MacMiin Server, iMac 27, or used Mac Pro

[Jus]

Originally Posted by digiman

Unless there's another way to use the 2 disk drives from my PC with the Mac Mini or iMac,
Thanks

FireWire Enclosure Kits

And there's two recent threads for a rather similar question I think:
Need a new Mac. Considering Mac Mini.
Which Apple Mac computer should I get for my music production? (2012)

Considering your budget, you can read those threads as a recommendation for Mac Mini Server (2011), it seems to me. To compete with that in any way, a quadcore Mac Pro would have to be 2009 model at the least (see this: http://browser.primatelabs.com/mac-benchmarks). I don't know about the exact prices in your country but I suspect such a Mac Pro (used) for 1100 dollars is very hard to find?

[Espiridion]

I have a Mac Mini Server and it is often troublesome. For example:
-I could not install many plugins from Waves, Sonnox, URS, etc. In some cases, repairing permissions and restarting solved the problem. Perhaps if the OS is not the server version some of these issues would not appear. I'm not sure.
-This morning one of my USB ports stopped working.
-It gets VERY hot. I use 1 or 2 fans in order to keep it cooler. My drives are 102 and 98 degrees (F) at the moment, with less than 2 hours of use, a Cooler Master underneath the Mini, and a Lasko tower fan in front of it.
-One hard drive got messed up and I had been using the Mini less than 3 months. Geniuses and authorized service centers said I had to change the drive and reinstall everything. I managed to fix it on my own. I don't recall the specifics but probably with Disk Warrior and other utilities I have.

I've had my share of trouble with a G4 and a G5, but with the Mini they've occurred faster. Mine is probably a year old or even less.
OS 10.7.4
2 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

I'm happy with it and got a very good deal when I bought it. I'm not sure I would recommend it over the other ones you mentioned. I would probably get the used Mac Pro.

[adleina]

Espiridion, do you think the trouble you're having could be behind buying it from a seller other than the Apple store? Or, do you think you'd be running into these problems regardless of where you purchased it from? I haven't bought any Apple products from anywhere but the official store.

[Espiridion]

Originally Posted by adleina

Espiridion, do you think the trouble you're having could be behind buying it from a seller other than the Apple store? Or, do you think you'd be running into these problems regardless of where you purchased it from? I haven't bought any Apple products from anywhere but the official store.

I avoid the Apple Store
I don't even buy software or music from Apple. I bought my G5 used on eBay and it had Apple Care. Apple's internal drive failed and the Apple Care was useless. The Apple geniuses were not of much help either. They said my data were gone and unrecoverable. I solved that with Data Rescue II.

I did buy a G4 directly from Apple in 1999, the Yikes! model. I don't think you'll have more or less issues if you buy from a reputable seller, and often you can find cheaper prices elsewhere (MacMall, Amazon, etc.). I always buy memory and hard drives from other sellers, but never from Apple. When I used eBay, the seller had plenty of positive feedback.

When buying used, perhaps having Apple Care can help. To be honest I no longer remember how it works or whether they have restrictions. I do recall that once they said that my G5's warranty was void since I had opened it to install another drive. Perhaps now it is different. I ended up never using my Apple Care.

[phas3d]

There's an eminent iMac refresh. I would would wait for that. The Mac Pro solution is a nice one, but not the 4 core one IMO. I would just wait out a little before choosing.

[Dpro]

Originally Posted by Espiridion

I have a Mac Mini Server and it is often troublesome. For example:
-I could not install many plugins from Waves, Sonnox, URS, etc. In some cases, repairing permissions and restarting solved the problem. Perhaps if the OS is not the server version some of these issues would not appear. I'm not sure.
-This morning one of my USB ports stopped working.
-It gets VERY hot. I use 1 or 2 fans in order to keep it cooler. My drives are 102 and 98 degrees (F) at the moment, with less than 2 hours of use, a Cooler Master underneath the Mini, and a Lasko tower fan in front of it.
-One hard drive got messed up and I had been using the Mini less than 3 months. Geniuses and authorized service centers said I had to change the drive and reinstall everything. I managed to fix it on my own. I don't recall the specifics but probably with Disk Warrior and other utilities I have.

