Logic to Studio One

[apoclypse]

I haven't made the jump perse, but I've been slowly migrating towards S1. It doesn't give me the level of control, options, features, or even plugins that Logic has but its a pretty good DAW, with a great workflow. Its nice that the developers concentrated on workflow instead of glitzy features that only halfway work. They are taking their sweet time implementing needed things though.

I agree on the whole Logic issue. Its gotten to the point where I don't even want to work in Logic anymore. The freezing issue has been there since OSX Lion and here we are a whole version later with no fix from Apple. I'm sorry but to me this is an urgent fix that should have already been addressed.

[KorgAddict]

S1 seems to be the closest to Logic, workflow-wise. If you already have a good collection of VIs,, the included FX have good reviews, so you would be all set. I'm still on SL so i don't have the GUI problem, but if i was, i would be out of myself for seeing Apple not act on this. Totally unacceptable in my book.

KA

[Tommy D]

I have all but completely made the switch. I miss the Logic comping, but I am getting by and an update is upcoming, so we will see. There are some midi things I miss but then again nothing is a deal-breaker for me. The improvements for me over Logic outweigh the few niggles I have.

[Lawrence]

That's where to investigate mostly, midi.

S1's midi routing (as one example) is pretty much non-existent. If there is a major hurdle for you re: switching from something like Logic it will likely have something to do with midi editing operations, or midi routing.

As another example - a somewhat curious oversight really - no legato.

It may all balance out for you overall. For some it does, for others it doesn't.

[bruno garza]

Originally Posted by 79reubenp

Have pretty much had enough of Logic after 8 years - the final straw being this GUI lag when it will not respond to keystrokes or mouse.

Do you have a Logic Project that you can upload somewhere that shows this.
I'm curious to see what's causing this because I've yet to encounter this.

I'm doing some pretty crazy stuff in The Environment

Logic - YouTube

and I can't see myself leaving Logic because The Environment is where it's at.
So if you can show this problem I'll try to investigate the issue.

[Clonkified]

I went from Logic to S1...and now back to Logic. S1 is great, but for me it was missing some KEY functionality - specifically, recording buses (coming in 2.5), better automation workflow (Logic's and PT's is great), better overlap recording handling, better plugin management in insert / send menus, and finally...a decent color scheme for clips.

Logic FEELS better to work in for me, even though S1 has a lot of great functionality and workflow. Only you can figure out what is important and what will be missed. Check the demo.

[claesbjo]

Zooming is a pain in the a** if you like me rely on Logic´s "Zoom Tool" for navigating.

S1 is OK and key commands are pretty easy to set like Logic´s, think it´s got a KC Logic preset.

If you are an advanced/long time Logic user you will probably miss many things, it so much deeper than S1.

S1 is much snappier than Logic, but I´m not sure it is as cpu effective, things may go down faster with S1 than Logic, due to the hybrid mix engine of Logic, and also the fact that Logic´s channelstrips and it´s plugins are only active when audio is actually passing through, while studio 1´s plugs are always (afaik) on.

[79reubenp]

Thanks for all the responses - the logic bug that is driving people insane is well documented below:

Apple Logic Pro UI Latency Problem (9.1.7) Osx 10.7.x - 10.8 - YouTube

Logic GUI is slow (how to for Apple support) - YouTube

Logic 9.1.7 GUI slow lag under Mountain Lion or Lion - YouTube

https://discussions.apple.com/thread...rt=15&tstart=0

Logic Pro Help • View topic - Unresponsive Logic 9.1.x + 10.7.x & 10.8.x

I would love to stay with Logic because it will be a right PITA to change, got hundreds of projects that I may need to go back too, loads of ideas on the way and my own templates etc. But with Apples refusal to even hint at whether they are fixing problems like this it is increasingly becoming a matter of principle. Particularly when one has shelled out £2500 on a Mac Pro specifically to run Logic for it's total integration - just not acceptable at all.

Gonna download the demo and spend a few hours with Studio One Two, my other concern is that Ill shell out the cash and Apple will fix the bug within weeks but must draw the line at some stage!

[nott]

after years i switched from logic 9 to cubase 6.
and i'm more than happy.
it's so stable and there are many useful options in cubase.
so, i would also try cubase!

[raymondwave]

I was a Logic user for maybe 8 years or so too. Switched to Studio One six weeks ago and I haven't looked back for a while now, first few weeks I wasn't sure. I also got tired of many things in Logic, that lag being one.

You'll feel a bit weird for a few days/weeks because of the differences that will always be there when changing a program. The zooming is different. The virtual instrument handling is different. The processor load is different.

Get the demo and use it exclusively for a few weeks and see if you like it. If you get past the point where you can produce without posting forums about how to do this and how to do that, you've switched. Took me around two weeks.

