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bitmob
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29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
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Apollo firewire issues / performance issues

So far this Apollo Quad has been a bit of a pain in the ass. It sounds great from what I've used of it and it feels like a solid piece of gear, but I've had nothing but hiccups since plugging it in.

I've noticed I've had to drastically increase my HW buffer size in PT using the same amount of plug-ins that prior to the Apollo weren't even close to taxing my system. Luckily I'm mixing right now and have no need additional tracking, which is impossible @ 1024ms.

I'm also receiving this error from the UAD software:
A firewire connection has changed, or the maximum available bandwidth on the firewire bus has been exceeded. (T01)

I'm not using any UAD plug-ins at the moment. I'm also working off of my internal drive with no instruments or software running off of the external firewire HDD's currently plugged in. Has anyone else experienced this issue? The overall system performance seems sluggish and for a fairly new 8-core Mac Pro with 24GB of ram, I shouldn't be having any issues.
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29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
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This probably falls under the category of things you've already investigated, but I'll mention it just in case.

When I first got my Apollo, I was experiencing the very same issues as you. My problem was that, at the time, I only had a FW400 card in my computer. I bought one of the recommended FW800 cards, and since then things have been golden. Even if you do have a FW800 connection on your computer, you should check the UAD Apollo Support page, as they list several models of Macs with FW800 interfaces that are known to connect only at FW400 speeds. You can double check this in the in UAD Control Panel app, as it will list the actual FW bandwidth you are connecting with.

With the FW400 card in my computer, I could never set the HW buffer to less than 1024 without getting pops and crackles, and I could never set the FW allocation to the Apollo any higher than about 30% before I would get the error message you mentioned. Since installing the FW800 card, I still have to be careful about the HW buffer size (I have to set it marginally higher than any other interface I've used), but I can nearly max out the FW bandwidth to the Apollo and never get the error message. I run out of DSP long before I run out of FW bandwidth.

Just my experience. If anyone has any tips or suggestions about the HW buffer size, I'd sure like to hear about it.
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29th April 2012
Old 29th April 2012
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fw bandwidth

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElMatto View Post
This probably falls under the category of things you've already investigated, but I'll mention it just in case.

When I first got my Apollo, I was experiencing the very same issues as you. My problem was that, at the time, I only had a FW400 card in my computer. I bought one of the recommended FW800 cards, and since then things have been golden. Even if you do have a FW800 connection on your computer, you should check the UAD Apollo Support page, as they list several models of Macs with FW800 interfaces that are known to connect only at FW400 speeds. You can double check this in the in UAD Control Panel app, as it will list the actual FW bandwidth you are connecting with.

With the FW400 card in my computer, I could never set the HW buffer to less than 1024 without getting pops and crackles, and I could never set the FW allocation to the Apollo any higher than about 30% before I would get the error message you mentioned. Since installing the FW800 card, I still have to be careful about the HW buffer size (I have to set it marginally higher than any other interface I've used), but I can nearly max out the FW bandwidth to the Apollo and never get the error message. I run out of DSP long before I run out of FW bandwidth.

Just my experience. If anyone has any tips or suggestions about the HW buffer size, I'd sure like to hear about it.

Hi Elmato,

I think you nailed the suggestion, only references to problems I have seen are due to running 400.

I like you have choked my dsp on a quad (deliberately) b4 I ran out of bandwidth .

kcat
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30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
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I've checked all of the above and still have issues unfortunately. Everything is fine plugging in an Apogee Ensemble, or even using the PT aggregate I/O. It seems this thing is just choking up the system like crazy.
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30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitmob View Post
I've checked all of the above and still have issues unfortunately. Everything is fine plugging in an Apogee Ensemble, or even using the PT aggregate I/O. It seems this thing is just choking up the system like crazy.
Have you done this?
" I bought one of the recommended FW800 cards"
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30th April 2012
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From the UAD site:

"Mac Pro FireWire Ports

Mac Pro systems have FireWire ports on the front and rear of the computer. For optimum performance with Mac Pro systems, connect Apollo to a FireWire port on the rear of the Mac Pro instead of the front."