I've had my share of trouble with a G4 and a G5, but with the Mini they've occurred faster. Mine is probably a year old or even less.
OS 10.7.4
2 GHz Intel Core i7
8 GB RAM

I'm happy with it and got a very good deal when I bought it. I'm not sure I would recommend it over the other ones you mentioned. I would probably get the used Mac Pro.

This is far from the norm, many users have been using Mac Mini servers with no problems. I think first off you should have immediately wiped the drive and installed a fresh version of either Lion or Snow Leopard.

As far as installs go its common knowledge that you always repair permissions after installing new software or updates. It is a really simple thing to do as well.

I think you just are not doing proper stuff that most people should or do to keep things running smoothly.

Personally I buy my Mac's from Apple or other sellers all depending on price. In fact my last two Mac's were bought from Apple refurbished. One is of them being a Imac that has seen 5 years of use with the only problem being a band down the screen which the Apple store repaired for free out of warranty. Ya no Apple care, go figure. Apple has always given me great customer service.

Right now you can get a Mac Mini server refurbished from the Apple store deal section for $850. Its really hard to beat that kind of pricing.
Getting a used Mac Pro is a double edged sword. You want at least a 2009 or newer for it to be at least as fast or faster than something like the quad core Mac Mini server.
Now the thing is that means two things.
1. You are buying a computer that does not have any thunderbolt capability.
2. It could wind up being a lot more price wise.

I have been looking at prices for Mac Pro's its really hard to get a 2009 one for under $1200 Now at that point you could be looking at getting a Mac Mini server for considerably less or even possibly finding a 2010-2011 Imac i7 setup.

So if you are absolutely sold on Mac Pro's expect to pay even for the good used ones as people still feel they are valuable.

[Espiridion]

Originally Posted by Dpro

This is far from the norm, many users have been using Mac Mini servers with no problems. I think first off you should have immediately wiped the drive and installed a fresh version of either Lion or Snow Leopard.

That would be odd, given that it's my Windows 7 partition. It used to be my backup partition. Installing from scratch was also problematic considering that I had no Internet access when this happened, and you don't get a DVD with the OS as the Mac Mini lacks a CD/DVD drive. It has an option to install Lion via Disk Utility IIRC.
The Mac Mini Server comes with the Server OS, in my case it was Lion.

Originally Posted by Dpro

As far as installs go its common knowledge that you always repair permissions after installing new software or updates. It is a really simple thing to do as well.

From what I recall, the common knowledge is that this practice is useless for the most part. Some people do this only when dealing with Apple software.
"...Repair Permissions does not repair permissions on any third party software (or any Apple software outside of the Base System)..."
Perhaps things have changed. I know that these days ACL permissions have been an issue for many users, myself included.

Originally Posted by Dpro

I think you just are not doing proper stuff that most people should or do to keep things running smoothly.

I don't consider myself an Apple genius, but numerous times I've solved issues that Apple geniuses could not solve, and friends and colleagues would ask me for advise for their Macs, including an Apple certified tech.
I know I've done nothing wrong. I bet that searching for "Mac Mini problems" will yield plenty of results. Sometimes it is the user's fault, and other times it is not.

As preventive maintenance I use iDefrag and Disk Warrior a couple of times a year, in addition to monitoring my Mac with Disk Drill Pro and Xscan. Sometimes I also use TinkerTool System.

Originally Posted by Dpro

Personally I buy my Mac's from Apple or other sellers all depending on price. In fact my last two Mac's were bought from Apple refurbished. One is of them being a Imac that has seen 5 years of use with the only problem being a band down the screen which the Apple store repaired for free out of warranty. Ya no Apple care, go figure. Apple has always given me great customer service.

And it has given others awful service. I've had both good and bad experiences with them. It has gotten better.

Originally Posted by Dpro

Right now you can get a Mac Mini server refurbished from the Apple store deal section for $850. Its really hard to beat that kind of pricing.

