Is there anyway to figure out the key of a song thru an osx app

[29sounds]

Originally Posted by dr_Jezz

but I still have issues working out the key even if I wrote a song I did a solo on, so out of interest, I did this a few hours ago (and the piano piece in the middle is just a few bars thrown in out of time and rougher than ****, just as a memory marker for tomorrow), but can you tell me the key? It's a standard solo key I use all the time which I think is a blues key in A, but I have no idea what key the song is actually in.

Learning some basic music theory will help you figure out the key from the chord progressions you are playing.

If you're serious about your music and or improving your craft, ear training and knowing basic music theory is a must. You can always just noodle around, but that's like walking around your house with a blindfold on.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by cinealta

No software can tell what key this song is in:

Arnold Schoenberg: Piano Concerto op. 42 (Excerpt) - YouTube

Oh, man, I love that. (The YT clip cut off abruptly, but it just prodded me to put the full work into my MOG playlist. Sounds a LOT better at 320 kbps. )

I think the thing that gets me about Schoernberg is that it's usually so 'musical' despite how far it is outside the norms of what went before. I've heard plenty of polytonal/atonal music that doesn't 'sing' -- but Schoernberg, to me, really does.

This piece and this recording with Uchida on piano and Boulez whipping the Cleveland just sounds amazingly great to me... a real sensual thrill.

[cinealta]

Originally Posted by theblue1

...I think the thing that gets me about Schoernberg is that it's usually so 'musical' despite how far it is outside the norms of what went before. I've heard plenty of polytonal/atonal music that doesn't 'sing' -- but Schoernberg, to me, really does.

This piece and this recording with Uchida on piano and Boulez whipping the Cleveland just sounds amazingly great to me... a real sensual thrill.

Yup, Schoenberg is great. Always loved Boulez, and Lorin Maazel, with the Cleveland.

[dr_Jezz]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Good ol' blues. Even if you hate the form, its influence is so deeply ingrained in 20th Century pop that most of us have what almost seems an innate/gut understanding and expectations. (I do recognize that it's now the 21st C. Sometimes I wish more people seemed to. )


One thing I did was simply 'jamming' to recorded music a lot. (This was before the pre-digital period of widespread accessibility to standardized tuners and locked down recording speeds, so I found myself getting better at quick guitar tuning adjustments, too. Always handy.)

I'd pick out single note solos (at first -- and you can do that on piano just like guitar) and -- when I'd inevitably hit a bad note not comfortably in the key, I'd try to figure out how to 're-contextualize' that after the fact with my next note. (It's a habit I picked up from listening to Jimi Hendrix and continually saying to myself, Hey, that note doesn't sound like it's in this key! but then the next few notes he would find a way of making it all work somehow. (Usually. )

Honestly, over the years, I've often not bothered to figure out what key different songs were in until I either had to tell someone what key I thought it was in or sat down to play an accompaniment part...

Lol! As a frustrated non-guitarist who plays keys, I used to think the same thing about Eddie Van Halen, and you're right, most of the time it doesn't matter which is why I never developed the tallent - but some times if I want to play with software - and get this software - it demands I'm cleverer than it! Go figure

[dr_Jezz]

Originally Posted by 29sounds

If you're serious about your music and or improving your craft, ear training and knowing basic music theory is a must.

Man, I've always confused people by sitting down and playing 'by ear' and then telling them 'my ear' is crap - because it is. I've spent time trying to train my ear with software, but the only thing I can recognise is intervals, I simply can't hear what some people seem to be hearing, though I can play tolerably well, mostly. That Schoenberg piece was in the Nigel Tufnel D minor surely?

[elambo]

Originally Posted by cinealta

No software can tell what key this song is in:

Arnold Schoenberg: Piano Concerto op. 42 (Excerpt) - YouTube

Nor this one:

It's So Cold in the D - YouTube

[VastArray]

Doesn't Melodyne have a feature that will tell you the key of a piece of music?

[dr_Jezz]

I've been thinking about this topic since this thread a few weeks back, and the suggestions that people should learn basic music theory etc (and I do know quite a bit, I just have a blind spot for working out keys) - now I've just learned green onions off the master booker T himself on the Keyboard Magazine website and have been thinking about the key. Someone above said "listen to the root and anyone with half an ear can tell the key", well the root comes accross quite clearly as F, but the riff has a,b and e flat in it, which would suggest this is in C minor (also the c minor blues scale is all over it), so would someone with golden ears tell me how it can sound as if it's rooted in F, but be in C minor, and does this negate some of the more simplistic comments earlier?