Pros
+ snappy engine, even with high cpu load
+ automation accuracy
+ automation workflow
+ audio editing
+ single screen gui
+ quick workflow in general
+ practically zero crashes so far (in logic almost daily..)
+ drag & dropping

Cons
- zooming is weird at first
- by default only one plugin window open at a time, but you can "pin" them
- automation lacks "live" beziers
- cpu load is very high even when idle
- GUI is not the nicest but it's ok, tracks/events are a bit messy
- send sliders not very sensitive, i'd prefer knobs to horizontal sliders
- doesn't show incoming midi chords, notes or velocity
- no dedicated plugin manager
- track/mixer(console) relationship can be tricky at first
- drag & dropping (yes, it's sometimes a nuisance too)

I feel very inspired working with S1 tho, even if it has a few cons. The pros definately outweigh cons. I'm still looking forward to seeing new Logic, but who knows what happens. Happy using S1 at the moment. I'm happy for Studio One because I couldn't see myself going to Cubase, Ableton, ProTools, FL ..

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by 79reubenp

Thanks for all the responses - the logic bug that is driving people insane is well documented below:

If the Logic GUI bug was caused by Lion & Mountain Lion, what was the factor that required you to upgrade the os to Lion/ML instead of staying on SL 10.6?

(I was thinking about upgrading SL 10.6 to ML 10.8 but I guess it's not a good idea.)

[Leevi]

Originally Posted by nott

after years i switched from logic 9 to cubase 6.
and i'm more than happy.
it's so stable and there are many useful options in cubase.
so, i would also try cubase!

+ 1

If you ever want to leave Logic, I would seriously consider Cubase. It may be even "better" than Logic.

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by Leevi

It may be even "better" than Logic.

Not on the Apple Mac platform. If one wants the best experience of switching to Cubase, it's best to also switch the operating system for the DAW to Windows. Cubase is not optimized on Mac OS X like Logic is.

[Leevi]

Originally Posted by Jason West

Not on the Apple Mac platform. If one wants the best experience of switching to Cubase, it's best to also switch the operating system for the DAW to Windows. Cubase is not optimized on Mac OS X like Logic is.

I know a quite of folks who have changed from Logic to Cubase on mac. Its definitely true that it works better on Windows, but there are also some problems like windows management.

[pinkheadedbug]

I switched about a year ago. I grind my teeth every time I have to go back into Logic.

PROS
-- much easier assignment and organisation of plugins and VIs
-- far snappier
-- nice input monitoring
-- easier to organise inputs/outpts, and view input levels etc
-- stability
-- ability to do stuff without having to RTFM every time
-- mastering!

CONS
-- zoom is a bit awkward at first
-- destructive recording means it's too easy to destroy takes by accidentally leaving a channel armed. Layers are only created in loop mode on subsequent passes -- this is S1's single biggest failing. There is no default for new recordings to go to new layers.
-- GUI could use some prettying, especially in automation mode (mostly a color palette issue)
-- inability to use Logic instruments and FX

[raymondwave]

Originally Posted by pinkheadedbug

-- GUI could use some prettying, especially in automation mode (mostly a color palette issue)

Have you checked "Smooth edges of automation envelopes" in Options? This makes a huge difference and I don't understand why they default with non anti-aliased automation, it made my eyes sore before I noticed this option. It's true that the color palette is quite limited with automation, haven't seen this a problem tho since it needs to jump out of the clip color anyway.

I also think it looks much better if the "Draw events translucent" is on and the clips aren't so in-your-face colored.

[mat1]

Is there a way in S1 to change the color of the Arrange background? any different skins so it's not so dark?

[raymondwave]

About arrange bg, not that I know of. I also hope there won't be skins, I don't mind a few options, but skins definately no. Endless customization options take energy from music making..

[oceantracks]

-- zoom is a bit awkward at first
-- destructive recording means it's too easy to destroy takes by accidentally leaving a channel armed. Layers are only created in loop mode on subsequent passes -- this is S1's single biggest failing. There is no default for new recordings to go to new layers.
-- GUI could use some prettying, especially in automation mode (mostly a color palette issue)
-- inability to use Logic instruments and FX

AND....

Unbelievably inept at tempo/beat mapping as compared to Logic, which has that department elegantly handled and deadly effective.

[Lawrence]

The previous posters have (imo), very accurately and fairly summed up most of S1's subjective drawbacks / missing features / cons.

I only owned Logic for a short time in the v8 cycle so I can't speak intelligently about it, to make a direct or concise or accurate comparison of Logic to anything, but I can offer a generic pro/con list of S1...