Makes me happier about the price I paid!

[Dpro]

Originally Posted by Espiridion

That would be odd, given that it's my Windows 7 partition. It used to be my backup partition. Installing from scratch was also problematic considering that I had no Internet access when this happened, and you don't get a DVD with the OS as the Mac Mini lacks a CD/DVD drive. It has an option to install Lion via Disk Utility IIRC.
The Mac Mini Server comes with the Server OS, in my case it was Lion.

hmm I wonder if its because you are using all this stuff on Windows 7? I personally use OSX for my audio stuff.

Originally Posted by Espiridion

From what I recall, the common knowledge is that this practice is useless for the most part. Some people do this only when dealing with Apple software.
"...Repair Permissions does not repair permissions on any third party software (or any Apple software outside of the Base System)..."
Perhaps things have changed. I know that these days ACL permissions have been an issue for many users, myself included.

Again I deal with OSX not windows . YMMV

Originally Posted by Espiridion

I don't consider myself an Apple genius, but numerous times I've solved issues that Apple geniuses could not solve, and friends and colleagues would ask me for advise for their Macs, including an Apple certified tech.
I know I've done nothing wrong. I bet that searching for "Mac Mini problems" will yield plenty of results. Sometimes it is the user's fault, and other times it is not.

I have been in the same boat here. I do not go to the Genius bar or Apple for software related issues I solve them myself. The only time I use Apple is for possible hardware issues. In that realm service has been extremely good. Of course I am in California and things could possibly be different say in Europe. All I know is two or three times now I have had things fix or replaced out of warranty for free. When my old Macbook died last year I took it in and they told me they could fix for a flat price of $270. That indeed was quite cheap. Though I did the math and realized that though it could be fixed on the cheap it probably had a $500 value working.
I took the money I would have spent and parted out my dead Macbook and put it all towards a Macbook Air.

Originally Posted by Espiridion

As preventive maintenance I use iDefrag and Disk Warrior a couple of times a year, in addition to monitoring my Mac with Disk Drill Pro and Xscan. Sometimes I also use TinkerTool System.

I am not sure about Windows 7 but in OSX these days defragging a HD has become unnecessary.
Perhaps part of your problem is you are trying to use to many things to make sure everything is ok. Just the name Tinkertool sounds like you are messing with your system way to much.

I don't know man, all I do know is your experience is far from the norm. There are quite a few people here on GS alone using Mac Mini servers with absolutely no problems like yours.

Perhaps you got yours cheap because it had hardware issues that were never addressed by the particular seller and they just kept quite about them. I have seen that kind of thing happen to people before. Hence the great price you said you got.

As far as the heat issue goes?
Improper thermal paste on the CPU could be a possibility. It was a problem in Macbook's and MBP pro's a few years back that was easily remedied by reapplication of the thermal paste. Those units were known for running hot because of it and that was one of the main fix's.

that is my opinion and my experiences. YMMV.

[Espiridion]

Originally Posted by Dpro

hmm I wonder if its because you are using all this stuff on Windows 7? I personally use OSX for my audio stuff.

Again I deal with OSX not windows . YMMV

Windows is in one of my partitions, and I only use it for work. For audio I use OS X.

Originally Posted by Dpro

I am not sure about Windows 7 but in OSX these days defragging a HD has become unnecessary.

That's what most people think
OS X only defragments certain files automatically. "Under Mac OS X, HFS+ also includes some limited automatic defragmentation. If you have journaling turned on, and the fragmented file is smaller than twenty megabytes, and it has more than eight fragments, Mac OS X will defragment it for you when you access it, assuming that there is sufficient contiguous free space."

It has been extremely useful for me when dealing with large audio and video files. Some video files have been virtually unplayable prior to defragmentation. There are many defragmenting apps for the Mac (Drive Genius, Tech Tool Pro) and iDefrag is the best one I've used.

Originally Posted by Dpro

Perhaps part of your problem is you are trying to use to many things to make sure everything is ok. Just the name Tinkertool sounds like you are messing with your system way to much.

