WAVES S-1 Imager

[starscream2010]

So, I have more of a question than a problem and I'm curious if anyone else has run into this....

I use the WAVES S-1 stereo imaging plug-in on the gtr buss, most of the time, to give them more depth and it makes stereo gtrs (especially in choruses) seem larger.

The thing is, when I check the mix for mono compatibility, I seem to lose the guitars like they're out of phase and canceling each other out, but when I check in stereo it sounds like it should.

So I guess my question is.... should I be worried about this, especially regarding mp3's being played on Ipod's and such? According to the WAVES documentation it:

"Enhances stereo spatial effect
Remixing and rebalancing existing stereo mixes for remastering
Retains mono compatibility
Avoids phasiness effects
No alterations of tonal quality; no unwanted added effects
Simply brings out what is already there in the stereo mix"

Do you think that my ears are deceiving me?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Nick

[Leo Badinella]

Originally Posted by starscream2010

...
Do you think that my ears are deceiving me? ...

Do not, under any circumstance, EVER doubt your ears. Your ears will always be truth the the actual physical phenomenon. If any, the wrongness would be on the part of your brain or your taste. Not the ears. (unless you are deaf of course, or had an accident and lost part of your hearing or something...)

You will never change the way your ears hear, you just change the judgement you make about what you are hearing.

That being said. I believe the way S1 works -and any other stereo enhancer for that matter-, is by introducing subtle phase anomalies into the stereo spectrum. The brochure may say that S1 "avoids phasiness effects" which can perfectly mean "We'll mess with your spectrum's phase but you're free to stop us when you think it's enough (therefore "avoiding" phase issues by conveying the responsibility to the user).

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I use stereo enhancers too.

[pingu]

Originally Posted by starscream2010

So, I have more of a question than a problem and I'm curious if anyone else has run into this....

I use the WAVES S-1 stereo imaging plug-in on the gtr buss, most of the time, to give them more depth and it makes stereo gtrs (especially in choruses) seem larger.

The thing is, when I check the mix for mono compatibility, I seem to lose the guitars like they're out of phase and canceling each other out, but when I check in stereo it sounds like it should.

So I guess my question is.... should I be worried about this, especially regarding mp3's being played on Ipod's and such? According to the WAVES documentation it:

"Enhances stereo spatial effect
Remixing and rebalancing existing stereo mixes for remastering
Retains mono compatibility
Avoids phasiness effects
No alterations of tonal quality; no unwanted added effects
Simply brings out what is already there in the stereo mix"

Do you think that my ears are deceiving me?

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Nick

No your ears are not deceiving you.

Don't believe everything you read.

S1 is quite good but in a mastering situation no more than a little is need if at all.

I think the better alternative is to setup ms encoding and adjust the side channel.

[starscream2010]

Originally Posted by Leo Badinella

Do not, under any circumstance, EVER doubt your ears. Your ears will always be truth the the actual physical phenomenon. If any, the wrongness would be on the part of your brain or your taste. Not the ears. (unless you are deaf of course, or had an accident and lost part of your hearing or something...)

You will never change the way your ears hear, you just change the judgement you make about what you are hearing.

That being said. I believe the way S1 works -and any other stereo enhancer for that matter-, is by introducing subtle phase anomalies into the stereo spectrum. The brochure may say that S1 "avoids phasiness effects" which can perfectly mean "We'll mess with your spectrum's phase but you're free to stop us when you think it's enough (therefore "avoiding" phase issues by conveying the responsibility to the user).

Anyway, this is just my opinion. I use stereo enhancers too.

Thank you, now, I don't feel crazy

[starscream2010]

Originally Posted by pingu

No your ears are not deceiving you.

Don't believe everything you read.

S1 is quite good but in a mastering situation no more than a little is need if at all.

I think the better alternative is to setup ms encoding and adjust the side channel.

Is there a way to set up MS encoding, within the daw? Wouldn't I have, had to record the gtr's with an encoder to make this work? Just curious...