Edit - or could it even some kind of f minor with a sharpened 6th - I doubt it?

[kennyda]

Yeah, you definitely can't always trust software. Your ears are as good, but it depends on the person, the song and the software.

I was doing a remix of Bad Habit for a tutorial and I had decided it was D minor, but Beatport had it listed as C# major. I stuck the acapella in Spectrum and it was showing C# and D simultaneously, probably because she was bending the pitch. Melodyne wasn't too bad in this instance.

[kennyda]

Originally Posted by VastArray

Doesn't Melodyne have a feature that will tell you the key of a piece of music?

not sure, gonna download the demo and do a review of it soon

[wolfger]

maybe try this one:

DDMF: VST plugins, AU plugins, audio software
I didn´t try it myself though.

wolfger

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by VastArray

Doesn't Melodyne have a feature that will tell you the key of a piece of music?

No. The "key" of a piece of music is very subjective in a lot of cases. You can tell what "key" a song that goes F G7 C is in (IV V I progression), but think of something as ingrained as "yesterday". Were it played in C it would go C....E7, which isn't in C (you'd be expecting a Cm) so it sounds kinda odd until you hear the Am - we've instantly modulated into Am, E7 being the V chord of Am (the relative minor of C). We then go to Dm which is common to both Am and C, and so on. Is your software going to give you that?

Melodyne can sometimes tell you what chord is being played. big difference.

Originally Posted by dr_Jezz

I've been thinking about this topic since this thread a few weeks back, and the suggestions that people should learn basic music theory etc (and I do know quite a bit, I just have a blind spot for working out keys) - now I've just learned green onions off the master booker T himself on the Keyboard Magazine website and have been thinking about the key. Someone above said "listen to the root and anyone with half an ear can tell the key", well the root comes accross quite clearly as F, but the riff has a,b and e flat in it, which would suggest this is in C minor (also the c minor blues scale is all over it), so would someone with golden ears tell me how it can sound as if it's rooted in F, but be in C minor, and does this negate some of the more simplistic comments earlier?

Edit - or could it even some kind of f minor with a sharpened 6th - I doubt it?

Ok, so now you're learning about modes. For example, C to C on the white notes is a C major scale. D to D on the white notes on a piano is (if my theory hasn't collapsed and died) D Dorian mode. Contains the same chords and notes as C major, but is based around a D tonic. You can continue up the scale and do the same thing from E to E, F to F and so on. I forget which goes where, but every position has a name - Lydian, Phyrigian (sp?) and so on.

Very very common in jazz, widdly guitar rock, and even pop - even if the composer isn't aware of it.

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by VastArray

Doesn't Melodyne have a feature that will tell you the key of a piece of music?

Melodyne editor 2 Online Manual | Identifying scales with the scale detective

[dr_Jezz]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Ok, so now you're learning about modes. For example, C to C on the white notes is a C major scale. D to D on the white notes on a piano is (if my theory hasn't collapsed and died) D Dorian mode. Contains the same chords and notes as C major, but is based around a D tonic. You can continue up the scale and do the same thing from E to E, F to F and so on. I forget which goes where, but every position has a name - Lydian, Phyrigian (sp?) and so on.

Very very common in jazz, widdly guitar rock, and even pop - even if the composer isn't aware of it.

No I'm not, but thanks anyway, I've known about modes for twenty years and I Don't Play Loud Music After Lunch - I mentioned Aeolian mode as a relative minor of Ionian my first post - but I don't see what that has to do with my question about Booker T/green onions. What key is that in and is it really as simple as listening for the root and anyone with "half an ear" being able to hear the key?

[kennyda]

Originally Posted by wolfger

maybe try this one:

DDMF: VST plugins, AU plugins, audio software
I didn´t try it myself though.

wolfger

Looks interesting. I'm gonna be reviewing Melodyne Editor soon, which of course is a lot more expensive, and also Mixed in Key, which analyses a song's key, keep an eye out, ie follow MacAbleton.com on Twitter and facebook and subscribe to email updates etc. I have a load of good stuff coming up soon.

[joe_04_04]

What I tend to do is figure out all the chords, then write down all the notes from the triads of those chords. Then, all these notes will create a scale, that scale is the key. Not sure if this is correct, but it's worked for me. Anyone want to confirm?

So say you have 3 chords, we will keep it simple.

C major, f major, g major

Write down the notes from the triad of those chords:

C major = c, e, g
F major = f, a, c
G major = g, b, d

Now what scale has all those notes?

