Is there a need for consoles anymore?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by machoboy

However no studio looks complete without a massive console so I'm considering buying a large plank of wood, painting it black, then gluing 1,000 knobs to it just to feel vintage. People will walk in and go "Wow, I didn't know you were a professional!" then I'll just let the LEDs i installed in the wood flicker and look technical while I do everything on a computer.

Oh so you've used Tom Misners "Neve" then?

hahahaha

[bassjam]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Oh so you've used Tom Misners "Neve" then?

hahahaha

Ha ha ha ha! That's funny! Wasn't it designed by Heinz Beans though?

[goddfodder]

THE FUTURE IS NOW!

The way I work the whole concept of a console is something very alien to me. I do kinda think though that consoles are very much outdated and a thing of the past. No offence to anyone or anything,.. but to me it just seems like a bunch of old men clinging to the world they knew and everything they were told was right,... when in reality a tidal wave of change and of progress has engulfed their little world and is fast becoming everything they see. There's some bloody good daws out there, some bloody good fx plugins. There very good, and getting better all the time. A desks pretty static, its gonna be the same tomorrow as it will be in 15 years time. But plugins, change, they evolve,.. their getting better all the time. I believe their better now than a desk of 20 years ago. I believe in 30 years time NOBODY will use a desk to make music. I believe im part of the next generation,.. and musics all about whats current and whats up and coming. I'm sure the age of the desk was a great great thing,.. but wake up guys,.. ITS A DIFFERENT CENTURY NOW.

[TRJanuary]

So how do you "consoles are obsolete" guys produce 6 different ZERO LATENCY headphone mixes for $20,000 worth of union session talent? Clock is ticking.

Wake me up when the "NEW CENTURY," and the inexperienced engineers who dwell there, have a solution to this.

[goddfodder]

I think I'll leave you to sleep mate,... meanwhile some of us have music to make.

To be fair i could name any 1 of a thousand things you can do with modern technology that a desk cant do,... like,.. seriously dont you know that??? Maybe not as experienced as any kind of dinosaur, but sooner or later that kind of experience too, will be obsolete.

[Goddard]

Originally Posted by TRJanuary

So how do you "consoles are obsolete" guys produce 6 different ZERO LATENCY headphone mixes for $20,000 worth of union session talent? Clock is ticking.

Wake me up when the "NEW CENTURY," and the inexperienced engineers who dwell there, have a solution to this.

Assuming one can organize some direct-monitored or "near zero latency" monitor outs (very possible with many interfaces), this is very easily doable with networked "personal monitor" type solutions from Aviom, Furman, Behringer and others, and can provide 16 or even more monitor mixes to musician/talent cans and in-ears, etc.

(Not from the new century, cut my teeth on an old Langevin patchboard console, but I've also kept up with the times and have no aversion to using any tools that can do the job, like these newfangled 'puters.)

[charlieclouser]

Originally Posted by TRJanuary

So how do you "consoles are obsolete" guys produce 6 different ZERO LATENCY headphone mixes for $20,000 worth of union session talent? Clock is ticking.

Wake me up when the "NEW CENTURY," and the inexperienced engineers who dwell there, have a solution to this.

MOTU PCI-424 card with a 24io = $1,100

With this $1100 rig (that I've been using for the last ten years) MOTU's CueMix software gives you an independent stereo mix of all inputs for each stereo pair of outputs, whether or not you're recording from those inputs, and with no aux objects, external audio input tracks, or any other mess inside the DAW...

...and with 14 samples latency. Not 14 msec, 14 SAMPLES.

So.... even on the most basic MOTU PCI rig, after your L+R main outs, that's 11 stereo cue mixes, separate from and external to the DAW software. These cue mixes stay live when the DAW is not booted or is loading a new song. Oh, and you can configure any two inputs as the talkback and listenback mics (with keycommands to toggle talkback and listenback) and with adjustable auto-dimming of the rest of the inputs...



When the clock is ticking, I'll be glad that CueMix lets me adjust or zero multiple faders by shift-dragging or option-clicking - which will let me proportionally trim cue mixes (or snap faders to unity) MUCH faster than rolling your fingers and eyes down the row of green knobs on the console... so... yeah.

Not that I believe consoles are dead - far from it... but setting up elaborate cue mixes that bypass the host's buffers and DAW software engine is not a problem if you have the right audio card.

And, yes, I too started on analog consoles in the 1980s...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by goddfodder

THE FUTURE IS NOW!