[a2dpapi]

and make sure that this plug in (and not pdc, or something else) is causing what you are hearing. I have seen world class mastering engineers use this plug-in judiciously on prints with great success. Usually a width of less than 1.4.

[Lagerfeldt]

I'd say less than 1.2 (or preferably not at all). There are better ways than the S1.

[pingu]

Originally Posted by starscream2010

Is there a way to set up MS encoding, within the daw? Wouldn't I have, had to record the gtr's with an encoder to make this work? Just curious...

Voxengo MSED
its free

[dave-G]

You guys are ascribing blame and/or mojo to this plugin where none is due.

the S1 "imager" is nothing but an M-S matrix with a slider that changes the level of S relative to M. Width ratio slider goes up, side channel goes up, Mid goes down, and et voila, it's "wider" ..

Besides the L-R tilting (which is also non-mysterious) there's nothing else to it, unless you use the shuffler version, in which case it adds a little something like a Blumlein shuffler (which only affects lower frequencies, and is also basically mono-compatible). I've personally never found a good use for the Shuffler part of it. .. but that's another story.

If you're hearing phase cancellation on your guitars when going to mono, you'd probably hear it just about as well, without the S1. All the "Width" control on the S1 can do is exaggerrate the existing differences between what's already in phase and what's already out of phase between channels, and again, it does so simply by adding level to the S while taking away from the M .. etc etc.

And to answer the question of doing "Easy M-S" for other processing, the S1 is actually a good tool. There's an S1 MS matrix, which will do nothing but encode a signal to MS, and then you can put any version of the regular S1 plug into MS input mode (bottom left area of the plugin window) to decode it back to L-R stereo ... if you leave the width control at 1.0, it's not changing the M-S ratio. Insert your favorite outboard or plugins inbetween the two and tweak to your M-S heart's content. If all you're doing is widening/narrowing, the S1 is doing the MS encoding and decoding internally.

PS the S1(48) is good for the re-matrixing task, even if you don't use the shuffler, because it's 48-bit double precision.

Jeez, as much as I'm a WUP-hater, I feel like I might just have made some sales for Waves (slaps forehead).

-dave

[Lagerfeldt]

You are of course right.

But I don't think anyone was blaming the S1 as such, but rather not recommending it as the best way of obtaining width.

In that case I would suggest equalizing using M/S (especially on the S) or perhaps a bit of distortion /saturation to the S.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by dave-G

the S1 "imager" is nothing but an M-S matrix with a slider that changes the level of S relative to M. Width ratio slider goes up, side channel goes up, Mid goes down, and et voila, it's "wider" ..

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

In that case I would suggest equalizing using M/S (especially on the S) or perhaps a bit of distortion /saturation to the S.

Limited experience with this plugin, but isn't it doing the distortion and/or limiting trick on the sides, or is it just level?

[Lagerfeldt]

The S1 isn't doing anything apart from changing the M/S levels, so you need to do distortion or eq yourself.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

The S1 isn't doing anything apart from changing the M/S levels, so you need to do distortion or eq yourself.

Duly noted. Thanks

[chester]

The thing is not to overdo it and know when to stop. I feel its better on the whole mix than on subgroups or single tracks. S1 is really a great tool. Its the same with "overequalizing" or "overcompression". Its only a good taste and experience, than you know when to stop and have a good deal with it.

[NuSkoolTone]

When used to extremes (3.0) I find S1 tends to suck the mids out a little bit, but it's very effective at what it does. Of course, I don't really understand M-S decoding and such, so I'd imagine it's sucking out all the Mid and giving me all the side?

[Lagerfeldt]

I think there's no use for extreme settings (or indeed any setting above 1.4) for anything else than very extreme cases or special effects.

However, I did find a (very rare) use for the shuffle function.

[cap217]

I have found the S1 to be nice on the master fader (if needed) set to 1.25 to 1.29. It kind of opens up the mix but never use it over 1.29.

I am still interested in the 48bit encoding that was talked about earlier... can someone explain this to me to mabe insert on a master fader for all my plugs?