Microsoft Windows 8 "iPad Rival"

[claend]

Originally Posted by MonoBrow

No.Nobody in this Windows 8 Tablet pc thread is aware of the need for windows 8.Thanks for Reminding us.
The video that one guy, which is as bright as a 5 watt bulb in a Winterstorm postet is total crap.Many people are using it right now as you can just download it and see for yourself.Its a Beta.

Sure, yeah... Good luck with it.

[spaceman]

wow.. this surprising and quite huge. Apple actually licensed iOS design patents to Microsoft for its Windows8 Tablet.
Very unusual move from Apple..

Apple Has Licensed iOS Design Patents to Microsoft, Agreement Bans "Cloning" - Mac Rumors

[login]

I just hope iPad app developers port all those incredible good apps for music

[theblue1]

Just last week I was generously gifted with a Google Nexus 7 tablet.

First, it's a great little piece of hardware, slim, elegant, and very fast in terms of the UI and rendering complex web pages.

But it's a tablet.

And tablets have some real negatives.

I was hoping that, after I got a tablet, I would find that I was worried about nothing. But, sadly, that has not been the case.

If anything, the negatives are much worse than I had suspected they would be.

Here are the problems, all of which I foresaw reading about the first popular tablet implementations -- but all of which proved to be a much more vexing problem than I would have expected:

Smearing. OK, I'm an obsessive hand washer. My skin is dry. Yet after any sort of even light use, I find that my tablet is covered with smears. (And, judging from the enormous amount of people looking for solutions to smearing, I'm far from the only sufferer.)

Reflection. Understood that you have to have a gloss screen or it will REALLY get nasty, but, damn, gloss screens make reading or watching media a HUGE pain in the ass unless you are in the dark.

(I know, get a matte stick on screen cover and prepare to replace it frequently. That's apparently the best answer to these two issues, lame as it sounds.)

Typing. I'll admit it. I'm spoiled by my older Android phone's Swype system (apparently installed as part of the LG proprietary package?) It makes a touch screen almost usable.

Unfortunately, it's not available as an app. And that leaves me with the Android Jelly Bean virtual keypad. I can type 60-80 wpm on a real keyboard. This thing reduces me to about 10 wpm. It is unbearable.

But, hey, there's the latest Android/Google voice recognition (only when you're connected to the net as it uses remote processing). Best I've ever used, to be sure. However, there are STILL a lot of errors -- and correcting them on the idiot virtual keyboard is an ENORMOUS pain. (I'm starting to see why people who send me email from iPads often have completely incomprehensible messages, they must just give up and click send, hoping for the best. I even did that once myself in a hurry -- but then couldn't figure out what the hell I'd 'written' only a few hours earlier.)

Weight. It's pretty light at 12 ounces. But if you are holding it, it's more like 2/3 of a pound, you know?

Durability. They say you can drop an iPad and a Nexus 7 from waist height and the Nexus 7, unlike the iPad, will likely fall on its back without damage. Me, I'm not going to try to duplicate those rather disturbing vids. (Even if I'd never buy an iPad, it still hurts to see a brand new one go hurtling to sudden death.) I bought a fairly heavy leather case with enough external protection to give me a little added safety.

Easel. I can't imagine not having something. My case converts into an easel for both portrait and landscape use. Although it does make operation a little warmer. The device generally runs cool to the touch, but if you watch an HD vid on a hot day with the leather case on, it can warm up.

Happily, I can take it out and prop it on the case in easel mode. I also got a suction cup car holder to bring my purchase up to the free shipping level at Amazon -- but glad I got it, because even though I'm a bit leery of hanging it from my window in my jalopy, it's great for sticking to the glass top of my work table and can pivot to a number of angles and, of course, landscape/horizontal.

[Speaking of heat, the instructions actually say to avoid using this tablet if the ambient temperature is over 95 deg F. WTF? Ever hear of global warming? It was 116 deg F in the shade yesterday where my Mom's visiting. 95 degrees? Get real.]

