complete/perfect OS for me, and all the workhorse machines still run on Win 7. But I'm going to get Win 8 Tablet/Ultrabook hybrid soon, and want to use it with my audio interfaces for location recordings. So, I'm testing just ahead of time, to get myself familialize to the new user interface.
#116
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy View Post
With Windows 7 I turned off UAC, allowed display of hidden and system files and everything just sort of worked. With Windows 8 I've had a few problems not being able to access system folders. I'll have to dig deeper for more specifics but it's not a big deal as everything does seem to be working.
In my experience, even on an Administrator account with UAC disabled, you need to explicitly use "Run as Administrator" with a lot of installers, scripts, and programs on Windows 8 that you didn't have to with Win 7. Many things just silently fail otherwise. Granted, this is mostly the developers' fault; software that follows all of Microsoft's design guidelines from Vista onward probably won't have these issues. But almost everyone's got something on their system that doesn't play by the rules.

If it's something I need to run a lot, I'll just make a shortcut for it and change the shortcut properties to force Run as Administrator.
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#117
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
  #117
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The only "problem" I had was, to get a driver and the needed utilities for my Epson printer. It's supported with a default class driver but this doesn't help because it doesn't have the ink-utilities. But the Epson Windows 7 drivers are working and so as a result it works the same like in Windows 7 - but not out of the box and needs some searching.
So there is this old problem that some companies don't have it on the high priority list to support a newer version of the OS. But this is not the mistake of Microsoft or Windows 8.
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#118
23rd December 2012
Old 23rd December 2012
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateOutsider View Post
In my experience, even on an Administrator account with UAC disabled, you need to explicitly use "Run as Administrator" with a lot of installers, scripts, and programs on Windows 8 that you didn't have to with Win 7. Many things just silently fail otherwise. Granted, this is mostly the developers' fault; software that follows all of Microsoft's design guidelines from Vista onward probably won't have these issues. But almost everyone's got something on their system that doesn't play by the rules.

If it's something I need to run a lot, I'll just make a shortcut for it and change the shortcut properties to force Run as Administrator.
This has been my experience too. When something acts weird, this is the first tactic I try and, so far, I have had success each time.

Given that, Win 8 64 has been a smooth transition from Win 7 64.
#119
24th December 2012
Old 24th December 2012
  #119
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I upgraded on a whim this past Saturday. (Win 7 64 to Win 8 64). Using Cubase 6.5 as my primary DAW. I had to download the latest drivers for the Elicenser. Stylus RMX could not find its library until I put UAC at the lowest setting (I assume that this means it is disabled). I also set Cubase to "Run As Administrator."

I had some Cubase hanging, which required hard reboot of the system, something I have not had to deal with for a very, very long time. Studio One seems perfectly fine. I had to reinstall Ableton Live Lite 8 for some reason. Everything kept its registration. This includes Native Instruments, Spectrasonics, Rapture and Arturia Minimoog V (uses same Elicenser as Cubase). The Cubase hanging may have been due to using the X to close it instead of the menu as I usually do. I'll be watching it a bit more closely. So far, it's my only concern with upgrading.

I set it up to bypass the login screen: How to bypass the Windows 8 log-in screen | Microsoft - CNET News

I went through the Apps section and right-clicked my favorite programs, selecting pin to start page. With a little bit of upfront effort, I have it configured for me. I have hated the Start Menu since Vista, so I much prefer the new start page.

The pictures app is great for scrolling through all of my folders of pictures. It would be even more fun with a touch screen, but even with a mouse, it's a lot better than anything we've had before with Windows.

I still don't care for the two separate interfaces. I would have preferred that they were more bold with changing the Desktop. That said, when I'm in the Desktop, it's as if nothing signifcant has changed. I'm using File History to back up all of my libraries to a USB drive. Anything that you want backed up, you simply put into a Library. You can create new Libraries by right-clicking on the folder or drive you want to include. (i.e. you could create a library called Z:Samples that backs up the entirety of the drive).

I like the weather and maps apps. I also like that Microsoft are creating some kind of cohesive ecosystem. I didn't become fully enveloped in the Google ecosystem overnight. I started with gmail and then slowly migrated to more Google services as they became convenient. I can see this happening with Microsoft. They have the money to survive the transition.

Worth it to upgrade? I'm glad I did, with one caveat -- I remain unsure about Cubase stability.

P.S. To close full-screen apps, put your mouse pointer at the top of the screen until it becomes a hand, then pull down to the bottom of the screen. Convenient.

Last edited by claurence; 24th December 2012 at 09:47 PM.. Reason: Add Windows versions
#120
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
  #120
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CharlesEdward is offline
Windows 8 is the shit!!!
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