Some Generic Pros:
+ Easy, fast & non-invasive install. It doesn't patch or upgrade, just installs.
+ Licensing. 5 activation's which they reset on demand.
+ All of it's parts are online, downloadable, always on the cloud.
+ Will install and run from a USB key, if the attached system has a valid license.
+ Free unlimited track version with no licensing or activation (for associates maybe).
+ Various optional extensions available for extended functionality.
+ Bouncing and stemming tracks or instruments is about as easy as it gets.
+ Plays overlapping (or stacked) audio events, globally or per audio part.
+ Audio tracks (and any VST3 plugs on them) switch mono/stereo directly.
+ Opens Steinberg *.xml directly and uses Open TL for exchanges.
+ Arrange folders can also be bus / group tracks.
+ It's macro system is a bit more advanced (and friendlier) than most, with action arguments.
+ Rename media clips directly from a toolbar menu. GM instrument names come installed with macro toolbar.
+ Freeze is implemented well, allowing full editing through the freeze cycle.
+ Realtime clip insert FX with clip freeze independent of track freeze.
+ Combination clips that contain both audio and midi data, edit both at the same time.
+ Nicely implemented groove quantize functions.
+ Exceptional console design as relates to managing, navigating, source / destination jumping.
+ Direct hardware monitoring (zero latency, proprietary, cue mixes) is likely the best in native.
+ Arrange and mixer track list / visibility scenes, including automation envelopes.
+ One of the better plugin UI designs out there.
+ Allows renaming of audio plugin and instrument instances.
+ Fully discreet (separated) unlimited aux and cue sends, independently switchable to zero latency.
+ Automation lanes can be moved anywhere or envelopes grouped in any way and group edited.
+ Dedicated automation track class. Edit groups of random envelopes in a single track lane.
+ RMS and K-Metering throughout, + a nice collection of metering / analyzation plugs.
+ Fast bug fixes. Responsive dev team.

Some Generic Cons:
- Midi routing / multing is ... completely missing.
- No musical scoring (and publicly stated that it wont ever happen)
- Missing a few common midi functions like Legato.
- No midi list editor or in-place key editing or conditional (logical) midi editing.
- Editors are singular, i.e., you can't have two midi or audio editors open at once.
- No "random clip grouping" per se (across tracks), only track grouping.
- Track grouping options are limited, no pan ganging for example.
- No midi patch or bank lists library or system for hardware instruments.
- No midi faders or pans in the console for CC mixing.
- No "non-linear" arrangement or playback functions.
- No track templates for multi-output instruments.
- No automatic beat / tempo mapping.
- No mix scenes.
- No mono group busses.
- No FX sends from FX busses, you have to use group busses for that kinda thing.
- No overlapping / stacked midi clips on overdub, always merges.
- Inactive track layers don't currently physically move directly.
- Inactive track layers don't currently store / recall with freeze.
- No ASIO DM. You need PreSonus hardware for that, to manage that directly from the UI.
- Doesn't slave to incoming timecode.
- Stock instruments are usable but not at the level of Logic or some others.
- Some report it as being not the most cpu efficient host in their arsenal.
- Young DAW, requires some patience for some adopters, which is a con for some if the work is calling and subjectively critical features haven't yet been developed and released.

That about sums it up. Hope that helps.

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by 79reubenp

Thanks for all the responses - the logic bug that is driving people insane is well documented below:

Apple Logic Pro UI Latency Problem (9.1.7) Osx 10.7.x - 10.8 - YouTube

Logic GUI is slow (how to for Apple support) - YouTube

Logic 9.1.7 GUI slow lag under Mountain Lion or Lion - YouTube

https://discussions.apple.com/thread...rt=15&tstart=0

Logic Pro Help • View topic - Unresponsive Logic 9.1.x + 10.7.x & 10.8.x

Running Logic 9.1.7 on 10.7.4 without any issues and use a lot of plug-ins myself both Logic native ones as well as AU.

[valis]

This issue only shows up to the point where UI interactions completely 'stall' when several conditions are met imo. So if you don't fully target all the conditions in your normal workflow you may only notice some of the core issues with lesser symptoms, such as the playback head alignment & meters being 'out of sync with the music'. I've documented this elsewhere and suggested to some solutions (rolling back ProKit to the right version to match your Logic version pretty much solves this, but will be a problem if you use other ProApps).

This first symptom is actually imo due to PDC getting out of wack due to the hybrid mixing engine. Having a 1024 sample sized buffer is unusually large buffer in an era when we're used to working at *soundcard* driver latencies of 32-128 samples. And our workflows imo have changed over the years with the addition of PDC to almost all apps (first) and the cpu power we have to spare today (secondly) compared to say 10 years ago. Stacking up 10-15 linear filters at various points in the mixbus was something you simply couldn't do in 'native' format until both of those conditions were met. SO the point here is that what often occurs imo is that you 'stack' latencies with PDC much much higher than other DAW apps that run the core engine at the soundcard driver's setting rather than the hybrid mix approach. Cue 'why is the timeline so off' comments here...