I use it to do simple things, some that even the OS is supposed to do, like the daily/weekly/monthly scripts.

Originally Posted by Dpro

I don't know man, all I do know is your experience is far from the norm. There are quite a few people here on GS alone using Mac Mini servers with absolutely no problems like yours.

Perhaps you got yours cheap because it had hardware issues that were never addressed by the particular seller and they just kept quite about them. I have seen that kind of thing happen to people before. Hence the great price you said you got.

As far as the heat issue goes?
Improper thermal paste on the CPU could be a possibility. It was a problem in Macbook's and MBP pro's a few years back that was easily remedied by reapplication of the thermal paste. Those units were known for running hot because of it and that was one of the main fix's.

that is my opinion and my experiences. YMMV.

Many issues have been mentioned by plenty of users. Although the specifications state "Operating temperature: 50° to 95° F (10° to 35° C)" I found numerous threads about the higher temperatures. Mine is not an isolated issue.

BTW, it had no issues when I bought it. It was brand new, open box. I love it and use it every day

[noisenet]

The iMac is a great machine. I used a 2007 model for nearly five years, including a LOT of use with Logic. And that was a much less powerful machine than today's iMac's.

That said, I'm currently using a current model Mac Mini Server and love it! This little bugger smokes. It runs a little warm (no numbers right now, sorry) but that hasn't caused me any issues. Even when the fan is whirring it's not loud at all, nothing like the days of those old beige tower PC's.

If I had a bit more money at my discretion, to be honest I probably would have gotten an iMac because I just like those machines a lot - but for what I paid for the Mac Mini Server, I'm beyond pleased with it and recommend as strongly as I possibly can!

[skira]

Mac Mini & iMac are both due for a refresh, the iMac rumored for Sept/Oct release. (No word on the Mac Mini yet.) So if you have to buy now the best bang for the buck is something used or refurbed. (store.apple.com refurbs have full 1-year warranties and are eligible for the 3-year extended Applecare warranty as well.)

None of your choices offers USB 3.0 (which will be the standard going forward, and is a big step up in speed over USB 2.0) and the Mac Pro won't have Thunderbolt. Can you wait untril September/October?

If not and I had to buy today I'd get a new or used MacMini/server if I already owned a decent monitor. Otherwise I'd get as much iMac as I could afford.

[phas3d]

Mac Pro will probably have thunderbolt when it will be revised nest year. I bet more on thunderbolt being the next standard than USB3 though.

[skira]

Originally Posted by phas3d

Mac Pro will probably have thunderbolt when it will be revised nest year. I bet more on thunderbolt being the next standard than USB3 though.

No. TB will be in high-end PCs but USB 3.0 will be on every PC and Mac. It's also backwards-compatible with USB 2.0 so existing peripherals will all work... And without the $50 active cable needed by Thunderbolt. TB definitely has its place but its limited availability on new computers combined with a higher price makes USB3 the new mass-market standard.

[phas3d]

TB is way more flexible than USB3 and has more bandwidth. If you are talking about consumer and prosumer market than USB3 will be it. But that's not what I do and pros are really looking forward to TB.

[Dpro]

Originally Posted by skira

If not and I had to buy today I'd get a new or used MacMini/server if I already owned a decent monitor. Otherwise I'd get as much iMac as I could afford.

I agree completely with this.

[digiman]

Originally Posted by skira

Mac Mini & iMac are both due for a refresh, the iMac rumored for Sept/Oct release. (No word on the Mac Mini yet.) So if you have to buy now the best bang for the buck is something used or refurbed. (store.apple.com refurbs have full 1-year warranties and are eligible for the 3-year extended Applecare warranty as well.)

None of your choices offers USB 3.0 (which will be the standard going forward, and is a big step up in speed over USB 2.0) and the Mac Pro won't have Thunderbolt. Can you wait untril September/October?

If not and I had to buy today I'd get a new or used MacMini/server if I already owned a decent monitor. Otherwise I'd get as much iMac as I could afford.

I think I will go with a MacMini Server. Appreciate all the feedback!