Anyhow, if you add all that up, you start seeing how MS's 'new' extended form factor for the Surface, with the built in easel and integrated 'real' keyboard, etc, would go a LONG way to addressing a lot of my qualms about the basic tablet form. Just add a mouse (finger pointing is the worst for fine cursor positioning. Editing text is a real drag.

(In fact, I will be getting the micro-USB adapter to allow using a USB mouse with my Nexus, along with a starter pack of screen protectors, and some styli.)

So, you know, an OK form factor for dumb media consumption (as long as you have some way of holding it or propping it up) but for creating or editing content? Forget about it unless you're willing to extend the functionality with conventional peripherals.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by login

I just hope iPad app developers port all those incredible good apps for music

Don't count on too many sophisticated audio apps being ported over -- because differences in the iPad's hardware and OS and the Surface and whatever we're now calling the former "Metro" app OS that is somewhat analogous to iOS (although it can coexist with full Windows on the high end, Win8 Surface) are likely to be profound and run fairly deep.

[norbury brook]

the whole point of the windows 8 x86 version of the tablet is it uses the exact same programs as you use now on windows, that's what makes it appealing to me as a portable solution. And unlike iOS and the iPad you can attach peripheral devices like a normal computer.

I'm fed up of having to buy 'tablet' software, I mean I've even had to buy iOS versions of android software I've already bought because of the Apple's business model with the iStore!!!


MC

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by norbury brook

the whole point of the windows 8 x86 version of the tablet is it uses the exact same programs as you use now on windows, that's what makes it appealing to me as a portable solution. And unlike iOS and the iPad you can attach peripheral devices like a normal computer.

I'm fed up of having to buy 'tablet' software, I mean I've even had to buy iOS versions of android software I've already bought because of the Apple's business model with the iStore!!!


MC

Right. It looks like a 'convertible' done right. (Looks can be deceiving, of course.) The fact you can run full Windows programs as well as "Metro" apps and that it easily 'converts' to an almost laptop form (with many of the positives but seemingly few of the negatives) does -- at least at first glance -- make it look kind of ideal.

That said, as someone who has used Microsoft Natural keyboards since the mid 90s, I'm a tad leery of the way they handle hardware. I'm on my fourth or fifth MS Natural and every single blinkin' one of them had a substantially different key layout. And every one of them had one or more aspects that impacted proper use earlier rather than later. On one, the letters started disappearing off the keys within months. I'm a touch typist -- but when fully half the keys are 'blind' it makes it hard to quickly get your bearing. On several, they included nonstandard [and who created the standard for gosh sake?!? MS!] media keys that required a TSR service running in background -- and taking something like 7-10 MB of RAM! On two, the signal cables failed even though the keyboards were still functional.

(But they pretty much own the humpy keyboard market, so what's an ergonomically-minded boy to do?)

Anyhow, I guess they've engendered a certain amount of customer sat and loyalty with the Xbox but I'm no gamer, so I don't know.

[theblue1]

Not sure whether to give this much credibility -- particularly since the source is those fabulists at Endgadget -- but this is pretty interesting...

Microsoft's Surface tablet reported to sell for a low $199

Mind you, that's for the entry-level, non-Win 8 RT-only tablet. (RT, of course, being MS's tablet-OS.)

But if they can pull off a similarly low price on the Win8/RT tablet, something around $500 or $600 or so, that might be pretty interesting.


Still, like I noted, it's an Endgadget story and that means it's probably not worth the hot air it's printed on...

A $199 price for Surface RT "seems pretty unlikely," given the cost of materials, said IDC analyst Tom Mainelli. "We're hearing the price is more likely in the $599 range," he added.

[...]

Jack Gold, an analyst at J. Gold Associates, said he'd be "amazed" if the $199 price is correct. "That said, Microsoft could certainly sell a lot of them at that price, effectively seeding the market and gaining market share quickly, which would be good for the ecosystem of developers," Gold added.

But Gold agreed that $199 would undercut Microsoft's OEMs. "I'd think Microsoft would leave it to their OEMs to fight the low-cost price wars with Amazon and others, rather than doing it themselves," he said. "I don't think Microsoft would be good at it."