The way I work the whole concept of a console is something very alien to me. I do kinda think though that consoles are very much outdated and a thing of the past. No offence to anyone or anything,.. but to me it just seems like a bunch of old men clinging to the world they knew and everything they were told was right,... when in reality a tidal wave of change and of progress has engulfed their little world and is fast becoming everything they see. There's some bloody good daws out there, some bloody good fx plugins. There very good, and getting better all the time. A desks pretty static, its gonna be the same tomorrow as it will be in 15 years time. But plugins, change, they evolve,.. their getting better all the time. I believe their better now than a desk of 20 years ago. I believe in 30 years time NOBODY will use a desk to make music. I believe im part of the next generation,.. and musics all about whats current and whats up and coming. I'm sure the age of the desk was a great great thing,.. but wake up guys,.. ITS A DIFFERENT CENTURY NOW.

hahaha!

I understand why you see it this way - but trust me, get some years under your belt and you'll want BOTH. Like most of us "old men clinging to the past" - I made the jump to DAWs 20 years ago and they STILL haven't delivered what was promised. Try multing through 40 busses on ANY DAW. Then again try doing the automation tricks on a console that PT or Logic does!!

Try replacing the stem maker on an 88R with a DAW - no chance. Try automating EQ sweeps on an SSL - no chance. See where I am with this? A DAW is not a console. A console is not a DAW mixer.

As for plugins sounding better than 20 year old consoles - there are some fab plugins out there - but they don't even touch a fekking Jade let alone a modern 88R !!!. If the ONLY goal is to make RnB or Dubstep records - then no console is already the way. But man - there is SUCH a bigger recording world out there. 30 years? maybe.... maybe....

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by narcoman

...If the ONLY goal is to make RnB or Dubstep records - then no console is already the way. But man - there is SUCH a bigger recording world out there. 30 years? maybe.... maybe....

I'm not sure what you mean by RnB but today's cheap musical cartoons are a decade overdue for going completely out of fashion.

Some kid will be music's next game changer like the Beatles or Harry Potter and I wouldn't bet on it being recorded Les Paul style with virtual instruments.

[spaceacademy]

Originally Posted by Ambience

Obviously this question does NOT have anything to do with Live Sound since in Live Sound you need a console.

But I was in class the other day and we were talking about consoles. And that got me thinking.

1. Good consoles costs half a million dollars
2. You are tremendously limited unless you have these mixers with tons of channels
3. There is no 'automation'. You need like 5 guys to turn knobs accurately and a que to pull it off.
4. You need to learn the signal flow.
5. Need to get high quality cables and outboard effects
6. Spend tons of money on electricity and cooling for a console.

I was wondering why are we still recording through huge consoles on input with tons of headaches and pains.

If i have a pro tools HD system i can have

1. Unlimited tracks (or tracks my computer can handle)
2. Cut down electricity costs and cooling system.
3. Have written out automation that will be accurate every single time.
5. An HD rig costs vary, but you can get an HD Omni and have crazy power with a laptop.
6. You are not limited to a very limited EQ. You can have the best plugs from waves and UAD. While many say plugs are inferior, you must admit they are truly catching up to their counterparts.
7. The signal flow is way easy. You can route auxes etc with less pain.

I am not here to troll, but rather come up with answers. Some may argue hardware sounds better, but I say why would you record on console off the get go when you can record everything in pro Tools dry, and then run it through a board (at another studio for like $60 an hour) to get that sound you want and then even print it to tape?

In My Opinion (In My Opinion), consoles seem pretty pointless today UNLESS you are doing live sound, cause that would be somewhat difficult without a console.

Anyone agree or can some shed some light on this situation? Thanks guys.

A console is a musical instrument in its own right. It has the ability to completely transform a song instantly - using your hands (and ears). But you will never know that until you use one (extensively).

When mixing, composing, your very connected to the music, not a mouse, virtual Ipad console, or control surface.


btw - a good console doesnt cost half a million dollars. Nowehere near that amount.

[spaceacademy]

Originally Posted by goddfodder

THE FUTURE IS NOW!

The way I work the whole concept of a console is something very alien to me. I do kinda think though that consoles are very much outdated and a thing of the past. No offence to anyone or anything,.. but to me it just seems like a bunch of old men clinging to the world they knew and everything they were told was right,... when in reality a tidal wave of change and of progress has engulfed their little world and is fast becoming everything they see. There's some bloody good daws out there, some bloody good fx plugins. There very good, and getting better all the time. A desks pretty static, its gonna be the same tomorrow as it will be in 15 years time. But plugins, change, they evolve,.. their getting better all the time. I believe their better now than a desk of 20 years ago. I believe in 30 years time NOBODY will use a desk to make music. I believe im part of the next generation,.. and musics all about whats current and whats up and coming. I'm sure the age of the desk was a great great thing,.. but wake up guys,.. ITS A DIFFERENT CENTURY NOW.

