A good 88 full weighted key MIDI controller, with many velocity levels and USB?

[Dean Landon]

Originally Posted by LPP

THESE rule the Hollywood film score world. Expensive, but probably the best thing out there. I think there are a couple cheaper options from Doepfer, but how cheap I'm not sure.

Is there anyone in the States selling Doepfer keyboards?

[cinealta]

Not possible under $1K.

Best is Roland RD-700NX. Yamaha CP5 & Kawai MP10 are decent.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by _Ludovico

Yup, I did understand what you're explaining. But when I read the specs on different websites, it sometimes said soft/medium/hard and fixed velocity, so I thought some keyboards only offered three levels of velocity to hit samples.

So I'm guessing that low/medium/hard/fixed thing affects the way the whole keyboards reacts? Like if it was harder to hit samples stronger on the "high" mode and very easy to hit the strongest sample at the "low" setting?

Indeed - these keyboards still have a range of 0-127 for velocity, but how hard you have to hit to generate maximum velocity can be varied.

[fito_88]

Originally Posted by IHateMyUsername

Roland A-80. That's what I got. With both vertical and horizontal pitch bender. Used on ebay. Great feel. Just get a MIDI > USB cable, and start playing. It's a dinosaur.

im loving this keyboard, how much does it go used?

[gregor]

Originally Posted by Titans55

I'm not sure if this fits your exact needs, but i've been looking at getting the: m-audio oxygen 88

It features 88 velocity sensitive, fully weighted, hammer keys. Some reviews suggest that it feels really close to playing an actual acoustic piano (I have not used it yet, so can't personally comment on that)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "many levels of velocity". Are you referring to the way it reacts to the different levels of pressure your fingers express during a performance or are you referring to the number of different velocity curves the keyboard has?

No midi cable connections, only USB.

Brand new it's only $600 (via sweetwater)

I've never used this so if anyone on here has any person experience, I would really appreciate your feedback.


Thanks for this thread! I hope we can get a good list of all the available options so we can all see what's the best option for ourselves.

I've got an m-audio oxygen 88 and its a very good piece of kit. Solid build quality and some useful controllers for pro tools & logic. Allows for the setting of the velocity curve so you can set the level of how hard you have to hit the keys to trigger a certain velocity. Played a yamaha grand over the weekend and the feel is very similar. Have also had a Roland XV88 weighted and the it compares favorably with that.

[IHateMyUsername]

Originally Posted by fito_88

im loving this keyboard, how much does it go used?

Bought mine used from Wales for around 500£. Ended up costing a bit more, though. (Postage and taxes. It weighed almost 30kg with the hardcase!) Still, I'm very happy with it.

[kstevege]

Originally Posted by dbjp

Your quote from Steinberg is a completely different thing.

Any decent keyboard controller will always have 127 velocity points it can transmit to synths/samplers in midi format.
So that's out of the way !!

Be careful! Just because a keyboard has ability to transmit 127 velocity Points doesn't mean it will. The weakest link is the hammer action sensitivity on the keys. Don't be fooled by how good the hammer action feels. I used to own a studio logic SL990 -- Fatar manufactured keys
however no matter how soft or hard I hit the keys the damn keyboard was only able to register approx 20 zones of velocity. Thus the
mechanics of the hammer action was unable to register the entire 127
velocity resolution. To get around this most keyboards have velocity zone
settings which merely shifts the hammer inputs up or down depending on
your playing style. The only keyboard I am aware of that is able to
accurately register 127 levels of velocity is the Doepfer brand which
ironically, I believe, uses fatar hammer action as well.

So it is important to understand the difference between midi velocity of
127 (which every digital keyboard has) and the velocity resolution of
hammer action keys, which, to the best of my knowledge, pretty much
sucks across the board except for Doepfer brand.

Finally also understand the velocity layers of the actual recorded samples
that you are triggering.

Hope this clears things up.

[michaelb]

Reading a lot of strange things on this thread. I think I've been to about every studio of a A list composer here in los angeles and I see a ton of different keyboards, everything from Doepfer to M-Audio. Just wanted to chirp in as someone who is strongly familiar with MIDI ( I own cinesamples) and has a concert piano degree


You can listen to who you want but there is a great solution.

Akai MPK 88

There are five of us at sonicfuel using it - 5 of 9 composers. It is superb and a great value. You needn't spend the big bucks on this imo.

Good luck.

[Rakrum]

Thank you michael! That's some info that I've been looking for - what is "standard" (of course it's personal preference, but somebody has to come out on top...)