[Masaaki]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Microsoft's Surface tablet reported to sell for a low $199

Mind you, that's for the entry-level, non-Win 8 RT-only tablet. (RT, of course, being MS's tablet-OS.)

But if they can pull off a similarly low price on the Win8/RT tablet, something around $500 or $600 or so, that might be pretty interesting.

I don't mind paying $500 or $600 if the tool is useful, and works for the job I need to do on the road. I won't pay even $199 if the tool is just a toy.

[theblue1]

Well, MS apparently already tamped down the $200 rumor, saying they won't be competing in the 7" tablet category that sees $200 as the entry point. It'll probably be more like $500 for the WRT model and, I'm imagining, something closer to $900 for the Surface Pro with Win8+WRT.

PS... I'm still liking my Google Nexus 7 -- but there's no question that it's made for consuming media.

And, as I noted in my long post a few above, all the potential downsides for tablets I'd imagined were actually a bit worse than I had imagined. That said, it's a very handy device. Very quick (on my connection) at loading even relatively complex web pages. Gloss screen aside (hard to ignore the reflections though!) the HD video image is really quite good. But getting WORK done? Maybe with the addition of a mouse and keyboard but otherwise... ugh. Just updating a quick one-sentence post on Facebook or a BB is an ordeal. (For me. For one-finger, hunt-n-peck typists, it's probably no big deal. But I'm slowed from 60 or 80 wpm down to about 10. At best.)

And, of course, without a mouse (or at least a stylus), the primary mode of interaction with the device -- fingertips -- increasingly leaves fingerpainting-like sworls of smear across the screen. You know, I guess it's not that big a deal cleaning the screen before watching a vid (seems to always take longer than it should) but I find myself trying to use the back of my finger joints trying to put off the inevitable smearing. And, like I may have said, I wash my hands very frequently and have dry skin. I can only imagine what it's like for others.

[claurence]

Newegg has a few models from other manufacturers available today for pre-order. The RT versions range from $600-750, and the Intel-based versions range from a i3 at $800 through an i5 at $1200. None of my software is touch-optimized. I don't see myself spending that much on a tablet.

[Psychlist1972]

[reminder that I work for Microsoft]

Here's a third-party list of devices that are coming out:
Windows 8: The complete new PC launch list | Reviews - Laptops - CNET Reviews

I haven't verified anything on that list, but it looks pretty good.

I also recently worked with a Lenovo A720 which I put Windows 8 on. 27" 10pt touch screen that can be vertical, horizontal/flat, or anywhere in between? Plus still run regular desktop apps? Plus runs everything Win8 tablets do? It was pretty sweet, especially with the 256gb SSD I installed. Dell is also putting out a same-sized, but higher resolution all-in-one. Again, great stuff.

Also, if you all will want to tune in a half hour before the day 1 keynote (so tune in 8:30am pacific time) to Build 2012 , you'll see some some things you're bound to like. The keynote will have tons of great info, and the half hour prior will also be a lot of fun.

Pete

[Psychlist1972]

There's also some other (older) incorrect info in this thread, in case anyone is curious. Pixelsense is the current name for the table-format Surface device we've had out since 2006-ish. It has been in production since then, with the second major version (the Samsung SUR40) being a really nice collaborative platform with a great display and some really unique technology for image recognition.
Welcome to Microsoft PixelSense

Design agencies have been all over Pixelsense/surface since it originally came out. You won't find them in many livingrooms, but they're in plenty of lobbies, restaurants, game rooms, show rooms, and more.

Pete

[claurence]

Originally Posted by Paul in SoCal

That's incorrect. The models displayed on the newegg page are all x86, using several types of processors, from humble Atoms to i7-Ivy Bridges.

Newegg.com - ppssWin8Tab2012

I'm still hoping MS can do better with the Surface Pro, but I'm fully aware that under $800 they would basically sell it as a loss leader. I'm not holding my breath over that extremely remote possibility.

Oops. Thanks for the correction. I thought that the Atom-based tablets were RT versions. My mistake.