Please print out your post and frame it. Then in 30 years time read and check the prices of old mens vintage 1980/1990s consoles. As well as that you will see tons of new artists of the day lauding their big bulky consoles. Whilst you being the old guy will be dismissing them in favour of old style digital.

Your post is super duper ignorant and your an ageist runt (i really hate ageism btw). You have absolutely no idea what you can do with a console and I honestly cant be bothered to explain it except to say its a fully fledged musical instrument which on the spur of the moment you can totally change an average track in to something happening really fast. Faster than any controller or mouse. That I guarantee 100%. Im not talking about mic pres, im just talking about hands on faders, eq, aux sends which can be accessed instantly and providing you have a decent console wll feed your senses with vibe which can be the deciding factor when creating.

Do you ever wonder why so many people keep switching their Daws...

[goddfodder]

Its funny,.. I know i mentioned 'dinosaurs', But that was largely a response to all this pulling rank that seems to be going on amongst a lot of the 'older' members joining in with this thread. It seems that anyone who doesn't share their view, or whose into making different music to what they were 30 years ago,.. well there just 'kids' or theyll see things differently with 'a few years under your belt.'

First off,.. Im 34. I don't need talking down to like I skipped school or something.

Second, a lot of your attitudes toward certain types of music is just insulting to the creative minds behind them. Some of your attitudes towards some very big genres of music is just not what id expect from people who make music for a living. Just because you dont get something doesnt mean its not what music listeners out there have been listening and getting into for decades in some cases. Some of you are sooo far behind when you talk about RnB or... im guessing you were talking about some EDM or dub step. I mean how can you fellas seriously expect to do well or play prominent roles in an industry where you appear to have utter distaste for half of what people out there are into. What are you boys waiting for the next george formby to break the music scene? Or for country to make a big come back?

Third of all,.. the vast majority of people out there who do this for a living, are now moving away from the technology of the past. Their moving away from big consoles, and increasingly their using a mouse and a mac/pc, ipad or whatever. Thats a fact! There not all kids. They haven't all got lessons to learn. Some of them are right already, their worth a fortune and if success is anything to go by, their more right than many of you.

I mean i cant remember the last time i was listening to the radio and the DJ apologised on behalf of the producer who could have done better if only he'd had some better equipment. But y'know times are tough right now so we have to make do. Its not like there's 2 types of music out there now,... that made with quality gear and by 'sensible' mature adults and that made by kids n their toys. And if there was.... The world isn't noticing the difference. no one can tell and the music loving public fail to be able to pick out where consoles are used or whatever,.... so i guess (coming back on thread) you gotta ask is there really that much of a difference and is it actually worth it??

[nickelironsteel]

im not touching this discussion with a 10 foot pole.

[bassjam]

You can't track and mix a modern film/game score without a console and a DAW

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Its funny,.. I know i mentioned 'dinosaurs', But that was largely a response to all this pulling rank that seems to be going on amongst a lot of the 'older' members joining in with this thread. It seems that anyone who doesn't share their view, or whose into making different music to what they were 30 years ago,.. well there just 'kids' or theyll see things differently with 'a few years under your belt.'

Bob O and I have to be two of the oldest guys here, and your statement shows that you haven't read our posts. And as you resent being talked down to, I resent being accused unjustly. If you're going to pull a gun Hoss, take the time to aim it correctly.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by charlieclouser

MOTU PCI-424 card with a 24io = $1,100

With this $1100 rig (that I've been using for the last ten years) MOTU's CueMix software gives you an independent stereo mix of all inputs for each stereo pair of outputs, whether or not you're recording from those inputs, and with no aux objects, external audio input tracks, or any other mess inside the DAW...

If I had $5 for every time I told someone that I'd be rich. MOTU PCI cards have been doing that from day one on the PCI-324, and (IIRC) with near zero latency cue mix outputs (and a boatload of recording inputs), on the PCI-424, run 144 I/O or some insane bi-directional I/O number that nobody will ever use, on a single (yes one) PCIe card, with very little if any strain on the host system cpu.

It's - the card itself - an actual hardware digital mixer like PTHD cards are actual digital hardware mixers. Always has been. The only difference is that the HD cards host instruments and of course, on HD with PT the controls for the card are directly integrated into the software UI. MOTU's devices even have audio plugs on the hardware in some cases, for cues, and maybe even to use for mixing.

People still (in 2012) somehow can't really make that logical connection or clear analogy between a "native" ASIO PCI audio card and a PT PCI audio card... as if only AVID can make that kind of tech, a simple digital mixer on a card.

The new Avid card that pairs with PT native (on paper, functionality / capability wise) isn't even in the same league as the 424.

