HOLLYWOOD ORCHESTRAL WOODWINDS STATEMENT FROM N and T

[Carles]

Originally Posted by Hint

EW are notorious for that kind of behaviour. It's nothing new.

But let's not forget that Nick Phoenix was a willing participant in that machine not so long ago and has history of being directly involved in equally peculiar behaviour right here on Gearslutz. You should perhaps bear that in mind before blindly following him to whichever new venture he sets up.

I agree.
First, let me explain that I have been out of the game for many years and re-started composing music about a year ago and had no much time for forums (my first post here btw) so I know just nothing about the "politic" side of this. (Nick will knows if any of my comments refer to him or not, as well as if his behavior is conducted or not somehow by EW).
All this is just new to me so I just wanted to express my opinion about something that I consider out of my practical and ethic criteria, no matter from were it comes.

If I'll face again any hypothetical new or existing company with same behavior most likely I'll react the same way. It's after all, my money (as user that's my power and my freedom) and I decide were to spend it according several factors.

I really love HS and HB and I know that these two guys did much on that, so I do believe they can do it again, hopefully on a better platform, which not necessarily mean blindly following them, sorry if I gave that impression. Seen what I seen, I will get any future product from any company provided that the quality will be obvious, demonstrated with proper demos and technical videos.
Fortunately I've canceled my order soon enough this time but yeah, learnt the lesson.

Still thinking that they can do something great, it's very simple actually because they already demonstrated to be capable to do it.
One of the game rules in my opinion is to just listen and satisfy the people who will pay for it, otherwise there is no deal (I thought it should be obvious for anyone trying to sell a product, or just common sense, though apparently I was wrong).

Cheers,
Carles

[EastWest Lurker]

Originally Posted by Phil777

Maybe you're working for EW :p

I noted myself they delete everything that lead to understand what was the real job on NP and TB on HOW. Not lying directly doesn't mean not lying.

If you don't believe me try by yourself to make a thread about NP and TB real involvment on HOW, you'll be fixed.

It is not lying to not tell everything you know.

Nick has written what he felt he needed to publicly say. EW will be making no official public comment nor will they allow speculation about it on their forum, as that will help no one.

[GearNerd]

EW´s forum is like 1984.

[itsyourself]

Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker

It is not lying to not tell everything you know.

Nick has written what he felt he needed to publicly say. EW will be making no official public comment nor will they allow speculation about it on their forum, as that will help no one.

Actually it would help many people if they did make some public comment and clarified what they are doing and where they are going. Otherwise they look like they have something to hide. They don't look good in this, but if that's how they want it, we will draw our own conclusions. You could argue that being economical with the truth is 'not lying' but it's a lawyer's argument.

[EastWest Lurker]

Originally Posted by itsyourself

Actually it would help many people if they did make some public comment and clarified what they are doing and where they are going. Otherwise they look like they have something to hide. They don't look good in this, but if that's how they want it, we will draw our own conclusions.

If EW does that, all it will lead to is a nasty "he said, he said" and it is possible, although I do not know this for a fact, that there are legal implications.

I don't know what you mean by "what they are doing and where they are going". Clearly, as Nick stated, he and TJ are no longer associated with EW and EW will continue to produce new libraries and update their existing libraries with other people. User and potential users will do what they have always done: listen to demos, read reviews, get personal recommendation from other users, and make their decisions as to which or which not to buy.

It's not that complicated

[peter5992]

Originally Posted by Nicholas Phoenix

A statement about Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds:

If Hollywood Orchestral Woodwinds does not sound in line with past products
of the series it is because, unlike with prior products, we were only
involved in the production process up until the critical final editing and
programming phase, at which point EW's team took over completely with no
further input from us. We have always been, and still are willing to finish
the Woodwinds for EW in accordance with our original concept, ideas and
design, and in line with the rest of the products in the Hollywood series.
However, despite our continued willingness, EW has refused to allow us to do
so.

All The Best, Nick and Thomas

Ai ai ai - that is not such good news.

And here I am, putting in my order today.

Any chance of you fellas kissing and making up with Doug / Eastwest?

If not, thank you for all your contributions made to the EW products. I'm sure the Woodwinds are going to be fine but it just sucks to see a good team break up.

First there's the Sibelius thing with Avid, now this .... Bleh.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by peter5992

First there's the Sibelius thing with Avid, now this .... Bleh.

... and Redmatica and URS...

[Ghosted]

Don't worry Nick will survive and I look forward to his new releases, no matter what company he works for. Perhaps he should start his own company.

[Hint]

Originally Posted by Carles

One of the game rules in my opinion is to just listen and satisfy the people who will pay for it, otherwise there is no deal (I thought it should be obvious for anyone trying to sell a product, or just common sense, though apparently I was wrong).

Cheers,
Carles

Makes sense to me too, but I think we agree sometimes companies get this wrong.
===

Anyway... it looks like this recent business is very messy indeed.

Courthouse News Service Entertainment Law

[mirrorboy]

Wow!!