I'm sure it would help but I doubt it's necessary to buy a new card. I find it hard to believe UA is so terrible as to ask their consumers to buy new FW800 adapters to add to their brand new Mac Pro 5,1's (assuming we even have room for it) because they failed to achieve compatibility with one of the most popular DAW platforms. It's compatible according to their website and if it was a major issue with Mac Pros I'd assume there would be more than one thread about it. Still awaiting official responses from UA support, but I'll post my findings once I do. I'm going to be incredibly disappointed if I have to use up card space for a device that is supposed to be the answer to PCIe-based DSP.
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30th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitmob View Post
From the UAD site:

"Mac Pro FireWire Ports

Mac Pro systems have FireWire ports on the front and rear of the computer. For optimum performance with Mac Pro systems, connect Apollo to a FireWire port on the rear of the Mac Pro instead of the front."

I'm sure it would help but I doubt it's necessary to buy a new card. I find it hard to believe UA is so terrible as to ask their consumers to buy new FW800 adapters to add to their brand new Mac Pro 5,1's (assuming we even have room for it) because they failed to achieve compatibility with one of the most popular DAW platforms. It's compatible according to their website and if it was a major issue with Mac Pros I'd assume there would be more than one thread about it. Still awaiting official responses from UA support, but I'll post my findings once I do. I'm going to be incredibly disappointed if I have to use up card space for a device that is supposed to be the answer to PCIe-based DSP.
Why what that be terrible of UA if Apple puts a sub-par firewire chipset/controller in their computers.... UA did the research and found out, and gave you up front the tip you will probably need to get more than one type of Audio Interface to work well on firewire with your Mac?? P.s. It's the same with most PC's.
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30th April 2012
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It's a matter of working towards compatibility with an important part of your market. Every other FW800 device I've used doesn't seem to have an issue in the slightest. It could very well be a cheap chip they use (can't seem to find that info), but they should know their market well enough to realize the importance of making their products perfectly compatible with Mac users. Believe me when I say you're hard pressed to find anyone who's more anti-Apple than me, so don't chock this up to fanboyism.

This is assuming the FW chip is the problem at all and not a faulty device or some other bug, which I'm still waiting to hear back on.
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30th April 2012
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I had issues when I first tried to run my Apollo and my Motu from separate firewire ports on my Mac Pro. I then connected my Apollo to may Mac FW800, my Satellite to my Apollo FW800, and my Motu to my Satellite via FW400. I am only using my Motu as a converter for my hardware synths and running it via ADAT to my Apollo. No issues now.

Does your Apollo work without any other FW equipment connected to your Mac?
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30th April 2012
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If all it takes to have a pain-free ass is to buy a card and get a big performance increase to boot....i'd be running to the store! Don't know about mac pro but when I had a g5 the firewire ports were all on the same bus and heavy external disc load would cause audio dropouts-bought a fw card and all was good. Spend a few buck$ and enjoy your rig!

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30th April 2012
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What I would do:

1. Make sure my Protools Session is on a diff drive inside the Mac and not the main OS drive
2. Hook up the Apollo to the rear FW800 port, dont have any other FW device but it hooked up for now as well
3. Check and see in the UA UAD Control Panel app, as it will list the actual FW bandwidth you are connecting with and make sure it says FW800, if not get one of the recommended cards for the Apollo
4. In Protools make sure its not using all 8 cores, set it to 7 or 6 and NOT 8

Try those and report back. This is concerning for me as I have an 8 core as well, current version Mac

*BOTH FW ports on the Mac are on the same buss form what I can rememeber
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30th April 2012
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Now THAT I had no clue about. I've been on the dual core extreme processors for years now and this is the first time I've used more than two cores. I did notice it came up with 16 processors (assuming that's on account of hyper threading), so I'll make sure to drop it down to 12 or 14 and see how that works out. I'll have to read up a little more on that.

Bandwidth is listed as 800. I unplugged all of the other FW devices, but I'm wondering if perhaps I'm having the same issue you had with the Motu with the Virus TI2? I'll definitely report back once I go over it again in the next couple of days and I should have a response from UA support by then as well.
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30th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitmob View Post
I'm going to be incredibly disappointed if I have to use up card space for a device that is supposed to be the answer to PCIe-based DSP.
This unit was never intended to run anywhere near its potential under FW800 , the unit requires Thunderbolt to have any chance of approaching performance of PCIe.

Having said that, if in the interim all that is required to get some usability is a qualified 3rd party FW800 PCIe card, then you really have nothing to lose.

Keep your fingers crossed for a PCIe TB card in future.

