PT?HD Native Thunderbolt w/Omni -OR- RME UCX

[SabreChris]

Originally Posted by Verve111

I've been mulling this over for about a week. I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these systems.

On one hand - PT/HD Native TB has great latency figures and integration with pro tools. The Omni interface has seemingly good conversion. I would also have to purchase a Format converter to get my 4 channels of external AD into PT via ADAT. There is a max of 8 in through the OMNI.

On the other hand - The UCX is dramatically cheaper. I can get all 4 of my external AD into PT without needing another box. It supports 18 in and 18 out all at once. No idea about the AD quality compared to the Omni. Latency seems to be great on this unit as well.

Thoughts?

The HD Omni has slightly better printed specs for s/n, but that does not always tell the whole story. I think you should search for listening tests on the HD omni and let your ears decide.

I recently chose a UFX over the apollo based on sound bite comparisons and feature set. At this level I think it is about subtle qualities, not necessarily specs. One thing I love about the UFX is the headphone amps sound amazing and have zero noise. I am happy with it, but always willing to entertain there are better things out there.

Another thing to consider is that with the UFX you dont NEED TB, some of the other interfaces usb/fw performance suggests that you might.

[passmore]

Originally Posted by Verve111

I The UCX is dramatically cheaper.

The Avid box - has more I/O and more options for A/D/D/A
Much lower latency than the UCX and way better convertors.
I bought 2 X Natives and paid $2600.00 ( $1300 each)
I already have the software and convertors so Avid made sense for me.

[SabreChris]

Originally Posted by passmore

The Avid box - has more I/O and more options for A/D/D/A
Much lower latency than the UCX and way better convertors.

:twilight zone:

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by passmore

The Avid box - has more I/O and more options for A/D/D/A
Much lower latency than the UCX and way better convertors.
I bought 2 X Natives and paid $2600.00 ( $1300 each)
I already have the software and convertors so Avid made sense for me.

I thought the Omni was limited to 8 in and 8 out simultaneous. UCX is 18 in 18 out simultaneous.

[Verve111]

I double checked and have seen differing reports on the Omni I/O. One source said 4 analog, 2 digital and 8 ADAT.

I don't buy it.

I think it's 8 total no matter what format as every PT I/O dialog I've seen for the Omni only shows 8 ins.

Latency with the UCX is reported at 3.8 ms roundtrip and HD native (PCIe) at 1.7. I would not consider that much lower.

Maybe If I'm dealing with stemming 8 stereo pairs out it makes sense but I do not see the cost/benefit of an HD Native rig over a good FW USB interface like an RME other than conversion.

Please enlighten me.

[T_R_S]

I have TB native box - you can use it with any 192/96 Analog or Digital (Legacy Blue I/O) /Lynx Aurora ( With the latest HD card firmware) and with any new Avid I/O.
The omni has 8 in and 10 out any Analog/Digital (S/pdif/AES/ADAT) combination in pairs.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Verve111

I double checked and have seen differing reports on the Omni I/O. One source said 4 analog, 2 digital and 8 ADAT.

I don't buy it.

I think it's 8 total no matter what format as every PT I/O dialog I've seen for the Omni only shows 8 ins.

Latency with the UCX is reported at 3.8 ms roundtrip and HD native (PCIe) at 1.7. I would not consider that much lower.

Maybe If I'm dealing with stemming 8 stereo pairs out it makes sense but I do not see the cost/benefit of an HD Native rig over a good FW USB interface like an RME other than conversion.

Please enlighten me.

Omni is 8 total yes - I have one in front of me right now.

You can however use the 4 inbuilt inputs, and an extra 4 over ADAT - they're individually selectable in pairs.

I'm finding the HD native (PCIe) setup a good deal more stable than they lynx w/FW, although that is notably a bad driver.

The advantages are freeing up your USB/FW bus for other things, expandability (USB interfaces are pretty much limited to what they support, HD Native is 64io max), and better PT integration - you've got the HD software with HD native of course. This might or might not matter to you.

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Omni is 8 total yes - I have one in front of me right now.

You can however use the 4 inbuilt inputs, and an extra 4 over ADAT - they're individually selectable in pairs.

I'm finding the HD native (PCIe) setup a good deal more stable than they lynx w/FW, although that is notably a bad driver.

The advantages are freeing up your USB/FW bus for other things, expandability (USB interfaces are pretty much limited to what they support, HD Native is 64io max), and better PT integration - you've got the HD software with HD native of course. This might or might not matter to you.

What do you mean by 64 i/o total? The card supports 64io? Not track count I hope.

In theory one could link two omnis together and get 4 AES, 8 Analog, ins right? Not saying this is at all cost effective but the Digilink protocol supports this?

