Project Studio | Mac vs. Pc

[ssl_ambition]

You guys rock!

@gussyg
I really hoped that a hackintosh would work nicely, but as said didn't know much about it. So I'm glad you're telling me that it's solid.
Got to do alittle research on how to do this properly.

@theblue1
Haha... You can hide your PC behind the mac

@IVlaverick52
I already got Win7 64bit Pro.
Are you really sure, that with this kind of case, drives, fan etc. there's absolutely no noise? Even when working long hours? You point out a quad core... What about 8,12?
Would you recommend the SSD for the OS only, otherwise 120GB is not enough for those libraries.

@Benherron.rrr
The budget is set, but it's not allowing the 'ueber' MAC and since I'm not sure if a quad core would do the job, I'm on the save side with a much cheaper but very fast PC.

@rightclick
I would love to take the MAC but the machine alone costs $4000 without any extra RAM etc. I work with a MACBook and would really like to have MACs everywhere but that's where my wallet starts to dig in.

@RogerStarr
Yes, I think PC is more than half the price of the MAC with even twice the RAM and an SSD.


@VastArray
When playing back a movie and scoring with large track count it's pretty ressource hungry. I just want a machine that can handle it all. I'm not into rocket science anyway

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by ssl_ambition

[...]

@theblue1
Haha... You can hide your PC behind the mac

[...]

I've always loved the look of the MP towers. It's a play off the classic 60s design ethos that informed things like the IBM Selectric and a lot of the big iron computers of the era.

We're pretty far past the era when people wanted servers to look cool, for the most part, and that's probably just as well... but there was often something really hip about those old mainframes and tape drives... at least to me.

Anyhow, the MP case is a really elegant, resonant design. (And I say elegant with a straight faced since I've convinced myself that the 'handles' serve the purpose of keeping the thing off the floor -- heat dissipation -- and discouraging the user from sitting things on top of it.)

Back before the Apple switch to Intel, I remember some hot rod builder taking the G5 mobo out of a Power Mac [which of course had the same case as the MP] and putting in an Intel chip and mobo and running XP on it just because he liked the case so much. (If he'd known about the impending switch, he could have waited and Bootcamped, of course. )

[Dysanfel]

All Hackintosh inquiries should start here. And be sure to donate, if you find the site useful. I did.

[Bill@WelcomeHome]

Originally Posted by Dysanfel

All Hackintosh inquiries should start here. And be sure to donate, if you find the site useful. I did.

a 27 foot iMac????? cool.

[ssl_ambition]

@IVlaverick52

Can you suggest a setup w/ an 8core or 12core processor and 20+GB RAM?

Thanks.

[glowlander]

I have been a religious Mac user for audio and video since about 95. Until Mac switched over to intel and became a bloodied monopoly, I would have said it was a no brainer. Now I am not as certain. I myself would never switch back because of the reliability issues I have seen with pc users in my circle of friends and coworkers. However, there is a video editor, that uses a built pc that does all the new hd stuff and seems very solid. The one thing he does that I recommend you would also do if you were to go the pc route, is keep it off the Internet. Macs are great because they are nearly impermeable to viruses, this has made my years of Mac use a breeze. I also highly recommend logic over cubase. I have used both and cannot fathom cubase. The instruments have knobs with crazy made up words, like turn up the fahwuzzle on the minticulator. I like sound design and need a little bit of reality in the tools I use. I think cubase is probably very good for house music though, and good if you grew up using it. I think it should be about which os you like using more, either one will do the job. I use a 8gb 13" MacBook pro, with a solid 1tb 7200 rpm FireWire 800 drive for all my samples, and was having some playback issUes before I bumped up the ram and added the better drive.

[fastlanestoner]

It's a myth that Macs don't get viruses, or that there aren't as many threats out there for a Mac as there are for PC.

I and none of my Colleagues on PC have had any issues ever.

[jimbridgman]

Another Hackintosh builder here.

I have an I7 2700K with 16GB of RAM, running 10.7.3, and I had 10.6.8 up until recently when I upgraded to Lion for Pro Tools 10.

It has worked like a charm, with zero issues, and it has been as stable as my G4s and G5s, and I have been a mac user since the late 80s, early 90s, when pro audio apps started on the Mac. I have used Pro tools since the Project/Session 8 days.

If you are interested in building a Hackintosh go check out tonymacx86.com. I did my Hackintosh using multibeast.