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30th April 2012
Old 30th April 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe View Post
Why what that be terrible of UA if Apple puts a sub-par firewire chipset/controller in their computers.... UA did the research and found out, and gave you up front the tip you will probably need to get more than one type of Audio Interface to work well on firewire with your Mac?? P.s. It's the same with most PC's.

You do realise the OP is talking about a mac pro, which has a high end TI firewire 800 chipset! It ain't *that* that's the problem.

My bet is driver revision 1.0000 is the issue
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2nd May 2012
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It's taking me a little longer to get this figured out than I expected. I wanted to make sure there wasn't an issue with the Mac Pro itself, but we have the unfortunate model that removed AHT diagnostics altogether and the workarounds aren't helping. I snagged a copy of Apple's ASD today and will hopefully have more info tomorrow.

Driver revision for the FW - is that something I can install? I couldn't seem to find any info on it.
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2nd May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
My bet is driver revision 1.0000 is the issue
I would tend to agree.

I mentioned this issue in a March 2012 thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason West View Post
UA Apollo should not be considered at all until word on the street says the software implementation (both the firmware and operating system drivers) are rock solid stable... unless you like paying thousands of dollars to beta test software fixes and not get any work done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kcatthedog View Post
Hey Jason, you make a good point about new gear and reliability. Certainly a factor to consider.

I don't work for UA just an amateur recorder singer songwriter but I think the UA engineering quality and quality-control speak for themselves.
To me, UAD has expertise in PCIe cards. This doesn't guarantee that they'll deliver rock solid Firewire solutions. Difference competencies involved. Maybe they will; maybe they won't. Time will tell if this is a UA issue or a Mac Pro is ultimately to blame.
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26th May 2012
Old 26th May 2012
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AES, Madi, or possibly Thunderbolt, won't touch firewire.
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20th June 2012
Old 20th June 2012
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Some info I recently dug up regarding how to best use the front and rear Firewire ports on the Mac Pro:

From Macworld:

"It’s worth noting that if you've got both FireWire 400 and 800 devices, you should put your FireWire 400 devices at the end of your FireWire chain, connecting FireWire 800 devices directly to your Mac and to each other. Putting FireWire 400 devices in between your Mac and your 800 devices will reduce the performance of the latter."

I believe RME, IIR, also made similar recommendations regarding chaining of drives to their firewire interface units.

Looking at the attached chart I found elsewhere, you can see that the front ports on the Mac Pro are placed in series after the rear port, hence why UA recommends using the rear port for the Satellite and Apollo Firewire 800 connection; if you plug a Firewire 400 device in one of the other ports, the Apollo will throttle down to 400 speed, since this configuration puts the 400 device in between the UA device and the computer. Plugging Firewire 800 devices in the back eliminates the chance of a Firewire 400 drive or device slowing it down. I suspect the Apollo and Satellite would work fine on the front ports so long as you don't plan on plugging in ANY 400 speed Firewire drives to the computer (notwithstanding any typical FW buss saturation issues).

Confusing? yes indeed...
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Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-macpro2.jpg  
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13th July 2012
Old 13th July 2012
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Hey guys,

I got my Apollo Quad today and I am experiencing the same problem.

When the Apollo is connected without any external FW800 Hard Drives connected, it runs perfectly without any error messages. As soon as I connect my hard drives to either front or rear FW800 ports, I get that same message and it keeps popping up every 2-3 seconds.

I don't mind buying a PCIe FW card, as long as i know that it's gonna solve the problem.

Any idea what else could be the reason?
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13th July 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe View Post
Why what that be terrible of UA if Apple puts a sub-par firewire chipset/controller in their computers....
Bullocks. Why doesn't that subpar FW controller affect MOTU/Metric Halo/RME/Avid/M-Audio products?

FWIW, in the SOS review Hugh Robjohns found that he couldn't use it at anything lower than 192 samples without crackle'n'pop. And that was on a 12-core MacPro.

OP (and others in this thread) seems to corroborate that.

I run at 128 samples all day long on a modest '09 quadcore with my MboxPro. That's FW400 by the way.