A minor does, but there's not even an a minor in the chord progression, nor does it even sound like a minor progression

C major has all those notes, the songs In the key of c major.

Its a tad bit lengthy, but it seems to work for me. Anyone else do this?

[kim olesen]

Warning, old man rant inside: This is what's wrong with many people wanting to get into music. They don't want to learn the required tools. Imagine wanting to be a bricklayer but not wanting know about mortar. Wanting to be a writer but not wanting to know the alphabet etc etc.... Being good in music takes years and years of HARD WORK. Someone said that there are lots of good unschooled musicians. There are. But they have been blessed with good ears (all good musicians have good ears). If you are not able to tell the key from your ears (with the aid of an instrument at hand) and do not even want to know music theory you have NO place in music.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kim olesen

Warning, old man rant inside: This is what's wrong with many people wanting to get into music. They don't want to learn the required tools. Imagine wanting to be a bricklayer but not wanting know about mortar. Wanting to be a writer but not wanting to know the alphabet etc etc.... Being good in music takes years and years of HARD WORK. Someone said that there are lots of good unschooled musicians. There are. But they have been blessed with good ears (all good musicians have good ears). If you are not able to tell the key from your ears (with the aid of an instrument at hand) and do not even want to know music theory you have NO place in music.

When I saw that first line warning, I thought I'd stumbled on one of my own posts...

I don't actually have a lot to add to that except to say that, while being born with a 'good ear' and perhaps a natural flair for music will certainly help -- even those who can't (currently) tell one note from another (as was once the case for me, even though I loved listening to music) can -- with considerable perseverance and maybe even a little hard work -- learn to make good, satisfying music.


I was 'certified' as having 'no musical talent whatsoever' -- not without reason -- by two different music teachers when I was a kid.

It was hard to hear, of course, since I was dying to figure out how to make music, but those music teachers were trying to save money for my parents in one case and my parents and school district in the other. I didn't really believe it but some childhood attempts to learn first keyboard -- my old man was a decent keyboardist and we had a small, basic home organ -- and then guitar proved frustrating.

I had saved up for the better part of a year to buy my first guitar (it was awful, God love it -- I still have it but it was what I eventually learned on later) and tried, fitfully, for months to make sense of it from various books and even records from Mel Bay and friends. (If I'd 'learned' the melody of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" from sheet music one more time, I would have snapped. Trying to learn in that fashion was, for me, a total waste of time.)

It wasn't until I was 20, however, that I could muster enough discipline -- with the help of my then-roomie who was himself an excellent musician and loaned me his Strat to practice on with the promise that I not scratch it and only play it through headphones so he didn't have to hear me practice.

I don't think he realizes how much he helped me out (he's now a bigtime recording engineer who shall go nameless) with his bemused tolerance and encouragement, but he had suggested I pick a 'two chord song' (I used the middle section to "Down by the River") and 'just play as steady as you can until it starts sounding like music to you.' Long haul. Apparently, in addition to my problems perceiving differences in even vaguely close pitch, I had no sense of rhythm whatsoever.

But, bottom line, I kept my head down, I kept plunking away, and one day, I thought I caught the faintest whisp of musicality in what I was playing. It no longer sounded like one, laborious strum after another. I wouldn't say it flowed... but it was a glimpse of the music that was enough to finally break through that wall of doubt. From there, it was just a matter of practicing and pushing myself to learn more. Actually, after I got going, it was more like learning more pulled me. It was fun and interesting.

Now, for me, my talent was so minimal, that those early attempts at lessons as a kid were disastrous. And, for years, people trying to show me even simple things I kind of already knew tended to flummox and fluster me. I did a lot better simply watching other guitar players -- and piano players, as well.

Maybe I'm not a master guitarist (I'm not) but I'm a hell of a lot better than I ever dreamed I'd be -- and that came, basically, by simple perseverance. Just keep truckin', as we used to say back then. Play, at least a little, every day you possibly can.

I used to tell beginning guitarists who weren't sure they had 'what it takes' to actually get anywhere that if they can even just play 15 minutes a day, every day, they will get somewhere.

Of course, once you've learned a lot, it does take a little longer to 'maintain' that knowledge and technique. But a lot of folks just want to be able to strum a few songs and sing along. And 15 minutes a day will get you there and keep you there nicely, if you stick with it.


I don't doubt that real, one-of-a-kind virtuosity probably requires that prenatal musical leg up that lets a young Mozart compose his first works at 3 years old, but for those whose aspirations are little less elevated, some hard work, perseverance, and, of course, a love of music, will get you to a place where you can make music that enriches your life.