[login]

I just hope current ipad music apss are ported fast to this one so I can use a proper uSB connection, save and manage files with out hassle and developers can make drivers for this sytem too for soundcards.

[norbury brook]

Originally Posted by login

I just hope current ipad music apss are ported fast to this one so I can use a proper uSB connection, save and manage files with out hassle and developers can make drivers for this sytem too for soundcards.

Yes, I really hope devs come on board with the new windows tablets.
In theory it could be amazing.

MC

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Arksun]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Smearing. OK, I'm an obsessive hand washer. My skin is dry. Yet after any sort of even light use, I find that my tablet is covered with smears. (And, judging from the enormous amount of people looking for solutions to smearing, I'm far from the only sufferer.)

Reflection. Understood that you have to have a gloss screen or it will REALLY get nasty, but, damn, gloss screens make reading or watching media a HUGE pain in the ass unless you are in the dark.

I haven't tried the Google Nexus pad, but for the Ipad3, smearing and reflection aren't really an issue. The retina display really is superb, I haven't noticed relfections being a problem so far and it takes a lot of fingerprints to have a noticeable affect on the sharpness of the images and text. I just use good quality microfiber cloth with a dab of water to clean the surface every day or every other day and that works just fine, only takes a few seconds to do, no biggie.

I was rather clumsy at typing on the screen at first but I've managed to pick up speed now. It's still no match for touch typing on a proper qwerty keyboard, but its really not all that bad. Biggest problem I have with the iPad is the limitations of the ios, in terms of file handling, email attachments etc. But then its not really designed to be a laptop replacement, more a mini media machine, at which it works very well.

...and this coming from a long time die hard PC user. The ipad is the first apple device I've ever owned.

Anyways looking forward to seeing what this Microsoft tablets actually like in person.

[valis]

I think the idea that we need tablets to do 'real work' is a misnomer, it seems like professionals seem to come at this subject sometimes expecting their workflows to translate.

Smart phones don't eliminate your desire or need to use email on the desktop/laptop or web browsers etc on the desktop/laptop. They simply started facilitating shifting some of the less important and work-related functions we do (including dumb consumption & facebook etc) away from the desktop and into other 'slices' of our time. I liked this as I could now use the 1-3 minutes available while I wait on <insert real-world wait-state here> and stack several of those together in a day and suddenly a good portion of my casual computing has shifted away from my desktop/laptop.

Tablets first and foremost offer more of this to professionals (shifting certain activities away from the work desktop/laptop), and for many users actually eliminate the need for a desktop altogether because they do enough of what they want that they don't NEED anything more. Now almost all unrelated web/email/etc activities and even some basic 'work' can be done on tablets, and they offer a new and interesting place to explore tools/toys and have fun (hence the proliferation of inexpensive music apps). So they make a great complement to your desktop, and if you're willing to set very strict limits you can probably complete work with just a tablet. But aside from specific self-defined limits for projects why would yuo want to? I see them still as supplemental to a real desktop or at least a capable laptop, rather than replacing them for serious work.

In fact tablets are now where laptops were for a very long time in terms of capabilites to 'do work'. But for the reasons others have stated I'm still not sure that simply an increase in resolution and computing power will enable them to replace a desktop entirely. There's an interesting product out there called Leap Motion that offers significantly higher resolution 'capture' of a person's hand movements (higher resolution than kinect or a touchscreen etc) and I can see potential for that + tablets somewhere down the line

[JHTorch]

Interesting discussion, particularly for someone who just bought my 1st tablet product only 2 months ago.

At the moment, the tablet market is yet to mature. As well, user (reasonable) expectations are still forming. I sat on the tablet fence for a while because i wasn't quite sure what, if any, need a tablet would meet within my work/play lifestyle. I am self-employed and work both in a formal office environment and a more relaxed studio environment in Mantattan. My work in each environment overlaps but where I decide to work depends on the task I need to complete. So, yes, i could prepare a contract from the studio using my DAW (and remotely accessing my office desktop), I find it more efficient to be in the office for that given task. Recording a guitar track, though would have to be in the studio though.