[digiman]

I can get a 2008 Mac Pro w/ 2 3Ghz Quad core Xeon processors for $1100 from a local deal on CL. Is that a good deal and will that get me more bang for buck than the mac mini server i7?

[phas3d]

Getting a desktop right now imo is a mistake. Everything points for a refresh next month. If you buy used or new, the choice will be either cheaper or with more features by then.

[digiman]

[skira]

Originally Posted by phas3d

Everything points for a refresh next month. If you buy used or new, the choice will be either cheaper or with more features by then.

Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy Your Mac, iPod or iPhone

[Reptil]

Mac Mini (wait!)
or Mac Pro 2009 or 2010 I have rocksolid trust in my Mac Pro. Solid piece of hardware. Modular so easy to service.

I've heard from friends working in large-ish DTP and design corporations that modern iMacs aren't made to last. The screens and graphic cards fail. They're good value for the money but I like to upgrade only once every 5 years myself.

[skira]

Originally Posted by Reptil

I've heard from friends working in large-ish DTP and design corporations that modern iMacs aren't made to last. The screens and graphic cards fail.

I'd like to see some stats on that. I've found iMacs to be pretty hardy units.

My 24" iMac screen recently failed ... 4.5 years after buying the iMac in September 2007. Repair not really worth the cost and I already had an external monitor, so the external monitor is simply acting as the sole, main monitor. I've definitely gotten my money's worth out of this thing though, and I'm waiting to see what the new iMacs and Mac Minis look like (hopefully sooner than later) and then I'm jumping on one. I have no problem with the idea of getting another iMac.

A friend has a 5-year-old iMac whose internal hard drive died. Again, it was too expensive to have someone open it up and replace the drive, so she just uses an external Firewire drive as the boot drive and keeps on going.

[Reptil]

I had to listen to one of my friends ranting about it; that one particular firm he works at has had a failure rate of 40% (on the screens mostly), and no, it wasn't cost effective to repair it. The ones that were under warrantee weren't always repaired successfully. Those companies still buy new iMacs since it's the cost effective format for them (they don't need streaming so no high volume harddisk arrays etc. - a central server does the trick)
So going on that (and some simular stories) I'm loving my Mac Pro with every click. though mine died I'd rather buy a Mac Book Pro than an iMac.
Or mod a mac mini for second harddisk and double the RAM (16 gb).

Stats? i don't think Apple will give out those. hearsay and rumours is all you'll get from me

4-5 years is a good score though..

[SKyflash34]

Someone must have been reading my mind because I was going to post and ask the very same question!
I too was considering either a used Mac Pro or a Mini but I already found that a comparable quad Mac pro would cost too much and like the post above, no Thunderbolt.

Between Mountain Lion, a Possible PT 11 release and a Mac Mini refresh I might as well
save my pennies and just buy the new Mini if it's out by Sept/Oct. as speculated.

[skira]

The main problems with the Mini for some people are that

(a) the laptop hard drive in it is relatively slow
compared to larger desktop drives (though not an issue if
you upgrade to an internal SSD [expensive starting at
another $400]),
(b) that the basic video card is pokey and steals RAM from
the system for use (Intel HD Graphics 3000 processor with
288MB of RAM shared with main memory), and
(c) you're limited to 8Gb RAM from Apple for $100
(although for $150 you can install your own 16Gb RAM)

And of course it doesn't come with any accessories, like keyboard, mouse, DVD-burner, HD webcam or monitor.

For someone who wants to use their Mac for music only/mostly the Mac Mini might be just the ticket, but for video or photography use you may find it somewhat underpowered with regular use of apps like Aperture, Lightroom, Photoshop or Final Cut. I do use some of those apps regularly, so the current Mac Mini line-up is not appealing, but who knows what Apple will put in the upcoming refresh....

I don't need the slots and power supply in a Mac Pro, so ideally for me, Apple would put Mac Pro Xeon chips and a good video card into either a bulked-up iMac or bulked-up Mac Mini. But I think that's pretty unlikely.