[goddfodder]

@BIll

Ok,....

I have no idea how old you are. I didn't exactly lay anything at your feet here now did I. Im not pulling any guns, im not a cowboy. I gave a couple of quotes as to examples of what I was talking about, non of which were yours. now if you somehow feel my comments were aimed at you specifically then your wrong and i have no idea how or why you feel the need to respond as you have.

I made what I feel was a valid contribution to the discussion and everything I have said is in response to comments or people who have participated in this thread.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

... MOTU PCI cards have been doing that from day one on the PCI-324, and (IIRC) with near zero latency cue mix outputs (and a boatload of recording inputs),....

As has RME, Lynx, Creamware, Mixstream, (both of which have newer names now...) and I suspect several others. (I tried MOTU in the P-1nn days, but they didn't have great PC support back then.) This is why I don't see what all the fuss is about. I grew up with consoles, they were pretty much nothing but multiple volume controls when I started out and now you might need a degree to run some of them... I like them, I love working them in live rooms and I get a huge charge out of mixing a live show. In the studio, I don't care one way or the other... if your room has a console, we'll use the console. If not, we won't. I've lived without one for many years in my studio and in my home writing/recording space. But that is about to change, as I'm converting a d8b to a DAW controller.... not really a console, but....

In any case, all of this flag waving is a little silly. Tools is tools and a smart man uses the right tool for the job, and every job is not like every other job.
Guys proclaiming what the future will be, maybe should go to the track or lotto window and put all that presence to good use.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

In any case, all of this flag waving is a little silly. Tools is tools and a smart man uses the right tool for the job, and every job is not like every other job.
Guys proclaiming what the future will be, maybe should go to the track or lotto window and put all that presence to good use.

Haha. Agreed.

My only point was that people keep saying that you "need" PTHD for zero latency cues for tracking and I suppose I could just let them wallow in that misconception and not say anything, especially since they never actually hear it anyway.

But yes, RME and many others do the same. Not sure what part of that thing some people still don't seem to grasp but, not my problem. It was not about tools, it's about people. Context. It's (would you agree?) sometimes hard to participate in a discussion and hear things that are just ... not even close to being true?

MOTU's card was the example the - other - guy gave, not me. I just supported his factual comment, so perhaps you should have replied to his comment instead of my reply to his comment?

Thanks Bill. I wasn't 'flag waving', just surprised that that particular misconception still has legs after all these years. Yet another myth in a long line of myths, so... I hear you.

[narcoman]

Oops

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Its funny,.. I know i mentioned 'dinosaurs', But that was largely a response to all this pulling rank that seems to be going on amongst a lot of the 'older' members joining in with this thread. It seems that anyone who doesn't share their view, or whose into making different music to what they were 30 years ago,.. well there just 'kids' or theyll see things differently with 'a few years under your belt.'

No. I agreed and disagreed with you. And that wasn't what I said. I said that experience brings A knowledge of tools. There are plenty of EDM, Dubstep, metal, orchestral or what have you producers who understand all elements of tech and when to use it.

Originally Posted by goddfodder

First off,.. Im 34. I don't need talking down to like I skipped school or something.

Nobody is talking down to you but one does reap what one sows. If You trash talk and dismiss people with years of experience and professional relevance you can damn well expect to get spoken to in a manner reflecting that particular input. You want respect, give it.

Your age is of no relevance ( although I'm bemused by classing yourself as the "next gen" at 34). Experience is gained througout life. The only thing I specifically disagreed with was your direct affront to anything that isn't done exactly how you think it is. You have so far come across as " don't agree with me? Then you are a has been".

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Second, a lot of your attitudes toward certain types of music is just insulting to the creative minds beh......

Whoa whoa whoa, let me stop you right there before you completely destroy your horse. Most youth genres ARE made by people of yourage upwards.... Not 20 year olds. Have a look who records and mixes tempeh or giggs records.....

I currently mix score for movies, but I also own one of the biggest synch houses in Europe and have a direct relationship with THE biggest and up and coming names in EDM. Dont make assumptions that older chaps have nothing to do with new music forms. I had this same discussion on another forum with someone running a techno label. Know how funny it was when their soundcloud links turned up in my inbox with requests to " get on board maaaannnnn"?

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Some of you are sooo far behind when you talk about RnB or... im guessing you were talking about some EDM or dub step.

No I mean RnB. Not dance music or dubstep. I was, at that point , specifically referring to people like David Pensado mixing ITB for some of the biggest artists of the last ten years. EDM is a broad term trying to lump a hundred musical forms into one, one of which is Dubstep which is now well over 10 years old. I was particularly endorsing ITB mixing as a form pertinent to those areas of music. However, mixing score ( and trust me, score mixing and recording pays a LOT more than even the biggest name mixers in popular consumer genres) requires a skill set and technology base that is not yet served easily by Logic etc.