Oh my whole build including a rackmount case was $950.00 USD, with the 2 36 inch LCD TVs that I am using for monitors, it was $1300.00 USD

Jim

[Flagfoot]

I agree that if you use a PC, it's more reliable off the internet.

[norbury brook]

since windows 7 x64 I've been connected to the internet 24/7 with my main studio DAW's.

Not one single issue.


MC

[inthere]

Originally Posted by IVIaverick52

Core i7 3770 - $320 - Intel Core i7-3770 BX80637i73770 Processor - Quad Core, 8MB L3 Cache, 3.40GHz (3.90GHz Max Turbo), Socket H2 (LGA1155), 77W, Fan, Retail at TigerDirect.com

Noctua CPU cooler - $60 - Newegg.com - Noctua NH-U9B SE2 92mm SSO CPU Cooler

DP67BGB3 Motherboard - $160 - Intel DP67BGB3 Desktop Extreme Board - ATX, Socket H2 (LGA1155), Intel P67 Express, DDR3 1600MHz, RAID, SATA 6.0 Gb/s, CrossFire/SLI Ready, 10-Channel HD Audio, Gigabit LAN, USB 3.0 at TigerDirect.com

32GB Corsair XMS3 RAM - $240 - Newegg.com - CORSAIR XMS 32GB (4 x 8GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model CMX32GX3M4A1600C11

120GB SSD - $145 - SanDisk SDSSDX-120G-G25 120GB Extreme Solid State Drive - 120GB, SATA 6 Gb/s, Noise Reduction, High Durability, 2.5 at TigerDirect.com

External Fantom 2TB HDD - $140 - Fantom GD2000EU GreenDrive External Hard Drive - eSATA, USB 2.0, 2TB, 32MB Cache at TigerDirect.com

Antec P183 case - $140 - Newegg.com - Antec Performance One Series P183 V3 Black Aluminum / Steel / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case

2 Noctua 120mm case fans - $47 - Newegg.com - Noctua NF-P12-1300 120mm CPU Cooler and Case Fan

Antec Earthwatts power supply - $120 - Newegg.com - Antec EarthWatts Platinum Series EA-650 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS PLATINUM Certified Power Supply

ASUS GT440 passive cooled - $77 - Newegg.com - ASUS ENGT440 DC SL/DI/1GD3 GeForce GT 440 (Fermi) 1GB 128-bit DDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready Video Card

Windows 7 professional - $140 - Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64BIT Operating System Software - OEM DVD at TigerDirect.com

Total - $1589 for a top notch PC with a MASSIVE amount of RAM. You could cut some cost by going with less ram, maybe ditching the SSD, but this is just to give you an idea of what you can get for your money. This setup would easily be in the upper $2000's if it was a Mac. Also one thing to note is the storage media for your projects is up to you. I'd recommend external and Fantom drives have great reviews, but if you want 100% reliability Glyph drives are $200 for a 1TB. If you have patience you can catch a lot of killer sales popping up with Tigerdirect and Newegg.

You can buy that same RAM and SSD (although I would get the 256gb M4 for $199) and put them in an iMac for under $2500, figuring in that great 27 inch monitor with 2560x1440 res it works out about the same price if you were to get a simlar monitor for the PC. OR you can put 16GB and the same SSD in a Mac Mini for under $1400. Both options will easily give you the 60+ tracks you want. Also you get Thunderbolt for an option for faster external hard drives and when it switches to optical either late this year or next year, you're set.

On top of that you can also install Windows and run Cubase there.

Don't buy a Mac Pro. It's still fast but you'll want the newer ports options.

[BassDuck]

I personally wouldn't go with a 3770K on the 1155 socket, just for the fact it's EOL and that is the last processor they will me manufacturing on that socket. If you're not budget constrained, I would suggest a 3820 quad or even a 3930K 6 core processor on the X79 LGA 2011 chipset, It will run you about 600$ more for the system but in 2-3 years when they release the last processor for the chipset, you don't have to buy a new mother board to upgrade, you can just upgrade your processor and your good to skip a generation or 2!! Not to mention it utilizes Quad channel Ram

[norbury brook]

good point, however Scott at ADK said the new X79 mobo's were proving tricky to set up and didn't recommend them as a DIY build.

An OC'd 2600k/1155 system is a lot cheaper and although EOL it's a known good DIY stable machine.

$600 would buy you your new motherboard and ram anyway in the future so you're not really saving in the long run.


MC

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by glowlander

Macs are great because they are nearly impermeable to viruses.

