BFD and Roland V-drums.

[dolo]

have any one tried triggering bfd with the v-drums, and if so what was the results?


thanks,

dolo...

[Derrick Davis]

I trigger BFD with ddrum triggers with vdrum heads on real kit and alesis D5. The Alesis works good, but when you hook up to BFD it never does quite right.

My BFD is on a dual 1.25 G4 with Tiger. I have tweaked it a million ways and BFD always gets behind and lags and I can't play in time with it because of latency issues. Some beats are on time others are not. I recorded the BFD with the output of the Alesis to make sure I was not crazy and just sucked at drums, but no it was the BFD.

They sound great though and anyone in a studio should own them for retracking when needed.

[kwaehner]

Using a TD-10 brain, I got everything to work except the hi-hat (ProTools, G5, maxed out RAM).

The provided keymap sets were useless, so what I did was record each drum into my sequencer, see what notes were being sent, and then made my own custom TD-10 map. Took an hour, but now it works, EXCEPT the hi-hat. I concluded that's still a manual note re-assignment process until further notice...

If anyone else figured out the hi-hat secret, I'd love to know...

best to all
- Kevin

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by kwaehner

If anyone else figured out the hi-hat secret, I'd love to know...

Word is: hi-hat implementation works better and is more realistic in Toontrack products (Superior and C&V).
Your mileage may vary of course.

[kwaehner]

My mileage has been exactly the same as yours -

C/V just worked right out of the box. I tweked 2-3 triggers on the V-Drum map, and got playing in like 10 minutes. Hi-Hat triggers great, and the bounce feature makes so much sense.

That said, I'm still want to get BFD hats working, as I am invested in the program plus an expansion kit or two. Hope springs eternal...

[keithl]

check out the support board at fxpansion....they personally do a lot to try and solve your problems. BUT...there are a lot of people that are having issues with hi hats (me being one of them)>

I bought C&V, but have not loaded it yet...looking forward to trying it out. I heard it is tremendous out of the box.

[orange]

I agree with the previous posts.

This queston comes up all the time on gearslutz (do a search !). Basically BFD don't have the same level of realism when triggered via vdrums that the toontrack stuff does.

FXpansion have been promising improvements to their hat response with vdrums for about a year but despite frequent 'bashing' haven't improved the response at all. They have offered other, more useless, improvements to BFD in this time but nothing that improves the hihat realism. So I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to do anything.

Fxpansion are well aware of the problems so I can only assume that they don't feel the vdrum market is important enough to improve their product in this direction.

Buy DKHS c/v and it will work 'out of the box'.

si

[gfx]

Hey ,

We have tweaked the hat response recently again.

We have changed the way it transitions , particularly when being used with roland triggers and brains , registered users can download the new version from the user area.

I am not saying it is perfect yet , it is certainly better for many of our users according to the feedback we have recieved.

Any TD users wanting a keymap with settings to take advantage can email me gareth(at)fxpansion(dot)com.

Despite o-ranges statements to the contrary we are involved in an active program to get the hat response better.

Thank you

GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd.

[orange]

hi Gareth,

which version are you referring to which has these 'improvements'. We did speak on the phone about a month ago - are you saying that there has been improvements since then ? If so I've not noticed.

How have you made the transitions improved 'particularly in regard to roland'. Most of the roland stuff is just multiple midi note plus CC4 there's nothing particuarly different about it. What specifically do you mean ?

Plus, what's the 'active program' ?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an improvement but I've spent a months waiting so I'm assuming that it isn't gonna happen ?


si

[gfx]

Hi Si ,

There is a new build on the user area you can download.

It will need some setting up if you want me to send you a td20 map to look at id be happy to send one.

Basically we have cleaned up the way BFD handles the transmutations between hit types on the hat when the pedal is going from open to close which cause a lot of the 'swishy' problems.

We have improved the actual transition algo so that everything is a lot crisper and cleaner and taking we also have scaling working a lot better when it comes to mapping velocity to amplitude and which sample to trigger.

The open pedal splash 'spitting' has been resolved to. Again im not going to claim its perfect or couldnt be improved further but we are getting there I think.

If you want a keymap let me know I will send our one over which should map pretty well for the TD8 ? If I remember correctly that you have. Its a TD20 one but should be very similiar.

Again feedback is appreciated.

Cheers

GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd.

[orange]

hiya Gareth,

Just to confirm you are talking about build 1.5.0.42 beta ? Isn't this the one where you've rolled back some of the changes. From the release notes:

- Changed: inter-open position hihat transitions caused by hihat pedal movement are now disabled whilst we try to improve the algorithm

What have you done 'specifically' for the roland vdrums ? How have you

changed the way it transitions , particularly when being used with roland triggers and brains

If that's the only real change (roll back) from the previous release then my point remains:

Buy DKHS c/v and it will work 'out of the box'.

I thought that, when we spoke last month, we'd agreed that hat response wasn't really happening in BFD and that even you agreed that you owned a copy of DKHS and it was much better. We spoke about real-time transformations/crossfading etc etc. You said you were well aware of the problems. What has happened since then to make you change your mind.

C'mon, if you are gonna post on GS and as you are 'selling' your product, please make your posts accurate. If you want decent control with Vdrums then, at this stage, BFD isn't the ideal solution. Which is the information the original poster requested.