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Verve111

What do you mean by 64 i/o total? The card supports 64io? Not track count I hope.

In theory one could link two omnis together and get 4 AES, 8 Analog, ins right? Not saying this is at all cost effective but the Digilink protocol supports this?

You can only use one OMNI per system. You can however, add other HD-compatible interfaces to the OMNI to get you more IO.

No, track count and IO are completely different things - sorry, I thought you'd understand that. Track count within the software - I have no idea what HD supports at this point, but it's higher than 64 tracks. I think PT10 (non-HD) might be around that count - that's for audio tracks only though (mono or stereo). Instruments/auxes etc are extra. Check the specs on Avid.com to be sure. Another advantage of going the HD Native route.

Anyway, the HD Native Card has 2 digilink connectors, which means it can support 2 x 16io interfaces on each one, or 64io in total. With the RME, you can't easily expand it past the 18io it already supports over USB/FW. So if you see yourself expanding in the future, you've got a ceiling there. For most users - it won't be an issue.

[nst7]

Total active track count with HD Native at 44k is 256 mono tracks, which is the same as you get with 1 HDX card, or regular PT10 with the Complete Toolkit (regular PT10 without the Toolkit is 96 tracks).

As was mentioned, this total track count is separate from how much physical I/O you can have with HD Native, which, as mentioned, is 64 in, 64 out. This applies to either version, either the PCIe card or the Thunderbolt version.


As for the conversion quality of the Omni, most likely you will find it significantly better than the RME stuff, since in most shootouts and reviews of the HD interfaces, people are finding them comparable to Prisms, Lavry's, and the Apogee Symphony I/O.

And to clarify, the Omni is 8 in, 8 out, any combination of analog or digital. So, for example, you could have 4 channels of analog in, 2 channels of Spidf in, and 2 channels of Adat in. Or 2 channels analog, 6 channels Adat. You get the idea.

There is also a hardwired Cue output to the headphone jack, which shows up as Output 9-10 in Protools. You may find creative ways to jerry rig that output using a Y-adapter.


One thing that may change this unit for the better, is that there is a rumor from a reliable source that there may be a firmware update for the Omni that will allow it to use all it's I/O at the same time, similar to the UFX, 002, 003, etc. This was mentioned by Russ Hughes, who runs the ProTools Expert website.

But until that happens, I would base your decision on what it does currently.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by nst7

Total active track count with HD Native at 44k is 256 mono tracks, which is the same as you get with 1 HDX card, or regular PT10 with the Complete Toolkit (regular PT10 without the Toolkit is 96 tracks).

As was mentioned, this total track count is separate from how much physical I/O you can have with HD Native, which, as mentioned, is 64 in, 64 out. This applies to either version, either the PCIe card or the Thunderbolt version.


As for the conversion quality of the Omni, most likely you will find it significantly better than the RME stuff, since in most shootouts and reviews of the HD interfaces, people are finding them comparable to Prisms, Lavry's, and the Apogee Symphony I/O.

And to clarify, the Omni is 8 in, 8 out, any combination of analog or digital. So, for example, you could have 4 channels of analog in, 2 channels of Spidf in, and 2 channels of Adat in. Or 2 channels analog, 6 channels Adat. You get the idea.

There is also a hardwired Cue output to the headphone jack, which shows up as Output 9-10 in Protools. You may find creative ways to jerry rig that output using a Y-adapter.


One thing that may change this unit for the better, is that there is a rumor from a reliable source that there may be a firmware update for the Omni that will allow it to use all it's I/O at the same time, similar to the UFX, 002, 003, etc. This was mentioned by Russ Hughes, who runs the ProTools Expert website.

But until that happens, I would base your decision on what it does currently.

Cheers for all that! particularly interested in that firmware update if it ever happens...I'm currently using mine with stereo monitoring, plus hardware inserts on 4 channels (which is possible using the db25 analogue outputs and the 4 analogue line ins, though it takes a weird combination of looms and XLR-TRS leads to achieve.

Metering on the front is always going to be 8io though, which might limit it for some. Don't know how they'd work round it with a firmware update. And let's hope any firmware update is a bit easier to achieve than the last one - for that I had to download a hooky copy of 10.6.7, install and do the update, then ditch so I could use it under 10.6.8!

[nst7]

Yeah, I had to switch PCIe slots to do my firmware update. I decided to leave it in that slot because it seems to be working fine.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by nst7

Yeah, I had to switch PCIe slots to do my firmware update. I decided to leave it in that slot because it seems to be working fine.

Tried that - didn't work for me. Once on 10.6.7, worked fine!