My issue is this - played it in the store, and after seeing your comment, I am ready to pull the trigger tomorrow - then I realized: when I'm playing an acoustic piano (I'm a composer, not a pianist) I almost always have the sustain pedal down, and that lightens the weight of the keys DRAMATICALLY (on the upright yamaha which is my favorite, personally)

So how could one foreseeably get sus.pianio action with MIDI?

Any thoughts on this one?

[LeafInTheWind]

I don't think i've seen any mention of the Yamaha CP33? Seems to be in the OP's price range, has USB connectivity - though I've not used the usb myself, using regular midi cables.

I think the weighted keybed is great for the price, has mod/pitch wheels too.

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by kstevege

Be careful! Just because a keyboard has ability to transmit 127 velocity Points doesn't mean it will. The weakest link is the hammer action sensitivity on the keys. Don't be fooled by how good the hammer action feels. I used to own a studio logic SL990 -- Fatar manufactured keys
however no matter how soft or hard I hit the keys the damn keyboard was only able to register approx 20 zones of velocity. Thus the
mechanics of the hammer action was unable to register the entire 127
velocity resolution

Absolutley!!

Studiologic Midi Keyboards

And from a review: "1-50 are good and pretty much all could be hit but after 50 it starts to skip. After 70 it gets horrible stepping the velocity curve by 5 (so would go 71 then 75 then 79). After 90 it skips by roughly 10. Of cause this also affects the aftertouch. Lastly to reach 127 it does require some finger strength to keep at it."

What would be really cool is if users of various hammer action keyboard controllers could post their velocity findings on here. This is a topic that is usually ignored, but if you are desiring good reaction, this is incredibly important.

Most posts here seem to be focused on the feel of the hammer action, number of controls, after-touch, and build quality. The velocity issue is one I never even considered until a user here mentioned the VMK-188's horrible velocity gaps. Then...after 2 years use it dawned on me as to why my piano velocities seemed....strange.

[champ]

Originally Posted by Titans55

I'm not sure if this fits your exact needs, but i've been looking at getting the: m-audio oxygen 88

If thats anything in the likes of the m-audio 88pro then its probably the worst advise you could give.
I had one and hated it.

[greggybud]

There is a reason M Audio is relatively inexpensive for 88 keys hammer action. If you think you got a bargain with M-Audio, then you might not be a very demanding user I suppose.

My favorite: (and difficult to find)
Oberheim MC3000

[michaelb]

Two other things:

1) even the best midi controllers need some type in the piano roll adjusting velocities
2) I would strongly advise against M-Audio, the quality is not up to par for performing. They are dandy for inputing though.

[loopy]

kstevege nailed it....

I'm a professional player, mostly jazz, and here is my advice.

Roland, Roland and Roland.........
Consistently the best IMHO.

Yamaha, very nice but have had problems reaching 127 in the past.
Too mushy an action for me.
Good second choice though as long as you can hit 127 with it.
KX88 is a real sleeper if you can find one in decent shape.

Fatar is great action, but they fall apart.
I've had several on the road with me and every single one of them had problems. They suck for quality control IMHO. hammers that fall apart is just one of their problems. The weights come unglued and rattle is another.

M-Audio..... Forget it... You get what you pay for.

Have not used any of the others.

[fito_88]

Originally Posted by loopy

M-Audio..... Forget it... You get what you pay for.

thats the point

[gregor]

Hi

Okay, for clarity's sake this is the M-Audio board I'm talking about :-
M-AUDIO - Oxygen 88 - 88-Key Graded Hammer-Action USB MIDI Controller

I also have a Yamaha Motif XF7 which has a synth action and is capable of a wider range of velocities. That said I think this is down to the mechanics of the thing ie. hammer action versus synth action. As mentioned earlier I had the Roland XV88 which was the forerunner to the Fantom and whilst that had a nice action, its "samples" were very clearly audible and typically about 3-4 per note. So its a bit academic having 127 velocities triggering 4 samples mixing and crossfading notwithstanding. Even 20 velocities is going to require a very nuanced player and a virtual instrument capable of accurately rendering those samples. The question is also whether one could walk up to a normal piano and get 20 distinct volumes out of one key ? 40, 100 ??? that were noticable to the ear.