This is such a load of rubbish.. Which i dont doubt started through Apple marketing in an effort to appear more advanced and keep charging rip off prices for their hardware..

The reason macs arent attacked to the degree of PCs is because a hackers intention is to do the largest amount of damage not the smallest, it's the natural outcome from economy of scale. Why would someone sit there and invest all their time into writing a mac virus if it only has the absolute best potential to affect less than 5% of everyone who uses a computer ? Not to mention large corporations and governments often use windows for networking and they are the targets of such attacks..

I can ackonwledge the end result is still what you want, less people attacking you.. But its a case of being less of a target (from being less popular) nothing to do with Apples ability to write more secure software..

[ssl_ambition]

Thanks for all the inputs. I think a hackintosh offers me Logic, Cubase and ProTools on one machine and flexibility for customers.

The main thing I would like to know is if you recommend to get a 6core over an 8core? I red that a single processors outperform two quads. As said, I'm not computer parts hero and I really don't know.

Loads of processor hungry VI's on 70+ tracks for scoring tasks should be no issue with the setup.

Thanks.

[Khazul]

Can work well either way - depends very much on the software you are running.

A dual CPU rig will of course be much more expensive.

Otherwise - for cubase - then it runs better on Windows 7/64 than OSX, so PC is the best choice and the only workstation option in the apple camp is a mac pro which are very expensive. If you are doing a self build - pay good attension to your choice of power supply, case, cooling, air flow paths etc - dont skimp on these. Personally I dont think that most cases are well designed for quiet reliable long life - so I tend to built with excess intake fans on the front via air filters - the idea being to ensure air pressure in the machine is higher than ambient to keep dust out.

[BassDuck]

Like Khazul said, a dual processor sytem will be MUCH more expensive, In order to run a dual processor system you have to get XEONS, the new 8 core processor on the 603/2011 socket is 1800$ FOR ONE, no overclocking options. Right now I'm running a 3930k 6 core on the 2011 socket Overclocked to 4.7 ghz It benchmarks substantially higher than a single 8 core processor for $599. Xeon processors use less power and are more reliable hence server grade, but IMO if your gonna spend that much money on processors, get a cheaper computer system and stuff it full of HD cards. If your system dies which it wont, you have manufacturer warranty plus you could replace your entire system for the cost of 1 xeon processor.

IMO the 2011 socket is much easier to build, I just built one! They have a back plate because they assume your gonna be using aftermarket cooling, so it's really just like putting together some lego with a lot fewer parts. my system runs stable both Windows and OSX, the only issue is my USB 3 doesn't work in OSX because of the AsMedia controller onboard but that's such a small issue I don't even have any usb 3 devices.

[ssl_ambition]

Originally Posted by BassDuck

IMO the 2011 socket is much easier to build, I just built one! They have a back plate because they assume your gonna be using aftermarket cooling, so it's really just like putting together some lego with a lot fewer parts. my system runs stable both Windows and OSX, the only issue is my USB 3 doesn't work in OSX because of the AsMedia controller onboard but that's such a small issue I don't even have any usb 3 devices.

Haha... Lego. Can you recommend me a system especiall HDs, Drives, Case and Cooler which are absolutely quiet? The last computer I bought was marketed as super silent and almost no noise but the thing sounds like a hurrican to me.

@Khazul
Yeah, 8core seems to be more expensive of course. But is it worth the bucks? I mean does it really make that much a difference or isn't it somewise that a 6core can outperform the 8core?

Originally Posted by Flagfoot

I agree that if you use a PC, it's more reliable off the internet.

I can only agree here. Used one for years of the internet. This one is on the internet since a year and already shows up some bad stuff.

[The Byre]

There is absolutely no difference between the two.

If you compare like with like (same RAM, same processor, same video RAM, etc.) you almost EXACTLY the same performance.

As for reliability, yes, back in the days of Windows 98, Macs were more stable, but today there really is no difference. Windows 7 really is very stable.

As for capacity, I can run 48 tracks on my grotty and cheap (Windows) laptop with just 4GB of RAM and all the plugs running with no sign of a glitch, so you don't need to lash out on some massive system.

BUT

If you want a nice simple clean solution with a minimum of clutter, just get an iMac. The display is really better than just about everything else out there, you can run Logic on it and it just looks nicer!

And it's quiet!

[composer]

Originally Posted by ebulb

This is such a load of rubbish.. Which i dont doubt started through Apple marketing in an effort to appear more advanced and keep charging rip off prices for their hardware..

