I got Satson first and then later Slate VCC. I personally found having VCC on every track added too much noise, even with Hiss auto mute on. A mixture of VCC and Satson works better IMO.
But I'm detecting a definite subtle improvement with these plugins when you mix into them. Confirmation bias? Don't know but works for me.
I demo'ed Satson and I swear I hear zero effect on it. However.. I can't say that I placed it on every single channel and turned the "FAT" switch on.
Anybody notice a difference w/ Satson alone?
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I rencently tracked an electronic project through an API 1608, fader outputs into ProTools, along with a stereo mix of what we were hearing in the control room.
All faders were at 0, so in theory the multitrack playback should sound pretty similar to the 2buss mix, although without the API's summing.
When later mixing at home in CuBase with Satson on each channel, there was definitely something missing. I then switch on FAT on all the individual tracks (8 of them I believe), and it was much much closer to the sound of the 2buss mix.
There's still something special about mixing through the API board, but I do like mixing through the Satsons when at home. I don't use the FAT all the time, but it's on quite a bit. Nicely filters on them as well.
I have been using the Studer A800 from UAD. Similar to the Slate stuff. It goes on every track as the first plugin on any mix I am doing.
I started thinking that there is no way this should be just thrown on every track but I always bypass anything I do to A/B and it was always just a little better with the Studer on. Until last night, I had one guitar part that the Studer made it sound worse, no matter how I tweaked, so it didn't go on that track. It was nice to finally find a situation where I didn't want to use it.
Confirmation Bias is real and you have to A/B things while compensating for level, louder sounds better. But as long as you are aware of it you can make decisions and avoid just wanting something to sound better.
Using this type of plugin, like others have already said is not a night and day thing, really most things aren't night and day but just another tool, to make those small steps to the exact sound you want.
If you don't hear a positive difference, then don't use it, simple.
I demo'ed Satson and I swear I hear zero effect on it. However.. I can't say that I placed it on every single channel and turned the "FAT" switch on.
Anybody notice a difference w/ Satson alone?
There is a difference but more subtle still with Satson, though Satson is easier on noise and hiss. I think VCC has the edge in the video below but, like I say, Satson is less noisy.
You could hear the differences clearly with good reference monitors. Which is kind of interesting as a large part of consumers listen to music via iPods/iPad headphones and I doubt they hear anything special with 128k streams... Oh well.
Im surprised so many people say they can't hear the difference. Just switching between the different consoles in VCC changes the tone pretty drastically.
Just inserting VTM on a track or buss you should hear the extra bass it adds (which i personally don't love and usually adjust it) but aside from that both tape types and machine have their own sound. Make sure you're giving it a decent amount of signal and if you still cant hear it drive it harder until you do.
These types of plugs aren't magic and people made great mix's itb without them and still do, but to see people imply that its placebo or just a fancy gui is misleading and untrue.
You could hear the differences clearly with good reference monitors. Which is kind of interesting as a large part of consumers listen to music via iPods/iPad headphones and I doubt they hear anything special with 128k streams... Oh well.
Yes, but that is another subject of its own...
The consequence would be throwing all the superb sounding high end gear and plugins out of the window and use plain DAWs with stock plugins instead?
No, because I think the more satisfied one is with the tools one uses, the better the result will be in the end - independent of the low end devices it will be played back on by most of the consumers.
Yes, but that is another subject of its own...
The consequence would be throwing all the superb sounding high end gear and plugins out of the window and use plain DAWs with stock plugins instead?
No, because I think the more satisfied one is with the tools one uses, the better the result will be in the end - independent of the low end devices it will be played back on by most of the consumers.
I agree. I have more fun with really good reference monitors, spend more time in the studio, more quality work with mixing and so on. However, I'm pretty much aware that most of this work will not be noticed by an average consumer. Same with all these tape saturation and analog warmth plug-ins.
However, I'm pretty much aware that most of this work will not be noticed by an average consumer.
Those who cut the checks and hire us can tell and do notice. In twenty years I don't ever think I have ever done a mix thinking about what the average consumer will say. The artists, the producers, the a&r's, the label heads, the film directors, studio heads, etc. can all tell and do notice. IMO, the mindset that the "average consumer will never notice" is not healthy for long term success in this business.
