question about the vst-rtas fxpansion wrapper

[Benmrx]

It seems that this is the "go-to" solution for using 3rd party plugin DSP (I.E. Duende, UAD-1, Powercore) in PTLE

I've seen a little tutorial (somewhere on the interweb) that showed someone using a UAD-1 card with a PTLE system. According to this tutorial, the wrapper came with a delay compensation plugin, so you could use the UAD stuff without any phase issues.
It basically was showing that the wrappers delay comp. plug isn't in samples, but it's just a number to compensate for the number of UAD plugs you're using.

For example....put a UAD Neve 1073 on your kick and snare, and put one of the fxpansion delay compensating plugs on all the other drum tracks with a setting of "1".

So my first question is......is that the way it really works in PTLE.

My second question is....is it the same for all these 3rd party DSP dealies?

For example....put a UAD Neve 1073 on kick and snare, SSL Channelstrips on all the other drums.....at this point I would no longer need one of the delay comp. plugs because all the drums are delayed by the same amount....even though from different DSP dealies? I really hope that's how it works

BTW, I haven't used any of these things before, but have heard the latency is pretty bad, so I also wonder if people do something like put one of the delay comp. plugs on EVERY track before they start to mix, that way when you add one, you just take away the delay comp. plug?

Sorry for the long ramble, but after demoing a few plugs, I've come to realize they've really come along way since the last I tried to use plugs on a mix (2000)

[gfx]

Hi Ben ,

Couple of things to clear up.

The wrapper does not introduce any latency.

When people use UAD's/Powercores/Duende's etc the latency of the plugin is a function of the overall latency set in the PT options. For example if your system is set up for 512 samples then the latency when using a plugin with be 2 x 512 so 1024 per plugin instanciated.

This is the same for PT HD as well but it has PDC so you do not notice it as much.

This latency is also present in the UAD plugins when used as VST as well.

The reason why it is so high is very simple , as each time you insert a plugin the audio has to be piped to the card and then back to PT again if you inserted 2 plugins in series then the latency will be 4 x 512.

The wrapper does not ship with any compensation plugins. There is a latency compensator plugin provided by UAD themselves and you use this on any tracks which do not have any UAD plugins on them in order to align them back up with those tracks which do.

Hope this clears a few things up

Cheers

GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd

[Ol' Betsey]

Hi FX,

Any news on a UB version?

Cheers,

R.

[Dysanfel]

Originally Posted by gfx

Cheers

GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd

What a great forum, even the Devs hang out here.

[Benmrx]

Originally Posted by gfx

For example if your system is set up for 512 samples then the latency when using a plugin with be 2 x 512 so 1024 per plugin instanciated.

The wrapper does not ship with any compensation plugins. There is a latency compensator plugin provided by UAD themselves and you use this on any tracks which do not have any UAD plugins on them in order to align them back up with those tracks which do.

So this sounds like using a UAD card with PTLE is pretty much like using outboard gear...as far as the buffer setting is concerned with how much latency is introduced.

If UAD provides a compensator plug in, does the SSL Duende offer one as well?

Thanks for your help.

[MACHINE]

interesting

[Angus_FX]

Hi Betsey,

We have a UB version in beta -- the main problem is a lack of UB VSTs to test with, also the fact that Steinberg screwed the pooch with VST2.4 which is supposed to be mandatory on MacIntel.

Best regards,
Angus.

[davidwilson]

Thought I'd revive this thread instead of starting a new one.

I am wondering if the new V2 VST to RTAS wrapper for PT HD 7 has an improved latency and can create more instances of individual plug inns.

I know at FX they say the wrapper itself introduces no latency but I also know that changing to buffer withing the wrapper impacts upon the latency time.

If someone can be straight with me it would be appreciated as it will help me decite wether to go to PT 7 (meaning I will need to buy a G4 with 1g prossesor intead of my current G4 867 as a requirement for PT7)

[Angus_FX]

I am wondering if the new V2 VST to RTAS wrapper for PT HD 7 has an improved latency and can create more instances of individual plug inns.

The wrapper itself does not have any latency - the question should be, 'does the combination of PT7 and the new wrapper allow you to run your (UAD, Powercore, Duende, LiquidMix) plug-ins at lower latency?'