The reason macs arent attacked to the degree of PCs is because a hackers intention is to do the largest amount of damage not the smallest, it's the natural outcome from economy of scale. Why would someone sit there and invest all their time into writing a mac virus if it only has the absolute best potential to affect less than 5% of everyone who uses a computer ? Not to mention large corporations and governments often use windows for networking and they are the targets of such attacks..

I can ackonwledge the end result is still what you want, less people attacking you.. But its a case of being less of a target (from being less popular) nothing to do with Apples ability to write more secure software..

I know some people that work st the stores. The macs with the daily d's ( pep talk b4 opening) and where you sign in for your shift DOES HAVE SNTI VIRUS SOFTWARE in what they call BOH or back of house and when a new is comes out, they don't install it on thise machines for st least 6 months. If you want proof go to any apple store and say you know someone that works at another store, (even if u don't) and why the anti virus and long delay of new OSon the DAILY D machines. Then they will know you know someone.

Still mi have many macs. No virus protection here. Just little snitch as I don't like programs phoning home especially in production. Just put NEVER FOREVER!!!

Peace and Godspeed!!!-!!!!!-!!!-!-!-!-!!!-!-!-!!!-!-!!!-!-!!!!!-!-!

[BassDuck]

Originally Posted by ssl_ambition

Haha... Lego. Can you recommend me a system especiall HDs, Drives, Case and Cooler which are absolutely quiet? The last computer I bought was marketed as super silent and almost no noise but the thing sounds like a hurrican to me.

Antec P280 is an awesome case, VERY quite, the fans that come with it are VERY quite, with my H100 it's silent at idle, when I run prime 95 to stress test my OC settings, the H100 does get audible cause my processor jumps to 65 degrees, other than that I barely hear the thing. If you don't plan on overclocking you can grab one of the Zalman CNPS heat sinks (Case Noise Prevention System) you wont hear a thing. The drive bays are attached via rubber grommets so you don't hear them at all either.

[ssl_ambition]

Originally Posted by The Byre

As for capacity, I can run 48 tracks on my grotty and cheap (Windows) laptop with just 4GB of RAM and all the plugs running with no sign of a glitch, so you don't need to lash out on some massive system.

48tracks with VI of EWQL, NI, VSL and other process hungry stuff.... work on your laptop?

Originally Posted by The Byre

If you want a nice simple clean solution with a minimum of clutter, just get an iMac. The display is really better than just about everything else out there, you can run Logic on it and it just looks nicer!
And it's quiet!

Well do you use 60 tracks all with VI (orchestra libraries)?
Another scenario is a pop production with 40 tracks VI and 20 audio and a Delay Plugin etc. here and there. I've no clue about how fast iMacs are. Can you do such things with your iMac and still have ressources?

Originally Posted by BassDuck

Antec P280 is an awesome case, VERY quite, the fans that come with it are VERY quite, with my H100 it's silent at idle, when I run prime 95 to stress test my OC settings, the H100 does get audible cause my processor jumps to 65 degrees, other than that I barely hear the thing. If you don't plan on overclocking you can grab one of the Zalman CNPS heat sinks (Case Noise Prevention System) you wont hear a thing. The drive bays are attached via rubber grommets so you don't hear them at all either.

Bassduck, how old is your setup? It looks pretty similar to what I need...

Ok, let's sum up of the best what you've experienced can recommend and works together:


Case
Antec P280


Cooler
Hydro Series H100 Extreme Performance or Zalman CNPS (not really plan overclocking)


Processor
3930K 6 core processor (guess it's this one Intel Core i7-3930K BX80619i73930K)


RAM
32GB Corsair XMS3 RAM (what kind of RAM is best DDR3 or SDRAM?)


Mainboard
DP67BGB3 Motherboard


HDs (quiet, quiet, quiet), NI Komplete alone is 240GB and on a separate HD. The SSD's are too expensive to add all VI's. Still good for the OS?
SSD for win7/64, Virtual Instruments and Projects:
Extern HD for Backup (got various already)

[Bassmankr]

Instead of buying expensive stuff to try and make any computer quiet how about just buying longer cables and putting the computer where it belongs in a studio . . . in the machine room, another room, or closet at the least for the bedroom guys (hopefully in the next bedroom closet over as it's not hard to make a small hole in drywall to pass cables through). Thus if a studio computer is where it belongs in the first place no one will see whether it's a PC/Mac or what it's housed in (use a "Hello Kitty" case if you want). The use of SSD hard drives will only load a program faster and thus serve little use for DAW's (already threads on this here to look up) so it's wasted money. Convert your old box for internet use or just pick up a $200 laptop for that purpose and keep your DAW OFF THE NET as there is no good reason to ever expose that box to risk.