With that said it's the driver, not the car. As long as the car is in good shape
I really don't care if some end user with their 128bit MP3s, nickel converters and buck fifty earbuds can't hear the difference. If I am a DP I'm shooting with quality movie projection in mind, not 240 quality YouTube vids. And as an audio engineer, I mix with the best possible playback environment in mind, not the worst or even the average.
Now, if you as an engineer can't hear any difference between i.e. VTM and no VTM, or VCC and no VCC, in your own home studio, it's time to seriously rethink your monitoring situation.
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"Don't ever let the position of a control or the activity of a meter have any influence whatsoever on what you end up choosing. Close your eyes if you need to, and just move it around until it feels right. Open your eyes, note the position without judgment, and move on. And if you ever hear a voice that says "I shouldn't have to set it that high/low/up/down/whatever", thank that voice for stopping by and promptly ignore it." (Gregory Scott - ubk)
Those who cut the checks and hire us can tell and do notice. In twenty years I don't ever think I have ever done a mix thinking about what the average consumer will say. The artists, the producers, the a&r's, the label heads, the film directors, studio heads, etc. can all tell and do notice. IMO, the mindset that the "average consumer will never notice" is not healthy for long term success in this business.
Yes. But that's the truth, you can't avoid that. The average consumer is more interested in a catchy hook or the artist than in the sound itself. It this was the opposite, consumers would abhor 128k Spotify streams and demand high quality audio everywhere, including analog warmth.
Also demoed Slate VTM and found it nice but too heavy on CPU. Maybe next year when I upgrade my PC.
Yeah, it's a bit heavy on CPU. I'm in the process of migrating away from UAD and Powercore cards, so I'm getting nervous about CPU loads... especially with some of the ITB reverbs I've been auditioning lately.
On the other hand... if the CPU load gets too heavy, I could batch-render all the tracks with VTM added at the start of a project before any other plugins are loaded, then re-import. That's how you'd work in a tape-based tracking studio, after all. It's a commitment to that sound, and then you mix into it. Pre-rendering with VTM would be a little more work, but not that hard with batch processing. It seems to be the way this type of effect should be used, if it's used at all. I can't see it (personally) as a single-track effect.
Yeah, it's a bit heavy on CPU. I'm in the process of migrating away from UAD and Powercore cards, so I'm getting nervous about CPU loads... especially with some of the ITB reverbs I've been auditioning lately.
On the other hand... if the CPU load gets too heavy, I could batch-render all the tracks with VTM added at the start of a project before any other plugins are loaded, then re-import. That's how you'd work in a tape-based tracking studio, after all. It's a commitment to that sound, and then you mix into it. Pre-rendering with VTM would be a little more work, but not that hard with batch processing. It seems to be the way this type of effect should be used, if it's used at all. I can't see it (personally) as a single-track effect.
I've got a UAD Solo, which I quite like. I mainly use the Cambridge (great for high pass and surgical stuff), Dimension D, 140 reverb and a couple of others. Don't buy the expensive ones. I've also got a PowerCore Compact with Access Virus, which gets used a lot. My PC is getting a bit old now in computer terms: gigabyte ex58-ud5, I7, 6 gigs ram.
But I also like native plugins a lot and IMO the VTM is just too CPU heavy regarding what I have to forsake to use just 2 instances.
I don't like freezing tracks and I don't like going much over 60% CPU. It probably comes down to how you work. I like to mix as I go and keep my options open.
I plan to build a monster PC next year so I'll probably see if I can get another demo of VTM then. If my new PC handles it better I may buy it then but for now I choose to do without.
One more point about auditioning something like VTM: It's always best to hear something like this with "raw" tracks you've recorded yourself, that haven't already been processed as samples in a virtual instrument. In other words, you'll hear more of what the plugin is doing as a tape emulator if you record your own snare hit and hear it through VTM, instead of slapping VTM on a track that's already been recorded on tape like say, one of the the Abbey Road drum VSTi's from NI.
That should probably go without saying, but so many people work with virtual instruments these days that it might not be immediately obvious. VTM may still be useful as a kind of mix glue for those working 100% with samples and synths, but I think where it can really shine is when you'd want that particular sound on a raw, real-world track. Damn, I think I'm talking myself into buying this...