Stable and efficient low-latency operation should be a given when you pony up $2000 for an interface.
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27th July 2012
Old 27th July 2012
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I got an Apollo quad about one month ago. Connected to the rear firewire port of a 2009 Mac Pro 8 x 2.8 ghz cores, 12 GB RAM (800 mhz), no problems. Then, last week, I got hold of a faster Mac Pro, actually 8 x 2.66 ghz cores, but the 2010 model with faster RAM (16 GB 1066 mhz). So I swapped out all my drives and cards to the new machine, hooked up the Apollo, and have had very frequent and totally unpredictable losses of communication between the Apollo and the computer (-38 error). I have no other firewire devices hooked up. I tried removing all PCIe card (except for the graphics card, which is an ATI 5770 swapped from the older machine). I still get these drop outs, totally randomly, and it has nothing to do with my DAW (Logic), because it happens even without Logic running - sometimes even 10 minutes after a cold boot. I tried three different firewire cables. I tried reducing the firewire allocation. Nothing helps. I just ordered a firewire card, maybe I have a bad FW bus in this computer. I have spoken to UA twice regarding this. Each time they are able to get me operational, but the problem comes back randomly. I thought it had something to do with sleep settings (it will definitely lose communication if the computer goes to sleep), but I have it set not to sleep or allow hard drives to sleep. Very frustrating.
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29th August 2012
Old 29th August 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jweisbin View Post
I got an Apollo quad about one month ago. Connected to the rear firewire port of a 2009 Mac Pro 8 x 2.8 ghz cores, 12 GB RAM (800 mhz), no problems. Then, last week, I got hold of a faster Mac Pro, actually 8 x 2.66 ghz cores, but the 2010 model with faster RAM (16 GB 1066 mhz). So I swapped out all my drives and cards to the new machine, hooked up the Apollo, and have had very frequent and totally unpredictable losses of communication between the Apollo and the computer (-38 error). I have no other firewire devices hooked up. I tried removing all PCIe card (except for the graphics card, which is an ATI 5770 swapped from the older machine). I still get these drop outs, totally randomly, and it has nothing to do with my DAW (Logic), because it happens even without Logic running - sometimes even 10 minutes after a cold boot. I tried three different firewire cables. I tried reducing the firewire allocation. Nothing helps. I just ordered a firewire card, maybe I have a bad FW bus in this computer. I have spoken to UA twice regarding this. Each time they are able to get me operational, but the problem comes back randomly. I thought it had something to do with sleep settings (it will definitely lose communication if the computer goes to sleep), but I have it set not to sleep or allow hard drives to sleep. Very frustrating.
Followup: the computer completely died a few weeks later and I went back to my old one. The tech said it was a bad battery on the mobo. I decided to stick with my current setup which is trouble free.
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2nd February 2013
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Hello (first post in this forum)

I'm adding myself to the list, i have the same problem with my iMac (Quad Core i5 3,1 GHz from mid 2011 so supposed to be a quite recent one with a real FW 800 effective port..) OSX.8.2 and Presonus Studio One 2.5, and an UA Apollo Duo..

i've contact the UA support but they didn't gave me a real and understandable answer to this problem (error -98/ error -50)..
on the UA Apollo support page they talk about a Thunderbolt/ FW 800 adapter as a valid option for Apollo connexion..my iMac has 2 Thunderbolt ports and one FW 800 port..so i thought i might have an extra solution to free the FW ports of the Apollo..but it didn't help to solve the problem..
i've tried all connexions and bandwidth options..at the moment the Apollo is connected through the FW/Thunderbolt to the iMac no hard disk in the Apollo Ports..

The sample rate on Studio One is set on 48 and 32 bit Float..but for the moment, i don't see any workable solutions..
i will try another option..use the Apollo Plugs in the UA console only and see what's happen..

If somebody with a similar configuration has found a workable solution, any help will be welcome..

Regards,

Jehm
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2nd February 2013
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same here! and no response from universal audio...
when comes the new drivers???

i`m running osx 10.7.5 on a early mac pro 2008 with 16gig ram. no firewire connections used except apollo!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-1.png   Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-2.png   Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-3.png   Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-4.png   Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-5.png  

Apollo firewire issues / performance issues-apollo-lost-connection-6.png  
#25
3rd February 2013
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Hello Nott,

Thanks for your helpful screen shots..as i see, we have the same problem, i have 12 Go Ram in my iMac..at the moment, i'm running the UA 6.4.1 Mac beta version i though it might help to reduce or solve the problem but it didn't..

i'm wondering about the FW 800 global Bandwidth..when the Apollo is connected to the computer the required amount of bandwidth is concerning only the connected FW port or the entire FW computer bandwidth?..an answer to this question might help for a better understanding of this interface..