So from the manual of the oxygen 88 in regards to velocity curves :-

1 = C1 is a sensitivity setting that generates lower velocity values for the same force. This setting is useful for playing more quietly, even if you tend to strike the keys harder.
2 = C2 is the default setting, and is designed to be useful for most players with an "average" touch (people who play with an average amount of force).
3 = C3 is a sensitivity setting that generates higher velocity values for the same force. This setting is useful for playing more loudly, even if you tend to strike the keys with less force.
4 = C4 is a sensitivity setting that generates an equal velocity value for a given amount of force, resulting in a linear (or neutral) keyboard response.

I'm away on business at the moment, but will check when I'm back at the board how many distinct velocities I can get out of it (digitally as opposed to audibly). Its not something I had noticed up until now where it was very obvious with the Roland. My understanding is that the newer generation of synth engines have 8 way velocity splits. As an aside the XF responds very nicely to both its own keyboard and the oxygen 88 because it produces a different set of overtones (in addition to the fundamental note) depending on how hard the keys are struck.

[gregor]

Originally Posted by _Ludovico

I might be confused a little about velocity. I read on some specs that some keyboards have low/medium/hard and fixed velocity. I thought that meant they only had like three levels of "power" at which one note can be played.

When I checked steinberg's "The Grand" specs, it says this :

Authentic sound quality

The Grand 3 delivers ultra dynamic response and hammer action with up to 20 different velocity samples for each key, faithfully capturing the full extent of every note’s envelope.

I'm a bit puzzled regarding this, I want a keyboard that will let me benefit from the said 20 levels of velocity.

Also, I don't really care for all the toys like faders and knobs, I can easily tweak that in the box...

All midi controllers generate a range of velocities between 0 and 127. So if you strike the key softly it might score 10 whereas if you strike very hard it might score 127. Whats being debated is whether they can all produce 127 distinct values. For the controller to be good enough to run with the grand it needs to be able to produce at least 20 different velocity values.

The low/medium/hard refers a velocity curve, so the board still has a range of 127 values, but what changes is how hard you have to strike a key to get a given value. If you played with the same force three times, on the low velocity setting it would score 10, on medium 20 and on hard 30. It might be helpful to think of it as sensitivity calibration.

[RyanC]

For less than 1k I don't think you can beat the new casio/privia. I have a Cdp-200 and IMO it is far and away the best action/velocity response in that price range, old kx88 is pretty good but it's pretty slow, even a 700sx or just 700 is pretty good as well but to me about on par with the cdp. If you were going to go a little over 1k, I would look at a used rd700gx or a FP-7f. IMO the PHAIII is the best game in town piano action/velo wise.

One thing to consider if you work with vocalists is that a digital piano model with built in speakers turns out to be incredibly handy in the studio.

[fito_88]

Originally Posted by RyanC

One thing to consider if you work with vocalists is that a digital piano model with built in speakers turns out to be incredibly handy in the studio.

or you might switch on the monitors while you are jamming with your vocalist i like your casio suggestion but it has the vertical pitch wheel which i HATE so its a deal breaker for me

[RyanC]

EDIT OH: vertical, not virtual, lol. Yeah, you like the joystick roland style?

Sure you can use a VI, but the advantage to me is that with someone in the booth, I can use the onboard sounds to learn the melody while they are tracking and check pitchy-ness, and then with talkback on (I use the massy plug so it's always on when playback stops), they can hear the notes from it just fine.

Also handy for times where something is rendering or printing and you just want to start warming up the next project etc. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but for me it has actually been.

EDIT: or maybe you mean monitors from built in sounds on a stage piano? That would probably work too...

[fito_88]

Originally Posted by RyanC

EDIT OH: vertical, not virtual, lol. Yeah, you like the joystick roland style?

Sure you can use a VI, but the advantage to me is that with someone in the booth, I can use the onboard sounds to learn the melody while they are tracking and check pitchy-ness, and then with talkback on (I use the massy plug so it's always on when playback stops), they can hear the notes from it just fine.

Also handy for times where something is rendering or printing and you just want to start warming up the next project etc. Doesn't seem like a big deal, but for me it has actually been.

EDIT: or maybe you mean monitors from built in sounds on a stage piano? That would probably work too...

ofcourse!! roland style all the way!!! i remember when i learned how to play music on a roland e500, i used to LOVE that keyboard the pitch bender in the nord wave is FANTASTIC too.. are you comfortable with the vertical bender?

[Bullseye]

I have used the yamaha cp33 both on its own and as a midi controller for various instruments and as an 88key controller for a 76 key Nord Stage. On its own the feel is pretty good. As a midi controller it has the same issue all midi controllers have. Its not so much the keybed but the nature of midi transmission that makes certain phrasing and dynamic passages a bit more challenging than they might be on a great Steinway or such.