You could hear the differences clearly with good reference monitors. Which is kind of interesting as a large part of consumers listen to music via iPods/iPad headphones and I doubt they hear anything special with 128k streams... Oh well.
Ooh false conclusion!! A game of inches and a game of tones isn't reflected by its target consumption format (although its all 192 these days). The differences are still there, and the emotive decision made by those who make the product. There is a reason, even in purile pop, that those who make slap dash decisions with ill regard for quality rarely surge ahead of the crowd! These kind of things are exactly what pushes the few that succeed ahead of the crowd!
Here's a quick beat I just threw together with the VCC and VTM with nothing but a Jupiter 8, me beatboxing and using my pants for percussion lol and some drum samples. I purposely slammed the desk and the tape machines. I like the way it sounds.
Not entirely sure about theses type of plugins myself.. there seems to be differing opinions
1. Wow the difference is night and day ! I can clearly hear the difference it's so obvious can't you ? ( I get the feeling they are saying this to appear "pro" like they have golden ears and the rest don't)
2. Hmm I'm not so sure ..I think I can hear a difference (the more honest approach..but not wanting to appear too amateur )
3.I can't hear any difference ...do you think it's my room/monitors ? (the "I don't care what you make of me" producer/engineer)
I'm #2 ,for me they are a work flow killer for relatively little gain ..by the time I have saturated/filtered/EQ'd everything, the subtleties of theses plugs are well lost in the mix ,but then again i mostly do electronic based music everything is smashed !!!
If I were recording acoustic instrument/voices maybe it would be a different story
The technical aspect of these plugs is phenomenal, I have the utmost respect for the programmer but...to say that a plug emulating a 15ips tape machine will add more depth or low end to your recording, or that a console plugin will give more transparency I can't get my head around.
What is more transparent than the original file? It can sound different (more top, more bottom, duller, warmer, whatever adjective you might use) but all you'd be hearing is an altered sound and you can do that by all manner of means within the DAW you're using.
One of the best pop mixers the UK has ever produced I know very well (I won't name him because he'd be embarrassed) uses an old copy of Cubase (5), a few plugs like L2 but mainly uses the stock plugs with Cubase and monitors through a Mackie desk with AR18 speakers (old Quad 405 amp) he gets mixes to die for, why? experience, talent, ears (not necessarily in that order) He has one AT4030 mic set up in the corner of his room that he used to record vocals/guitars and usually has workmen banging away outside...
I've been demoing some console, tape & tube saturation plugins like in the AlexB line. After so many attempts to try and hear a difference between original and processed mixes, I honestly just couldn't hear it. It was the same thing with the new Slate tape plugin too.
Is there something going on in the highs, lows, the 'glue', the wideness, that I'm just not hearing? The effect is so subtle that I could probably get a bigger difference by boosting +1 decibel with any random EQ on the mix somewhere.
Dont't worry if you can't hear much of a difference right now.
Concentrate yourself rather to create a strong emotional impact within the mix. This is the most important thing anyway. The rest comes with time.
The VCC is great, the effect of mixing on a large format console is also fairly subtle the VCC really captures that vibe, brilliantly.
After I have mixed into the VCC from the start of a mix and I bypass all the VCC instances then "oops" where's my mix gone.
I hate this term, it's so over used, but in my world of ITB mixing (apart from master bus compression and HEDD "tape" with a small "t" FX) the VCC has truly been a "game changer"
I haven't tried the Slate tape emulation yet, I tried the UAD Studer tape plugin but to be honest I celebrated with a glass of champagne the day I sold my last multi-track tape recorder and a plugin that pretends you have changed recording medium doesn't really grab me except for making 70's emulation tunes for novelty value, which can be fun of course.
If I were recording acoustic instrument/voices maybe it would be a different story
Bingo - THIS stuff is sterilised in DAWs without saturation. It's something we took for granted (the SUBTLE distortions) on consoles and tape machines and something we thought we were avoiding by recording with excellent gain structure. We often didn't really see that there were still tiny silky amounts making our jobs easier. I used to mix records in 6 to 8 hours. I still do it now - but I went through a 20 hour cycle for many years with plugins!!
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