Originally Posted by goddfodder

I mean how can you fellas seriously expect to do well or play prominent roles in an industry where you appear to have utter distaste for half of what people out there are into.

I don't have distaste for ANY musical genres, only distaste for individual acts. I already do well, and have done so for quite some time thanks!!! I've got well over 200million units shifted - some ITB, some on consoles. I'm not narrow minded enough to think that any tech is dead or the only way to go. It's why I was the of the first to buy protools in the UK and why I bought a vintage console 5 years ago.

The biggest revelation I ever had was to not assume that the music I loved was all that there was.

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Third of all,.. the vast majority of people out there who do this for a living, are now moving away from the technology of .....Some of them are right already, their worth a fortune and if success is anything to go by, their more right than many of you.

I agree and disagree with you. The vast majority of those earning dotn earn enough to buy a console in the first place. However, Youre seeing it too one sided - a LOT of productions still see a console at some stage. now, I have an ICON system here and a 30+ year old Neve. Also got 4 rooms of protools and Nuendo and ableton supporting the creative endeavours of some of the most exciting up n coming talent in the uk across a number of genres.

Originally Posted by goddfodder

IIts not like there's 2 types of music out there now,... that made with quality gear and by 'sensible' mature adults and that made by kids n their toys. And if there was.... The world isn't noticing the difference.

What??? It's EXACTLY like that!! There are hundred different audiences out there!! Fans of Ben Frost EXPECT him to rent Studio Alvernia and work with an incredible percussion ensemble. Fans of the Berlin phil expect a luscious sound only workable in such venues as those in Vienna. Beatles fans shell out to buy original mono box sets and vinyl. radio head lovers pay their raves for extra sonicphilia on top! The music world is NOT just black eyed fekking peas!!

Originally Posted by goddfodder

no one can tell and the music loving public fail to be able to pick out where consoles are used or whatever,.... so i guess (coming back on thread) you gotta ask is there really that much of a difference and is it actually worth it??

So the whole public likes one sort of music eh? no one listens to Warren Ellis? everybody only buys chart music ..... Crikey.... It's like musical Catholicism!!

Again, you are seeing it as all music being pop music. Step outside of the UK and look around. The world isn't owned by K pop. The world isn't owned by Skrillex. It also ain't owned by Led Zep or the Kronos Quartet. The musical world is made up of myriad styles and genres with very varied audiences and expectations. Metal is ****ing huge in India at the moment, indie rock n pop big in China. rock still works massively across Europe, the biggest festivals are rock n pop and EDM has finally broken in the USA 20 years after the rest of the world.

Your accusations of people being narrow on this thread are both right and wrong. The most experienced and successful DO look to all the tech around and use what is required for the form they are working in. as mentioned above, I'd like to see anybody work on a multi instrument ensemble without a console. Note the distinction between saying THAT and saying that consoles are the only way.

I mix FAR more music ITB than the console, but Hopefully also savvy and experienced enough to know when a console is needed. Know what? So are ALL of the movers and shakers in the biz regardless of age...... I mean, the neve room here is used daily by clients working in all manner of modern genres to rustems through and get saturation for their own particular artistic vision. yes, dubstep too.

I love it when some GSers start with the "dinosaur" comment. Strangely it works in a very ironic way... Those of us accused of being " dinosaurs" are the very people facilitating and providing exposure for the new breed of music creators.


Sorry for the long post..... !!

[Goddard]

Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome

As has RME, Lynx, Creamware, Mixstream, (both of which have newer names now...) and I suspect several others. (I tried MOTU in the P-1nn days, but they didn't have great PC support back then.) This is why I don't see what all the fuss is about. I grew up with consoles, they were pretty much nothing but multiple volume controls when I started out and now you might need a degree to run some of them... I like them, I love working them in live rooms and I get a huge charge out of mixing a live show. In the studio, I don't care one way or the other... if your room has a console, we'll use the console. If not, we won't. I've lived without one for many years in my studio and in my home writing/recording space. But that is about to change, as I'm converting a d8b to a DAW controller.... not really a console, but....

In any case, all of this flag waving is a little silly. Tools is tools and a smart man uses the right tool for the job, and every job is not like every other job.
Guys proclaiming what the future will be, maybe should go to the track or lotto window and put all that presence to good use.