I was totally shocked reading Nick's post. Then again, it was hardly shocking.

In the 12+ years I've been using EWQL / EW PLAY products, I've had nothing but horrendous customer service.

I once had a case that took them THREE MONTHS to respond to....and when the response came in it was a computer-generated FAQ sorta response. Haha

Jay (EW Lurker) has been a great resource and I appreciate his efforts tremendously.

That said I didn't meet (virtually) Jay till about a year and a half ago so I had already had more than enough bad experiences.

And throughout those experiences I remember thinking to myself....""Karma....man, you CANNOT treat people this way and expect nothing to happen.""

It's been two years since I've purchased an EW product and never will again (I told myself 2 yrs ago I'm never buying another EW product).

--

I am surprised there was never an NDA in place, though.


Scott

[mirrorboy]

So EW and Nick are suing each other in both State & Federal Court.

From the link above and again here:

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/20/1650.htm

(CN) - A composer used a Los Angeles virtual music studio's electronic instruments to make music and sell it to movie studios and music aggregators in violation of copyright, the studio claims in court.

East West Sounds filed sued its former salesman, Nicholas Phoenix, and his unnamed collaborators in federal court in Los Angeles.

East West records music and converts it digitally to produce virtual music software. It says it struck a deal with Phoenix to purchase his Quantum Leap sound inventory in 2004.

That relationship soured, as the parties are suing each other in state court in addition to East West's federal claim.

According to the federal lawsuit, Phoenix and his corporation, Deepwell Inc., accused East West of breaching the parties' contract by deducting costs from gross royalties, while East West is countersuing for violations of its intellectual property rights.

East West claims in federal court that Phoenix violated its copyright on virtual pianos, symphonic orchestra, symphonic choir and "stormdrum music."

Phoenix "incorporated such copyrighted works in such musical compositions and then sold and/or licensed the musical compositions containing some or all of East West Sounds' copyrighted works to third parties, including movie studios and music aggregators," according to the complaint.

Some of the songs referenced in the lawsuit include "1000 Ships of the Underworld," "Infinite Legends," "Breach of Ran Gor" and "After the Fall."

East West wants an injunction against the Phoenix's use of its copyrighted work and the return of any electronic files containing its intellectual property, in addition to damages of up to $150,000 per infringement.

William White, G. Cresswell Templeton III and Patrick Michela of the Los Angeles law firm Hill, Farrer & Burrill is representing East West.

[mirrorboy]

Does anyone know what Nick was specifically doing that allegedly violated EW's Intelectiali Property rights?

It says in the above article he used them and sold them (compositions, no?)

Isn't this what everyone does??

--

I'm not sure I understand how Nick used the products in such a fashion that caused a suit.

In other words, what did he do differently that caused such a suit?


Thx.


Scott

EDIT: Perhaps the songs EW are referring to are the demos that Nick later sold??

If so, wouldn't this be an issue b/w Nick's publisher and EW??

[Hint]

Originally Posted by mirrorboy

Does anyone know what Nick was specifically doing that allegedly violated EW's Intelectiali Property rights?

It says in the above article he used them and sold them (compositions, no?)

Isn't this what everyone does??

--

I'm not sure I understand how Nick used the products in such a fashion that caused a suit.

In other words, what did he do differently that caused such a suit?

My best guess would be that his copies of the software weren't retail versions, so EW are using a "non-commercial" licensing loophole. I don't know though - I only skimmed the court documents.

Surely one of the selling points of their software is that it is made and used by people who do commercial work like this?

===

My theoretical soap opera style plotline:

1. NP and EW fall out for reasons unknown. Maybe they got matching Lambourghinis by mistake and neither party backed down by agreeing to a respray.

2. NP claims against EW for breach of contract over cost disputes.

3. EW hit back by suing for copyright infringement.

4. NP heads to a few forums to a) announce his departure from EW and b) attempt to sabotage the release of Hollywood Woodwinds by suggesting that it won't be as good as the products he was more involved in.

5. Filter Fish exits stage left, (pursued by a bear)

[mirrorboy]

Wow...if that is truly the case that's absurd.

You'd think he'd be given a free copy for C**** sake!!!

If that is truly the entire reasoning behind it, they won't stand a chance in Federal Court.

It will come off as "petty" esp being that EW are the one's counter-suing, I believe. Not to mention Doug probably knew all along what Nick was doing...and never had a problem with it till Nick sued.

Isn't this something they promoted...their sounds being used in these big movies (specifically Nick's work)??

Then again....who knows....I could be way off!! Haha

--

And from what I've read, Nick is suing EW for deducting expenses on gross royalties before paying out royalties. Again, this should be a black and white issue b/w EW and Nick's publisher.

--

Anyways, here's a 43 page court document on the case.