The SECOND symptom is the GUI lag in general, which is demonstrably due to the changes that have occured in ProKit over the OSX updates, both major and minor. 7.0.0.1 (or was it 7.0.0.0.1?) is the 'best' version from the Logic 9.17's point of view as both 9.17 and 7.0.0.1 coexisted in time. As of 10.7.3 on there have been more & more complaints about this problem imo, and there's a GPU based component to the issue that can mitigate (or exacerbate) the problem as well. Since ProKit uses the OpenGL/QuartzGL based commands if the GPU is starved for GPU ram (too many background windows can do this to a 128MB/256MB card) or system bandwidth due to serving too many low latency devices...you can start to see performance problems. Throw in the first issue and things can start to feel laggy indeed.

Now when the system becomes fully unresponsive imo, is a THIRD condition that I think is somewhat related to the first. A bit of dabbling with DSP in general (whether coding or just using Max/Csound etc) will show that anything that does 'analysis' will tend to require its own internal buffer. Ie, Logic's internal Channel EQ surely uses an FFT based framework for the analyzer, and since everyone likes to kick it into the highest setting to improve the spectral resolution, most users are effectively setting it to the 'highest' FFT table size, which can be anything from 512 samples up to several thousand. Now most of the newer graphically heavy plugin GUI's do seem to lag in Logic right now anyway, especially on more current (10.7/10.8) OSes. This is again demonstrably related to ProKit, as things improve when you step back to the right version across all plugins. But Logic's EQ seems to be particularly bad as it seems to always be tracking the FFT based analysis even with plugin windows not open.

So if you already suffer more than others from the first 2 conditions (running a mix high on latency due to all the bus based processing & mastering plugins you're using PLUS use a newer OS especially with slightly older GPU's that may not have as much 'love' as a current model), and then you throw in the third problem by leaving Logic's EQ analyzing several tracks in the background... you'll suddenly find Logic doesn't "respond" when you hit spacebar or use the mouse. Others have mentioned in other threads though that Logic DOES still prioritize midi & related control signals, and I can confirm that if I use MMC or Midi based transport controls on any of my midi gear Logic still responds much quicker than the 'laggy' feeling spacebar.

So, roll back proKit (I have linked to this elsewhere) or just learn to disable the Analyzer when closing an EQ plugin until Logic is updated again. Or certainly use another DAW app if that suits you... I own several and still use Logic too.

[Spip]

Originally Posted by phas3d

Running Logic 9.1.7 on 10.7.4 without any issues and use a lot of plug-ins myself both Logic native ones as well as AU.

+1

[79reubenp]

Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. Definitely the analyser on channel plug ins that have been the critical link to the lag, went through a couple of projects switching then off and hey presto!! Guess ill stick with logic for the time being and see what the next upgrade brings and make a decision from then.

[serstickman]

Worked in Logic for many years. A friend told me about S1 and I downloaded the demo. I like a LOT about S1 when it's not crashing. I still use it to write with occasionally & the same with Logic. For tracking, mixing & mastering its Pro Tools for me.

[Mevlan Osmani]

I would highly suggest S1. Other than that, it’s future DAW.

[Polarelch]

I never looked back to Logic, and I had the same question, and a similar thread some months ago.
Studio One does have a few cons left, *but*:
* it has the better workflow
* the team behind it is much closer to to the user
* the development, updates, etc. goes, whereas Logic seems "dead"
* it just rocks.

[RRCHON]

Studio One still has some short comings when it comes to MIDI.

There are places where the less is more approach just does not work and regardless of what you do - there is no work around. Try interfacing with a VST Effect -> External Processor that can take or might require a program change message.

If the option was there and didn't work might bet better than not having nothing at all, even trying to get around SO with an external Loopback doesn't work cause it filters out program change when routing to the internal VST.

There have been many times when having a program that is just dumb and done as its told has made it more useful and less vexing overall than a program that tries to be too smart and gets in the way of something that should be relatively simple.

[ontariomaximus]

Sorry to veer off topic a little bit, but I could use a little help in optimizing S1. Just getting into it.
Here is my problem:
I have 2 tracks open - a midi with EZDrummer, and a recording track as I play along with it.

There are lags in my performance! I played a number of times and I thought is really was my performance but after a number of passes where I played exactly in time, the playback revealed I'm way late in spots. It's not latency, I know to deal with that - this problem is where the 'recorder' stutters and writes late, if you what I mean. It's not all the time, but at least every 5 or 10 seconds.

Tried bouncing the midi drum file to a wav and playing along with that - no difference.

Opened up the performance window and CPU usage didn't appear to spike.

Using an M-audio Audiophile 24/192 card.

Can do it perfectly in Cool Edit Pro (same computer)

Computer does meet the minimum requirements. I have 2 tracks open, no effects or anything else open.

Any help would be great. If I can get through this problem, I'll love S1, but if not, it's Reaper or Ableton Live.