Can't recall ever coming across any analog console PC cards, although there of course a lot of analog desks and consoles with onboard microcomputers or connectivity for PC control from quite early on. With a digital console it was all DSP and FPGA chips and AD-DA and op-amps and cards aplenty, as already mentioned (the old Yammie DSP Factory also comes to mind, basically an O2R on a PC card (and 2 cards could be fitted!), as well as some old Korg multichannel cards with DSP mixers).

I take it that DIY d8b DAW control surface project is now ready for primetime? Hadn't followed it in a while, they were still working on getting the "firmware" working last I heard. Will have to check it out again.

Yep, it all just tools, only the sound matters...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Martin_LPF

I've got a console. I can only make 5 mix at a time for artists BUT they will sound like a record and WILL help artists perform better.........and will end up with a better recorded performance.

Try that with a DAW and you interface.

Heh. Well now I'll take the other side. I have seen and worked plenty of scores and records that had no console. I've produced on location jazz records that many assumed where cut to tape done on nothing more than a Radar system and muchos saturation with guns. ****ing hard though!!!!

Then you have things like Tchads or nicolsons mixes.... Their ITB mixes make my console mixes sound sterile!!!

The dogmatism of " consoles are dead" or "ITB is for deaf people" are just two opposite sides of the same coin. I don't own an 88R or Samplitude. both have their uses!!!

[kieros]

While never owned console, I would use one as a instrument, to enhance the overall music piece.

As a musician, I like to put feeling while playing, and I imagine, if I owned console, I would feel music better with real faders/pots, and get better emotional response to what I'm trying to accomplish.

[spaceacademy]

Originally Posted by goddfodder

Its funny,.. I know i mentioned 'dinosaurs', But that was largely a response to all this pulling rank that seems to be going on amongst a lot of the 'older' members joining in with this thread. It seems that anyone who doesn't share their view, or whose into making different music to what they were 30 years ago,.. well there just 'kids' or theyll see things differently with 'a few years under your belt.'

First off,.. Im 34. I don't need talking down to like I skipped school or something.

Second, a lot of your attitudes toward certain types of music is just insulting to the creative minds behind them. Some of your attitudes towards some very big genres of music is just not what id expect from people who make music for a living. Just because you dont get something doesnt mean its not what music listeners out there have been listening and getting into for decades in some cases. Some of you are sooo far behind when you talk about RnB or... im guessing you were talking about some EDM or dub step. I mean how can you fellas seriously expect to do well or play prominent roles in an industry where you appear to have utter distaste for half of what people out there are into. What are you boys waiting for the next george formby to break the music scene? Or for country to make a big come back?

Third of all,.. the vast majority of people out there who do this for a living, are now moving away from the technology of the past. Their moving away from big consoles, and increasingly their using a mouse and a mac/pc, ipad or whatever. Thats a fact! There not all kids. They haven't all got lessons to learn. Some of them are right already, their worth a fortune and if success is anything to go by, their more right than many of you.

I mean i cant remember the last time i was listening to the radio and the DJ apologised on behalf of the producer who could have done better if only he'd had some better equipment. But y'know times are tough right now so we have to make do. Its not like there's 2 types of music out there now,... that made with quality gear and by 'sensible' mature adults and that made by kids n their toys. And if there was.... The world isn't noticing the difference. no one can tell and the music loving public fail to be able to pick out where consoles are used or whatever,.... so i guess (coming back on thread) you gotta ask is there really that much of a difference and is it actually worth it??

Your right the vast majority are not using consoles but thats a lot more to do with younger artists not having the opportunity to try consoles - not because their moving away from them. For older artists who were happy to ditch their mixers I can only say they were using them as a means to mix different signals and probably never really connected symbiotically with them in the way I have described so mixing in a Daw will be fine for them - even better probably. Thats cool of course.

I have come across interviews from late 20's and early 30's electronic artists and it comes as no surprise I see them using a pretty decent mixer and their talking about the symbiotic relationship they have with them. One artist I hadnt even heard of spent 70k on refitting a Neve console. He obviously thought it was worth it. I dont believe anyone need go that far to experience the vibe of working with a console though. Im in my late 30's btw.

On a personal note I have mixed plenty of records in the box as well as a console. I wont claim a mixer will result in a better sound neither will I say its worse. In fact some stuff ive done was better suited to being mixed in the box but on the other hand some stuff I felt would have been better suited to the console. Its all about vibe you see. . My current setup is a hybrid. I can mix in the box or on the mixer. However, the truth is I lack outboard to really compete with my in the box mixes. I need (good) compressors, FX and possibly a couple of decent EQ boxes all of which are rather expensive - but Im getting there. Point Is I want the option of being able to do both and when Im creating a track I will know whether its a job for the console or the Daws mixer.