Haven't read it yet but here's a link to the PDF:

http://www.entlawdigest.com/2012/07/...20Salesman.pdf


Scott

[EastWest Lurker]

Welcome to the GS version of the Jerry Springer Show

[mirrorboy]

Originally Posted by EastWest Lurker

Welcome to the GS version of the Jerry Springer Show

Lol

[arrowood101]

Originally Posted by Hint

My theoretical soap opera style plotline:

1. NP and EW fall out for reasons unknown. Maybe they got matching Lambourghinis by mistake and neither party backed down by agreeing to a respray.

2. NP claims against EW for breach of contract over cost disputes.

3. EW hit back by suing for copyright infringement.

4. NP heads to a few forums to a) announce his departure from EW and b) attempt to sabotage the release of Hollywood Woodwinds by suggesting that it won't be as good as the products he was involved in.

5. Filter Fish exits stage left, (pursued by a bear)

Ha this made me laugh. Sad part is it probably isn't far from the truth.

[Ghosted]

Wow...if that is truly the case that's absurd.

You'd think he'd be given a free copy for C**** sake!!!

Totally. If that's what this as all about (and it's probably not), then that really is a petty lawsuit.

[donethur]

everything is about money at the end, no friendship, no love to the music, no art, no passion, only money. That sucks.

[zvenx]

Actually to my non-legal eyes and mind, it does read like Nick was using NFR copies or products he produced or at least copies he didn't purchase to make trailers etc and is not being sued for using those copies. Not sure if it made Gearslutz, but a few weeks ago, there was a big hoopla over in vi-control. Apparently EW had changed its policy and NFR copies that they would for instance give ppl who did audio demos for their products were not prohibited from ever using these NFR copies for any commercial. This seem to rub Nick the wrong way, as it should imho, and he stated so....I don't know if this was when the current hoopla then ensued or did it exist before this outcry at the new policy.

rsp

[Ghosted]

Originally Posted by donethur

everything is about money at the end, no friendship, no love to the music, no art, no passion, only money. That sucks.

Yeah, this reminds me of the feeling you get when your favorite band breaks up.

[sselby]

VSL woodwinds vs EW Hollywood Orchestral woodwinds vs Orchestral Tools Berlin Woodwinds. I have to make my mind up in 24 hours for least minute project. Your thoughts?

[robotpriest]

I hope this means we will see Kontakt products from Nick Phoenix in the future. If this means his last library on PLAY then it will have worked out for the best for the users.

[robotpriest]

Originally Posted by sselby

VSL woodwinds vs EW Hollywood Orchestral woodwinds vs Orchestral Tools Berlin Woodwinds. I have to make my mind up in 24 hours for least minute project. Your thoughts?

VSL Woodwinds SE is only like $100 so its a pretty safe bet.

[VitaEtMusica]

I'm for Nick. Hands down the best thing EW had going for them. Can you even name a product that Nick didn't produce that you'd actually want to buy?

Maybe while I wait 15 minutes for a piano patch to load on Play I'll work on my latest self help book- How to Make Your Company Implode in Less Than 30 Days.

What a bunch of wonks.

[Nowak]

Play sucks. PIANOS is out of tune.

Everytime someone has some grief with Pianos, DR pulls the Herbie Hancock card.

Zzzzzzzzzz.

Thomas and Nick, please start developing for Kontakt.

[EastWest Lurker]

Originally Posted by donethur

everything is about money at the end, no friendship, no love to the music, no art, no passion, only money. That sucks.

Whatever you think about the situation the one thing I can tell you for an absolute certainty, that there is PLENTY of passion involved

[kgdrum_nyc]

pa$$ion

[EastWest Lurker]

Originally Posted by kgdrum_nyc

pa$$ion

I know these guys, you don't. i am telling you that whatever their flaws as people, caring "only about money" is not one of them.

[kgdrum_nyc]

I don't know DR personally but I have exchanged emails and posts with him & honestly he's the main reason I avoid EW besides PLAY which IMO was a terrible money generated move and a horrible mistake for EW.
I actually have known Jennifer for many years prior to her employment with EW.
She used to work at Sam Ash here in NYC and yes I agree she is a great person.
Ryse who used to do tech support for EW is also a great guy that I've dealt with quite a bit & one of the nicest most knowledgable dedicated people I've ever dealt with.
If he still works with EW, I agree is he is also wonderful.
Jay,I have dealt with EW quite a bit more than you might realize,prior to your employment with them.
My dislike for PLAY,EW's policies with censoring and deleting posts on SOL etc...their marketing practices & general conduct and apparent lack of business ethics.
The subsequent apparent changes in their NFR policies.
I do beta testing for other companies I'd be infuriated if I did work for companies with these kinds of restrictions & limitations!
Nice way to thank demo writers. lol

IMO this is reprehensible as is the apparent treatment and policy change with Nick & Thomas.
To go after the developers who were the driving creative forces behind EW and were obviously encouraged to make demos and promote EW libraries with the product line,now this is being used against them,this obvious malicious legal maneuver is a a low blow and shows a level of conduct from a company I'm glad I no longer patronize.
I might be misinformed but I suspect those policies are pa$$ionately enforced by DR.
;-)