[Jason West]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Its a tad bit lengthy, but it seems to work for me. Anyone else do this?

Your method is fine and works for 90% of the music out there. However, some songs are based on a modal key. So a song in G Mixolydian will have the same notes as C Major (as in your example) but the emphasis and home base will land on G instead of C.

[joe_04_04]

Originally Posted by Jason West

Your method is fine and works for 90% of the music out there. However, some songs are based on a modal key. So a song in G Mixolydian will have the same notes as C Major (as in your example) but the emphasis and home base will land on G instead of C.

Yeah, I'd be f-ed. The only keys sigs I'm familiar with are major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and double harmonic minors (Arabic/Byzantine)

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Yeah, I'd be f-ed. The only keys sigs I'm familiar with are major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and double harmonic minors (Arabic/Byzantine)

Natural minor/harmonic minor and likewise melodic minor are not key signatures but relative to their parent major key! In the case of harmonic/melodic minors they deviate from their parent keys with written accidentals!

Double harmonic/Gypsy minor is a modal sound built upon a harmonic minor with a raised 4th-it would still be written using the parent key signature with accidentals!

As someone else mentioned knowing what key a piece of music is in is more than looking at the first chord which is deceptive, you have to give chords context within a key, unless you're Allan Holdsworth of course

Don't know how well software can do this without a thorough analysis including context! Then there can be temporary key shifts that can throw a spanner in the works! Maybe the best software was given to us by nature, the activation code is just a bit of our time

[joe_04_04]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Natural minor/harmonic minor and likewise melodic minor are not key signatures but relative to their parent major key! In the case of harmonic/melodic minors they deviate from their parent keys with written accidentals!

Double harmonic/Gypsy minor is a modal sound built upon a harmonic minor with a raised 4th-it would still be written using the parent key signature with accidentals!

As someone else mentioned knowing what key a piece of music is in is more than looking at the first chord which is deceptive, you have to give chords context within a key, unless you're Allan Holdsworth of course

Don't know how well software can do this without a thorough analysis including context! Then there can be temporary key shifts that can throw a spanner in the works! Maybe the best software was given to us by nature, the activation code is just a bit of our time

Well damn...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Natural minor/harmonic minor and likewise melodic minor are not key signatures but relative to their parent major key! In the case of harmonic/melodic minors they deviate from their parent keys with written accidentals!

Double harmonic/Gypsy minor is a modal sound built upon a harmonic minor with a raised 4th-it would still be written using the parent key signature with accidentals!

As someone else mentioned knowing what key a piece of music is in is more than looking at the first chord which is deceptive, you have to give chords context within a key, unless you're Allan Holdsworth of course

Don't know how well software can do this without a thorough analysis including context! Then there can be temporary key shifts that can throw a spanner in the works! Maybe the best software was given to us by nature, the activation code is just a bit of our time

[joe_04_04]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Natural minor/harmonic minor and likewise melodic minor are not key signatures but relative to their parent major key! In the case of harmonic/melodic minors they deviate from their parent keys with written accidentals!

Double harmonic/Gypsy minor is a modal sound built upon a harmonic minor with a raised 4th-it would still be written using the parent key signature with accidentals!

As someone else mentioned knowing what key a piece of music is in is more than looking at the first chord which is deceptive, you have to give chords context within a key, unless you're Allan Holdsworth of course

Don't know how well software can do this without a thorough analysis including context! Then there can be temporary key shifts that can throw a spanner in the works! Maybe the best software was given to us by nature, the activation code is just a bit of our time

I guess I only know major and minor keys...

Then major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and double harmonic minor scales :/

[joe_04_04]

Well, most of my beats and songs I can get the key sig, but now that I've been corrected, I'm not sure what key this song is. I originally thought it was A Harmonic Minor (seeing that that isn't a correct key sig, maybe someone here can help me on this stumper).

Chords:

E Major
F Major
G Major
D Minor
A Minor

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5129928/Bea...g%20Sample.mp3

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Well, most of my beats and songs I can get the key sig, but now that I've been corrected, I'm not sure what key this song is. I originally thought it was A Harmonic Minor (seeing that that isn't a correct key sig, maybe someone here can help me on this stumper).

Chords:

E Major
F Major
G Major
D Minor
A Minor

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5129928/Bea...g%20Sample.mp3

Every major key has a relative minor built on the 6th tone of the parent major key(scale)! Your songs key sig would be written in C major but you are in it's relative minor 'A', the G# note that appears in your Emajor chord would be the accidental(deviation) and is responsible for creating your harmonic minor scale by changing your G note to a G#, making a semitone leading note back to your A root!