The only thing I can say to you is that you have strong preconceived ideas of what a console is for and the people who use them. To be blunt you dont know because you haven't used one in the sense Im talking about. Perhaps you should try, you might be surprised. Im not trying to be rude to you.

[Bob Olhsson]

A console allows one to work faster and more intuitively. Where this really makes a difference is tracking. Tracking sessions are all about work rhythm. Consoles make all the difference in the world in setting the pace of a session and the pace has a large impact on the quality of the performance.

I don't know anybody who has actually used a console for tracking who doesn't consider any DAW a major step backwards. It IS worlds cheaper but that's about it.

The learning curve on consoles in general is around six months and learning a different one takes less than a week if your console chops are up. By contrast, I'm STILL learning Pro Tools after over 20 years!

[Goddard]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A console allows one to work faster and more intuitively. Where this really makes a difference is tracking. Tracking sessions are all about work rhythm. Consoles make all the difference in the world in setting the pace of a session and the pace has a large impact on the quality of the performance.!

But perhaps your view of consoles being faster is based on them better suiting your own personal working style/workflow preferences and experiential intuitivities (hah, can't believe I just typed that - wtf does that mean?). IOW, because working a console just "feels" more natural.

But otoh, perhaps for folks who've only ever known DAWs (and are comfortable with looking at monitor screens while manipulating control surfaces) and folks who have gained facility with DAWs, a DAW feels just as natural as a console does to you and the workflow just as fast and facile.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

I don't know anybody who has actually used a console for tracking who doesn't consider any DAW a major step backwards. It IS worlds cheaper but that's about it.

Well, maybe if this thread persists, you'll e-meet some.

A DAW is not necessarily all that much cheaper. Yes, there are some inespensive DAWs, which is great and affords an opportunity without great outlay, just as there are some inexpensive basic mixers that can do the job on a budget. But one can also incur substantial outlay for DAWs. If the point you were trying to make is that lower cost makes for wider adoption, then yes, agreed. But if you were asserting higher cost = better results, then no, that's just ignorance or bias.

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

The learning curve on consoles in general is around six months and learning a different one takes less than a week if your console chops are up. By contrast, I'm STILL learning Pro Tools after over 20 years!

Ever heard the term "Pro Fools"? Point being, wider adoption does not necessarily equate with "better" and might just as well be down to marketing and being the DAW platform used by others with whom one deals. MS Word vs Wordperfect for example.

Frankly, my feeling has long been that even Digi are still learning PT, and have been ever since it first emerged. Which is rather disappointing considering that they had complete and exclusive hardware and software platform control of it for so long before going native (and which may explain why they are now struggling to keep up in many respects since going native).

Oh, and just in case you hadn't noticed, the big board console guys do DAWs too, e.g.

Solid State Logic | Music

Solid State Logic | Music

[string6theory]

I'm just very grateful that pretty much every single one of the artist's/band's albums I own and (really) love involved some form of console/mixer in it's creation.

If there's some totally ITB creation out there by the engineers/producers of my loved artists/bands, I must have missed it. But, I doubt it


For me personally, there's a threshold of sonic excellence, historically established in the broad genres of blues, funk, r&b, rock, reggae & (my preferred creators of) hip-hop, etc., that has not been surpassed by the removal of tracking or mixing consoles, and replacement with all ITB "everything".

To me, moving "forward" means more than utilizing the latest tech for time, convenience or cost savings. Although, the perceived personal "empowerment" and "control" the tech expounds or claims can be seductive. Like a siren's call, the newest tech constantly beckons.


I happily embrace, develop and use my evolving hybrid setup, DAW/PT/Plugs/outboard/mixers, etc., (no LFAC), and know that I, and those I play/work with, are personally moving forward on many levels. But, it's the sonic outcome, in a context that is referenced against the sonic (and other) outcomes of my loved artist's/band's music and their respective albums/creations, that means the most to me.


When someone comes out with an all ITB-tracked/mixed album (in those genres, but especially rock) that blows my mind sonically and otherwise, like;

60's/70's/80's/90's/00's era Muddy, Hooker, King (all of them), Ike & Tina, Beatles, Stones, James Brown, Hendrix, Who, Stax, Motown, Picket, Sam & Dave, Beck, Zeppelin, Floyd, Aerosmith, Clapton, Zappa, Bowie, Iggy, Lizzy, Santana, Reed, VU, Pistols, ZZ Top, Talking Heads, Cooder, Skynyrd, Meters, Neil Young, AC/DC, SRV, Queen, AIC, Ferry, Nirvana, Marley, Upsetters, Toots, Prince, Dre, Snoop, Roots, VH, Tool, RATM, RHCP, White Stripes, Radiohead, etc., etc., etc...