My bank and instruments disk is connected in the FW 800 port of my Mac, and the Apollo is linked in the Thunderbolt port via the Apple FW 800 adapter (this option is valid and written on the Apollo Support page) that configuration is supposed to let the Apollo free of any additional connexions..but the problem is still there..

Can't help to think about the price i've paid for a "working" Professionnal audio interface and i can't even use one single plug-in..this is a quite frustrating situation, i hope UA will release quickly a fonctionnal update for the Apollo..if not..it will be difficult to don't wonder about a kind of insidious way to force the users to buy the optional Thunderbolt card..i will prefer to stay positive but at the moment..i'm loosing my time and my work with this audio interface..
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3rd February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehm View Post
Hello Nott,

Thanks for your helpful screen shots..as i see, we have the same problem, i have 12 Go Ram in my iMac..at the moment, i'm running the UA 6.4.1 Mac beta version i though it might help to reduce or solve the problem but it didn't..

i'm wondering about the FW 800 global Bandwidth..when the Apollo is connected to the computer the required amount of bandwidth is concerning only the connected FW port or the entire FW computer bandwidth?..an answer to this question might help for a better understanding of this interface..

My bank and instruments disk is connected in the FW 800 port of my Mac, and the Apollo is linked in the Thunderbolt port via the Apple FW 800 adapter (this option is valid and written on the Apollo Support page) that configuration is supposed to let the Apollo free of any additional connexions..but the problem is still there..

Can't help to think about the price i've paid for a "working" Professionnal audio interface and i can't even use one single plug-in..this is a quite frustrating situation, i hope UA will release quickly a fonctionnal update for the Apollo..if not..it will be difficult to don't wonder about a kind of insidious way to force the users to buy the optional Thunderbolt card..i will prefer to stay positive but at the moment..i'm loosing my time and my work with this audio interface..
yesterday my apollo lost every 15-20 minutes the connection to the computer. it was strange: only the apollo dsps were disconnected - the apollo audiohardware worked.
i tried all without any results.

i made my decision to turn off the apollo and worked again with my good old motu interface.
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3rd February 2013
Old 3rd February 2013
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Interesting reading. I can't really help, except to say I had terrible problems trying to share a fw port between a Lynx Aurora and a hard drive. That was the main reason I switched to Apollo.
Now I'm using an i7 2012 3.4ghz iMac, with Apollo on the FireWire and a LaCie 2 Big drive on the tb port.
It's been running smoothly for almost a year. No tech issues, no problems with plug-ins.
I'll eventually get the tb card for Apollo, but at he moment it's all good so I don't need to.
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3rd February 2013
Old 3rd February 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehm View Post
Hello Nott,

Thanks for your helpful screen shots..as i see, we have the same problem, i have 12 Go Ram in my iMac..at the moment, i'm running the UA 6.4.1 Mac beta version i though it might help to reduce or solve the problem but it didn't..

i'm wondering about the FW 800 global Bandwidth..when the Apollo is connected to the computer the required amount of bandwidth is concerning only the connected FW port or the entire FW computer bandwidth?..an answer to this question might help for a better understanding of this interface..

My bank and instruments disk is connected in the FW 800 port of my Mac, and the Apollo is linked in the Thunderbolt port via the Apple FW 800 adapter (this option is valid and written on the Apollo Support page) that configuration is supposed to let the Apollo free of any additional connexions..but the problem is still there..

Can't help to think about the price i've paid for a "working" Professionnal audio interface and i can't even use one single plug-in..this is a quite frustrating situation, i hope UA will release quickly a fonctionnal update for the Apollo..if not..it will be difficult to don't wonder about a kind of insidious way to force the users to buy the optional Thunderbolt card..i will prefer to stay positive but at the moment..i'm loosing my time and my work with this audio interface..
which uad plugins do you use usually in your sessions??
maybe the fw issues comes from specific uad plugins?!!
#29
4th February 2013
Old 4th February 2013
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#30
4th February 2013
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Just a random question, but why would you want to bring your buffer size down during tracking with the Apollo? That's kind of the point of the UA Console ... you can keep it at 512 or 1024 in your DAW, keep all your plugins enabled, and still get zero latency tracking through the software mixer.

Took me a while to wrap my head around this, but once I did, it all made sense.
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maks / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
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