Cmajor

CDEFGABC(no #'s or b's)

Count up six tone from C you get to A, start the scale from there you

A natural minor(Aeolian mode)

ABCDEFGA(no #'s or b's)

Notice they are the same notes just starting from A.

You Emajor(V chord) chord has a G# note in it altering your scale slightly..,

A Harmonic minor

ABCDEFG#A(accidental G#)

If you start the A harmonic minor minor from E in this case you are playing a mode of the A harmonic minor known as the Phrygian dominant, another scale you will find in Latin, Classical,Flamenco and Eastern music...

Phrygian Dominant

EFG#ABCDE

I'm trying to keep the theory simple...

Best of luck

[joe_04_04]

Originally Posted by H-Rezz

Every major key has a relative minor built on the 6th tone of the parent major key(scale)! Your songs key sig would be written in C major but you are in it's relative minor 'A', the G# note that appears in your Emajor chord would be the accidental(deviation) and is responsible for creating your harmonic minor scale by changing your G note to a G#, making a semitone leading note back to your A root!

Cmajor

CDEFGABC(no #'s or b's)

Count up six tone from C you get to A, start the scale from there you

A natural minor(Aeolian mode)

ABCDEFGA(no #'s or b's)

Notice they are the same notes just starting from A.

You Emajor(V chord) chord has a G# note in it altering your scale slightly..,

A Harmonic minor

ABCDEFG#A(accidental G#)

If you start the A harmonic minor minor from E in this case you are playing a mode of the A harmonic minor known as the Phrygian dominant, another scale you will find in Latin, Classical,Flamenco and Eastern music...

Phrygian Dominant

EFG#ABCDE

I'm trying to keep the theory simple...

Best of luck

Jesus christ. I took 7 years of band class and was never taught theory. In our school system, theory and history were completely separated from band. In high school, I was in the highest band (wind ensemble) and played 2nd chair. Yet all we were expected to know was how to read our part and sight read. We were never taught how our parts integrate to make chords or movements or anything, so anything theory has been self-taught up til now. This was over my head, Ill go over it a few times and try to grasp it, but I'm not a theory guy. REALLY wish I would've took it while I was in school. Damn I'm bummed.

I do understand that that G# was one note that was out of line from it being a simple key sig, so that explains the accidental.

[Camera]

These type of threads make me feel good about having a job in the MUSIC industry...

Wait till you meet my kid...

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by dr_Jezz

No I'm not, but thanks anyway, I've known about modes for twenty years and I Don't Play Loud Music After Lunch - I mentioned Aeolian mode as a relative minor of Ionian my first post - but I don't see what that has to do with my question about Booker T/green onions. What key is that in and is it really as simple as listening for the root and anyone with "half an ear" being able to hear the key?

Fine. I must have imagined the bit where you said you had a blind spot about working out keys.

To me, if you've got chords in one key, but the piece is based around a different tonic, that's modal.

Work it out for yourself, I'm out here.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by joe_04_04

Jesus christ. I took 7 years of band class and was never taught theory. In our school system, theory and history were completely separated from band. In high school, I was in the highest band (wind ensemble) and played 2nd chair. Yet all we were expected to know was how to read our part and sight read. We were never taught how our parts integrate to make chords or movements or anything, so anything theory has been self-taught up til now. This was over my head, Ill go over it a few times and try to grasp it, but I'm not a theory guy. REALLY wish I would've took it while I was in school. Damn I'm bummed.

I do understand that that G# was one note that was out of line from it being a simple key sig, so that explains the accidental.

In a thread at another music site where a few people (including me) complained about just that sort of narrow music education, a number of people tried to maintain that that never happens. Yet my girlfriend in college was a piano major and she had no idea how to play a given chord unless you wrote it down for her. (She picked it up quickly.)

I was primarily a self-taught musician and was kind of stumbling when one of my high school buddies (I didn't start playing 'til college) saw that I couldn't figure out how scales and chords related or how to pick chords that 'went together' gracefully, so he sat me down at an old piano and gave me a half hour lesson on very basic harmonic theory, really, just harmonizing the C scale. But that was HUGE for me. It was like a bolt out of the blue. (To engage in a little purple prose.)

It was incredibly helpful at learning how to play, and particularly at helping me put together songs. Mind you, I still had a tendency to bash out chords one after the other experimentally -- you get some good stuff that way -- but when I was looking for something I knew had to be there, it gave me the knowledge framework that helped me find the missing elements quickly.