Please let me know


I and do really appreciate and like a lot of the newer artists/bands//productions available, that revolve more around an ITB production aesthetic, in the expanding "genres", that are more sample-based, or pop/electronic oriented, as well as classical (which is a deeper subject).


But, Rock&Roll... all ITB/everything? Absolutely not...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Goddard

But perhaps your view of consoles being faster is based on them better suiting your own personal working style/workflow preferences and experiential intuitivities (hah, can't believe I just typed that - wtf does that mean?). IOW, because working a console just "feels" more natural.

But otoh, perhaps for folks who've only ever known DAWs (and are comfortable with looking at monitor screens while manipulating control surfaces) and folks who have gained facility with DAWs, a DAW feels just as natural as a console does to you and the workflow just as fast and facile.



Well, maybe if this thread persists, you'll e-meet some.

A DAW is not necessarily all that much cheaper. Yes, there are some inespensive DAWs, which is great and affords an opportunity without great outlay, just as there are some inexpensive basic mixers that can do the job on a budget. But one can also incur substantial outlay for DAWs. If the point you were trying to make is that lower cost makes for wider adoption, then yes, agreed. But if you were asserting higher cost = better results, then no, that's just ignorance or bias.



Ever heard the term "Pro Fools"? Point being, wider adoption does not necessarily equate with "better" and might just as well be down to marketing and being the DAW platform used by others with whom one deals. MS Word vs Wordperfect for example.

Frankly, my feeling has long been that even Digi are still learning PT, and have been ever since it first emerged. Which is rather disappointing considering that they had complete and exclusive hardware and software platform control of it for so long before going native (and which may explain why they are now struggling to keep up in many respects since going native).

Oh, and just in case you hadn't noticed, the big board console guys do DAWs too, e.g.

Solid State Logic | Music

Solid State Logic | Music

Firstly - do you even know who Bob IS? If you did, maybe the condescension might be gone...it certainly should be.

I think the problem with this debate is a lack of experience on one side. The reason the guys who've only ever known DAWs find it easier is purely because of that - they don't know the other side. The guys who've done both have a much better perspective. Yes, there's bias the other way - but there's some of us who are very much the "DAW generation" who've worked on consoles as well, and definitely prefer them for a multitude of tasks! it's perfectly possible to track a full band with outboard preamps, straight to DAW, cue mixes from the DAW, etc etc...but it's NOT as quick as when you've got a quality desk set up in front of you.

you're incredibly unlikely to find anyone substantially quicker at PT than me (although I'm with Bob - I still find new features in it! If you don't you should probably be writing tuition books) and if I find it quicker on a console, I can't see why most won't.

It also makes for a more inclusive session - band members can hit solos and so on in confidence they're not going to "break" anything, and things like that.

As I said, to anyone who's calling people "dinosaurs" and so on - if this is your viewpoint and you've experienced the other side, fine. If you're speaking from a position of no experience, perhaps you'd better hold your tongue (and insults) until your experience catches up with your mouth.

[carlheinz]

No console?If you know working that way works for you best, thats all that matters.It's personal preference.

It comes down to how you want to work and when do you want to find out if what you have sounds finished or not.Last time I checked I could not plug my Shure SM-57 directly into a D.A.W.Not without a preamp and the preamps that are on most D.A.W. interfaces are not on level of quality that one would find in a classic console or channel strip ala neve/api/daking/chandler/wunder/gtq2/great river..etc

In my experience,IF there was a built in preamp in the PT interface it usually it sounded clean but did not sound pleasing to my ear and I would need to take yet more time to compensate.Most D.A.W.s with pre's simply sound clinical and lack headroom punch or clarity.Mabie generation D.A.W.only doesn'r mind because it's all about fixing it down the road perhaps?I come from the school of getting a sound up front and commiting to that sound early on because it affects the perception of everything else that is heard around it.A proper console is the best way to facilitate all routing and processing and sound aquisition before it gets recorded.A console makes life easier to make decisions that I do not need to postpone.Here is the sound I want...boom...record it.Done.Less fuss.

A microphone to a mic preamp is like a Fender Strat into a Marshall or Gibson Les Paul into a Fender twin amp.The sound and feel will affect the artistic perception of what is heard and how the artist might perform.

Aside from the sound,A proper console has bussing that allows me to combine sources and process those sources in the analog domain before hitting the converter on the D.A.W. interface.

I think you would greatly benifit to spend time in a studio that makes use of a well designed and maintained class a discreet mixing desk with transformers on every input channel and buss to fully understand what and why the console matters.Not that you coudn't do without,but what you can do and how quick you can do with it.

But hey...then again...why ask why when most people only want this...


http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_recordin_la_vida/