I have also tried the Roland 700NX I believe is the model and this one really feels nice and is great at subtle response which is where allot of midi keyboards loose their effectiveness. I have not tried this Roland as a midi controller so I can't speak to that aspect of it.

I will say though that the CP33 is still a great keyboard for the price and for pianists makes a great and affordable piano controller. For now I don't see anything out there that is much better. I have not tried the MPK88 but I suspect it will be in the same ball park and ultimately, its a midi controller and the shortfalls of midi cannot be completely overcome no matter how good the keys feel or at least, that is how its seems.

Ultimately I would say that I have been able to play pretty accurate musical phrases on the CP33. I too have a degree in music and, as it turns out, I studied with one of the premier jazz piano teachers of all time way back in the 1970s. The teacher who was often recommended by Bill Evans who was a fan of this teachers particular ways and means.

So yeah, I do know something about how a piano should feel and sound and yet all this is just my opinion. You want something that works for you, go play it.

[Rakrum]

Roland just rolled out a new midi controller - A88 I think - and it uses the Ivory G keys found on their digital pianos (I don't know if it's the same as the VPiano...)

MSRP is listed as 999 but who knows what it will go for in stores - 88 hammer keys, joystick, and some buttons by the joystick (for programming it?). I think they're also making a 49 or 61 with good synth keys or semi weight, not sure. Worth looking into.

I ended up getting the MPK88 btw, and it transmits aftertouch signals even when not being played - now some of the buttons on the control surface are ghosting constantly, so it changes patches while I'm playing...... Sending this guy back - to take up my whole desk and weigh it down with 70 lbs, it sure as hell better work well, which it's not... Might be a defective unit, ymmv.

[greggybud]

The next time I look for a weighted 88 keyboard controller the FIRST question will focus on the velocity gaps.

This has absolutely nothing to do with adjusting the controller for your own velocity style.

It has everything to do with how the keyboard transmits your velocity sensitivity to the computer which will accept 127 settings.

As mentioned above good controllers will have maybe 20 different settings. That could be acceptable, however it really depends on how those gaps are spread out.

[awhitebeats]

Originally Posted by kkalnasy

+1

+2. We play the S90 at church thru a MKS 20!

[electro]

Roland CONNECT - A-88: MIDI Keyboard Controller

[Sky]

@Kstevege, great observations about the math beneath the action.

A few years ago I ran histograms for two 88 key controllers using Max. Once calibrated for my playing style, one had a smooth bell-shaped curve that covered the velocity range pretty well, while the other had gaps - somewhat chaotic and non-bell-like.

Interestingly, one of them transmitted every other velocity value, in other words, it actually had only 64 velocity levels stretched across the full 127. Not a huge deal from a performance standpoint, but not readily apparent in the product spec either.

With controllers I think it comes down to personal preference and making sure the action is well-tuned for one's playing preferences, while some controllers will make doing this easier than others.

Regards,
Sky

[greggybud]

Originally Posted by Sky

Interestingly, one of them transmitted every other velocity value, in other words, it actually had only 64 velocity levels stretched across the full 127. Not a huge deal from a performance standpoint, but not readily apparent in the product spec either.

Did you test this for 64 velocity levels yourself? What I'm asking is were you able to actually obtain 64 levels by hitting the same key multiple times but using different velocity? What is a histogram?

And what were the 2 88 keyboard controllers tested?

[Sky]

Originally Posted by greggybud

Did you test this for 64 velocity levels yourself? What I'm asking is were you able to actually obtain 64 levels by hitting the same key multiple times but using different velocity? What is a histogram?

And what were the 2 88 keyboard controllers tested?

The two keyboards I tested were Yamaha S90 and Roland RD600. It's been a few years and I don't recall exactly which was which.

Histograms are pretty cool actually. In Cycling 74 Max, I routed each controller output into a Max object that simply logged every MIDI NOTE IN and mapped it onto an X/Y chart, with X=Velocity and Y=# of times that velocity was played.

For each controller, I played the same live performance containing a variety of styles and saved each as its own chart. Over thousands of notes played, patterns started to emerge. The 64-level histogram literally was a bell-shaped curve with every other velocity level = 0. I had programmed the action of each controller to output a good distribution between 0 and 127 for my playing style.

I unfortunately cannot find my screen caps from these tests or I would be happy to share.

Sky