The new wrapper is considerably more efficient than the old, and you no longer have to adjust the buffer size manually -- it automatically matches the DSP card buffer size to PT's own buffer size. That means you can run a few more plug-ins, and perhaps at lower latency, than before, but it's not a magic bullet:- there's no way of eliminating latency with PT LE 7 and these cards (if you have PT HD 7, it's automatically compensated for, but not with LE).

If someone can be straight with me it would be appreciated as it will help me decite wether to go to PT 7 (meaning I will need to buy a G4 with 1g prossesor intead of my current G4 867 as a requirement for PT7)

If you don't have to decide right now, don't.. IMHO it's a much better bet to wait for the Intel Macs to shake out, even the low-end models (iMac, Mini Duo) have 4x the horsepower of a 1 gig G4.

[davidwilson]

Thanks Angus.
I will be using 2 UAD-1 cards with PT HD 7.2. Can you tell me roughly how many samples I may have to delay compensate for 1 plug in instance (say UA LA2) on one track.

At the moment im looking at around 3000 samples with buffer set to 1000 in PT 6.9.1

[Angus_FX]

With PT HD 7 and PT's hardware I/O buffer size set to 256, the delay should be either 512 or 768 samples overall, and PT will be able to auto-compensate for that.

[davidwilson]

Wow thats a big improvement.

BTW thanks for a great product.

[gfx]

David ,

Latency is a function of the following.

Buffer size of your PT software and ANY latency inherant in the plugin you are using.

The way ALL DSP cards is the same with PT or ANY other software , you need a buffer to send the audio to the card , you then need a buffer for the card to process the data then a final buffer to return this audio back to PT.

This is why you see a latency of 3000 samples when your buffer size is set to 1000 in PT

3 x 1000 = 3000.

Its that simple.

Make your PT buffer size smaller and you will get less latency running at say 256 samples would bring the overall latency to 768 samples , 3 x 256.

As Angus has said and was mentioned by me previously , this latency is caused by using DSP cards/boxes with PT or ANY other host not by the wrapper. The native VST versions of these plugins also have exactly the same latencies when used in Nuendo or Cubase etc ditto for AU plugins that use DSP based processing.

You cannot escape latency on these systems, the pain is that LE is one of the rare hosts that wont automagically compensate for it.

Bear in mind when using PT HD it has 2 PDC 'engines' long and short , short uses less DSP but will only compensate up to 1024 samples. So in the above example you would be able to instanciate 1 plugin from UAD with compensation , to use more than 1 in series you would need to use the long 4096 samples compensation.

Also bear in mind that some of the plugins themselves have there own inbuilt processing latency which is addtional to any system buffer latency but is usually only a few samples or so.

GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd

[SoundUniverse]

Another question about the wrapper. I have the FX wrapper that comes with the UAD card. Is there any benefit by upgrading to the full wrapper, besides getting to use other VST plugs that are not UA? P.S. Still running Protools 6.9 on windows.

[SoundUniverse]

bump

[Angus_FX]

Another question about the wrapper. I have the FX wrapper that comes with the UAD card. Is there any benefit by upgrading to the full wrapper, besides getting to use other VST plugs that are not UA? P.S. Still running Protools 6.9 on windows.

Not really.. the one that comes with the UAD card is fully featured besides the fact that it only runs UAD plugins.

[lozion]

Hi Angus,
Any word on the upcoming UB version of your wrapper?
Apple has completed their Intel transition with the new Macpro, to be supported by Digidesign come September...

Cheers,

[Angus_FX]

It's in beta.. we're a bit held back by the lack of UB VSTs and the mess Steinberg made of VST2.4 - once a few more of those are out in the wild we should be able to approve and release it.

[peeder]

Angus/gfx,

Thanks for communicating so well.

I have the UAD-1 card and am considering more wrapped plugs for my PT LE system. One unfortunate aspect is all the plugs show up in the 'Other' submenu rather than in the Reverb, Dely, Dynamics, etc. submenus like 'real' RTAS plugs. I'm willing to edit these assignments manually...is there software (like a resource editor, etc.) that will allow me to do so?

You are of course free to say "use at your own risk!"

Cheers
peeder