Yes Macs get net viruses and malware too so don't be an idiot on the net whatever platform you choose

Mac malware infection rates remaining constant | MacFixIt - CNET Reviews

[BassDuck]

Originally Posted by ssl_ambition

Bassduck, how old is your setup? It looks pretty similar to what I need...

Ok, let's sum up of the best what you've experienced can recommend and works together:


Case
Antec P280


Cooler
Hydro Series H100 Extreme Performance or Zalman CNPS (not really plan overclocking)


Processor
3930K 6 core processor (guess it's this one Intel Core i7-3930K BX80619i73930K)


RAM
32GB Corsair XMS3 RAM (what kind of RAM is best DDR3 or SDRAM?)


Mainboard
DP67BGB3 Motherboard


HDs (quiet, quiet, quiet), NI Komplete alone is 240GB and on a separate HD. The SSD's are too expensive to add all VI's. Still good for the OS?
SSD for win7/64, Virtual Instruments and Projects:
Extern HD for Backup (got various already)

I've had my system for less than a month, as far as the specs you listed, you gotta make sure you grab an X79 LGA2011 Mainbaord (I would suggest P9X79 WS If you have the funds.) you have a P67 Mainboard Listed. I have a SSD for my OS, Software & Refills/VST's It's nice and speedy but it is un necessary. Take a look at the 10000 RPM Velociraptors by Western Digital I believe you can pick up a 1TB for about 350$ CDN those are great session & sample bank drives.

[login]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Anyhow, the MP case is a really elegant, resonant design. (And I say elegant with a straight faced since I've convinced myself that the 'handles' serve the purpose of keeping the thing off the floor -- heat dissipation -- and discouraging the user from sitting things on top of it.)

IMHO while the MP have a very elegant cabinet design you can find some quite good ones in the pc realm:

[chk23]

Originally Posted by VastArray

AFAIK there are no 8 or 12 core Ivy Bridge boards. I think those macs with all those cores are for transcoding high def video, or to run a server on. There's a 6 core Sandy Bridge if you must...

You can go for a dual-Xenon board, like Apple does - but there's no need to, according to several different benchmarks and hands-on articles I found on the web, you can beat those 12 core power macs with an overclocked Core-i7 3930K system - or at least get level with them. I'm about to upgrade my windows machine with a 3930K, which will cost me about 750€, including a new motherboard, CPU, cooler and 16GB RAM - the same performance with a power mac would have cost me 4000€ at least...

[DAW PLUS]

Sorry for not contributing to the topic, but I really would like to congratulate everyone for not turning this thread into another OS war.

Carry on...

[Kane]

Originally Posted by The Byre

There is absolutely no difference between the two.

If you compare like with like (same RAM, same processor, same video RAM, etc.) you almost EXACTLY the same performance.

What a load of rubbish. I've got a Hackintosh here that I run Windows 7 and OsX on daily. On the SAME PROJECTS I get at least double the performance running under Windows than Osx (although I prefer OsX). And this is across a range of cross platform applications and plugins.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by login

IMHO while the MP have a very elegant cabinet design you can find some quite good ones in the pc realm:

Under the desk for those guys!

That said, even if I did build a PC into one of the elegant and stylish MP cases, it would still go under the desk. It's simply the best place for it. Out of sight, out of the way, no direct line to my ear which cuts down on what little fan noise there is on my current 6 year old Dell (which has one a spectacularly unattractive -- but highly practical -- case, with huge ventilation holes in the side).

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Kane

What a load of rubbish. I've got a Hackintosh here that I run Windows 7 and OsX on daily. On the SAME PROJECTS I get at least double the performance running under Windows than Osx (although I prefer OsX). And this is across a range of cross platform applications and plugins.

What's most interesting about this post is that it's in response to another Windows user. [Who I suspect may have been saying the two platforms were about the same in the interests of cross-platform collegiality and politeness. While Kane splits that social difference his own way, allowing that there are big performance gains from Win, but saying he likes OSX better.]


Not the entire answer, but the DAWbench test result suites add some specificity to our knowledge of what DAWs get the most out of what OS's. DAW Bench : DAW Performance Benchmarking