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

You can only use one OMNI per system. You can however, add other HD-compatible interfaces to the OMNI to get you more IO.

No, track count and IO are completely different things - sorry, I thought you'd understand that. Track count within the software - I have no idea what HD supports at this point, but it's higher than 64 tracks. I think PT10 (non-HD) might be around that count - that's for audio tracks only though (mono or stereo). Instruments/auxes etc are extra. Check the specs on Avid.com to be sure. Another advantage of going the HD Native route.

Anyway, the HD Native Card has 2 digilink connectors, which means it can support 2 x 16io interfaces on each one, or 64io in total. With the RME, you can't easily expand it past the 18io it already supports over USB/FW. So if you see yourself expanding in the future, you've got a ceiling there. For most users - it won't be an issue.

Got it. I've worked on a couple HD systems before, but never enough to become intimately acquainted with the process of chaining IO boxes. So the Native card will support 64io through the addition of interface boxes.

Does using non avid interfaces affect this number in any way? Does chaining interfaces have an affect on latency for the system?

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by nst7

One thing that may change this unit for the better, is that there is a rumor from a reliable source that there may be a firmware update for the Omni that will allow it to use all it's I/O at the same time, similar to the UFX, 002, 003, etc. This was mentioned by Russ Hughes, who runs the ProTools Expert website.

But until that happens, I would base your decision on what it does currently.

This is exactly where my hesitations lie with the unit. In order to take full advantage of the omni one needs some sort of adat device or a format converter, which is something I really dont want to have to buy.

This is great news, however, if indeed it goes through. This would fully sway me. I am not interested in another FW or USB interface. I want the harware/software integration of IO that Native provides, but I don't want to spend an extra $1000 to get my already purchased external conversion into pro tools.

I hope this is more than a rumor!

[Verve111]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

And let's hope any firmware update is a bit easier to achieve than the last one - for that I had to download a hooky copy of 10.6.7, install and do the update, then ditch so I could use it under 10.6.8!

Good greif. Sounds like a royal pain in the neck.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Verve111

Got it. I've worked on a couple HD systems before, but never enough to become intimately acquainted with the process of chaining IO boxes. So the Native card will support 64io through the addition of interface boxes.

Does using non avid interfaces affect this number in any way? Does chaining interfaces have an affect on latency for the system?

Well, it kind of depends. If you have an OMNI, that's only 8io instead of 16 in one interface, so that knocks 8 off the total I think (all the avid boxes are multiples of 16, even the 8x8x8 'cos it's got the 8 digital paths as well).

I THINK (and someone who's got massive IO setups might need to correct me here) that you always have to take into account the 16 paths of each interface, even if you've got digital IO involved. So with HD Native, you can support 4 16x16x16s, or 4 8x8x8s, but not 8 8x8x8s, because they still have 16io paths (just only 8 converters). If that makes sense!

Now - the Lynx 16s have 32io each in advanced routing mode - so to connect 64 analogue io of these, you'd either need to put them into standard mode (so they're only 16io and forgo the digital io) and have an HD card in each, or connect 2 digitally via AES (and only have 2 HD cards for them), and watch your clocking!

The Prism ADAs generally do 8io each - I'm not sure how they're seen by PT, if one are seen as one 192, then you'd be able to have the ful 64io - if each is seen as one 192, then you'd only get 32io I guess. I don't know - I'd say having 32io of Prism ADA and HD Native is unlikely to happen I guess!

Apogee - there's been enough reports that I wouldn't recommend AD/DA16Xs with HD Native, but the Symphony should be fine. AD/DA 16xs are "seen" as a full 192 (you just ignore the analogue/digital path settings) together, not sure how the Rosettas work. You can easily run 32i/48o on an HD TDM rig with no issues, so assuming there's no other issues, I can't see why you couldn't run 64io with Apogees on HD Native. Symphony - no idea how this is "seen" by PT - with the Symphony PCIe card, you can have at least 16i/32o on each interface, so I'm guessing you should get at least 16io via the Digilink. Maybe even 32o.

As for latency - it shouldn't affect system latency, although each 3rd party converter will have it's own latency that may or may not be the same as pro tools expects to "see" (the lynxs famously have the same latency as a 192).

That's all a bit convoluted, and I'd have to double check how the system "sees" some of the 3rd party interfaces, so if anyone knows better feel free to correct me!

Originally Posted by Verve111

Good greif. Sounds like a royal pain in the neck.

It was; but only as a one-off, and because I'd got an HD Native that had never been updated to PT9. Had that been done at the time, it was prior to 10.6.7 I think, and wouldn't have been an issue.

Once I got that sorted - it's been plain sailing. I'm loving the OMNI!