Most of us here are busy people and need to fit 30 hours into 24, so a tablet I think is about maximizing our time ulimately for work and play. I was on jury duty recently and the tablet was useful for both work (mainly reading and responding to emails) and bordom control. And while it's somehow very exciting to think that one day we will have that one perfect computing/ communication device that can do EVERYTHING, the tech is just not there yet.

10 years from now, will we have tablets with UAD cards the size of microSD cards, able to access our studio audio storage drives and command our DAW with verbal instructions to remove the excessive wind sound picked up on the audio of some documentary footage you shot? And you are doing this as you wait on a bank line? Maybe... it is not inconceivable. But we are not there yet. So, I look at this tablet as a device that allows me to task shift work or play I used to do exclusively in the office and have the option do it when i am on the move. But I think there are a few years before you will be able to have one device for everything.

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk

[Bob Olhsson]

A network of tablets combined with a control surface and some kind of a powerful DAW server could be a complete game-changer! Swiss Army Knife computers are going away.

[CharlesEdward]

Bill Gates and microsoft are getting ready to put the smackdown on apple and its "booshie market"

[Shobiz]

Microsoft Surface Pro will be king.

[CharlesEdward]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

Mr. Gates is busy to innovate toilet, not i-thingies.
In fact, I admire Mr. Gates' effort with B&M foundation.

There no such thing as busy when your a billionaire, shit just just gets done! And what about the microsoft store?

[phas3d]

A copycat

[Masaaki]

The color of the surface tablet is terrible. Who wants pink keyboard?

Surface looks like another MS copycat, but the idea of 'tablet' is not really new or original to Apple. I've been a user of thinkpad X-tablet for 5 or 6 years?

Anyway, these Surface, iPad, Galaxy, whatever remain as 'expensive toy' in my book, because they don't run the OS I want, and thus useless for my work.

If I buy a 'tablet' now, I will buy thinkpad X-230 which comes with third generation i7 CPU, 256GB SSD, and convertible tablet-style IPS screen. It has two USB3.0 port, so I can use RME UFX and a USB3.0 pocket hard drive on the go.

[Grahamdwc]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

....these Surface, iPad, Galaxy, whatever remain as 'expensive toy' in my book,

To be fair though, in general all tablets are expensive toys.

Graham

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

Who wants pink keyboard?

My gf would love that. Doubt she would be too happy loosing her iPad though

[Masaaki]

Originally Posted by phas3d

My gf would love that. Doubt she would be too happy loosing her iPad though

In fact, my daughter would love that color
So, I would buy that for her X-mas present.

[CharlesEdward]

Originally Posted by Masaaki

The color of the surface tablet is terrible. Who wants pink keyboard?

Surface looks like another MS copycat, but the idea of 'tablet' is not really new or original to Apple. I've been a user of thinkpad X-tablet for 5 or 6 years?

Anyway, these Surface, iPad, Galaxy, whatever remain as 'expensive toy' in my book, because they don't run the OS I want, and thus useless for my work.

If I buy a 'tablet' now, I will buy thinkpad X-230 which comes with third generation i7 CPU, 256GB SSD, and convertible tablet-style IPS screen. It has two USB3.0 port, so I can use RME UFX and a USB3.0 pocket hard drive on the go.

That is what the tablet surface pro is gonna be for, and the keyboards comes in a variety of colors, so I don't know why pink seems to be the color that grabbed your attention.

[claurence]

Originally Posted by Psychlist1972

I also recently worked with a Lenovo A720 which I put Windows 8 on. 27" 10pt touch screen that can be vertical, horizontal/flat, or anywhere in between? Plus still run regular desktop apps? Plus runs everything Win8 tablets do? It was pretty sweet, especially with the 256gb SSD I installed. Dell is also putting out a same-sized, but higher resolution all-in-one. Again, great stuff.

I was just looking through a Dell brochure showing the 27" touchscreen almost flat. I imaged a full-size piano keyboard across the bottom of the screen with Cubase or another DAW open. Tap in some drums on Battery's pads right on screen. I think I want one.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-one-27-...&~ck=mn&~ck=mn