I suggest if anybody wants confirmation then they should check out both the fxpansion forum and the toontrack forum. You won't find any posts on the toontrack forum compaining about hihat response. Its a different situation over at fxpansion !


si

[gfx]

Hi Si ,

There are other tweaks that we have done , there is also a newer build 43.

I never claimed it was perfect nor did I claim it was working as well as or better than DHFS.

Yes we did speak last month or so and yes we still have areas to improve I dont think I have ever said otherwise.

The comments about the Roland hats is pertinant. Roland for example compared to the ddrum sends out a lot more note information based on pedal position we have improved the way BFD interprets these.

I am not denying anything. However we are making improvments.

I am not claiming anything to the contrary. Im not selling anything simply adding some information that may be relevant to the discussion.

I dont think ive misrepresented anything here. We have in our opinion improved the handling of v-drums hi hats with BFD. We still have more work to do but we have improved what is there. Rather than spend a Rainy saturday afternoon going backwards and forwards on a forum hows about I just send you a keymap. You can then tell me in your opinion if we have or havent improved anything. Makes sense to me.

It wont be until Monday though as im not in the office and I dont have the relevant mapping on my laptop.

Let me know if you would like me to send it.

Cheers

GFX

[orange]

hiya gareth,

Are there any hat control improvements in 43 compared with 42 ? There's nothing mentioned in the release notes.

Of course I'm more than happy for you to send me the keymap although I think we are both aware that the issues that BFD currently have with hat control are not to do with mapping they are due to way that the BFD audio engine triggers the individual samples.

Bear in mind that I've spent months (years !) working with BFD and vdrums. I'm using a heavily tweaked map too. Plus I've sent fxpansion comprehensive test results against DKHS and vdrums - I've pointed out where improvement needs to be made. I've exchanged emails with most of the staff discussing this exact point. I've bounced ideas back and forth with you guys. This has happened over MANY months and has achieved precisely nothing.

I'm not making these points to practice my typing but because I feel that often when FXpansion post on GS especially in relation to the hihat control issue, they often give misleading information.

I agree, you do not say it's perfect, you do however say that it's 'getting there'. This is very misleading - you are not 'getting there'. I haven't seen any improvement in the previous 42 (42 !) builds.

I'll report back when I've tried your keymap.

[gfx]

Hi Si ,

Ok great, I am not sure I have your email so could you perhaps PM me or send a mail to gareth(at)fxpansion(dot)com

cheers

have a good weekend

GFX

[orange]

[Roger Starr]

Maybe stupid, but what I don 't get is how it is possible that a piece of gear like V-Drums is not good enough to beat BFD straight away? BFD is so much more cheaper, does Roland not have a complete and good library in that V-module?

Regards,

Roger

[orange]

the inbuilt roland sounds are adequate but nowhere near as good as a separate library IMO.

Remember that DKHS and BFD are 30/40/50 gig of samples. It would be a struggle to get that in a vdrum module.

si

[chrisso]

I imagine Roland are spending all their money on the pad response and brain electronics.
The onboard sounds (of every) e-kit I've heard, sound as unrealistic as an electric guitar trying to sound acoustic.
It's ok for practice, or the odd gig, but software like BFD & DFH is definitely the way to go IMHO.

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by Roger Starr

Maybe stupid, but what I don 't get is how it is possible that a piece of gear like V-Drums is not good enough to beat BFD straight away? BFD is so much more cheaper, does Roland not have a complete and good library in that V-module?

Regards,

Roger

Not really. How large are some BFD kits? like 1gb? I know that there's that one library that has around 40gb of kits, and i'm sure some of them are just huge. If roland actually made such a sound library i'd be impressed. However roland has a habit of cutting corners these days.

[orange]

Originally Posted by Tibbon

Not really. How large are some BFD kits? like 1gb? I know that there's that one library that has around 40gb of kits, and i'm sure some of them are just huge. If roland actually made such a sound library i'd be impressed. However roland has a habit of cutting corners these days.

An average BFD kit can be a lot larger than 1gig. Using max layers some of the cymbals can be 1/4gig by themselves.

Those mothers are BIG

[chrisp2u]

Originally Posted by orange

Remember that DKHS and BFD are 30/40/50 gig of samples.

Not trying to be a d1ck or anything but it's DFHS... Drumkit From Hell Superior... NOT DKHS or DHFS, as mentioned an number of times previously.

Wish this thread was around before I went ahead and purchased BFD (and deluxe) to use with my TD20 kit last week. From posts I read over at the vdrums.com forum, some people seemed to be getting pretty reliable performance and actually preferred BFD over DFHS. I pretty much decided it was a toss up sound/performance-wise after reading everything that I did and went with BFD based on what many say is a better/easier interface.

Oh well... hopefully any issues are worked out soon.
---
c

[chrisso]

Originally Posted by chrisp2u

Wish this thread was around before I went ahead and purchased BFD (and deluxe)

The hi-hat issue with BFD has been debated for months here at Gearslutz (search 'bfd').
Whether it is still a live issue remains to be seen. Angus say's not.

[exit2studios]

Any updates on the hi-hat/BFD issue?

[sethmeister]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Word is: hi-hat implementation works better and is more realistic in Toontrack products (Superior and C&V).
Your mileage may vary of course.

Exactly.

I use a Roland TD-3 kit to trigger Toontrack's DFHS C&V and it actually responds and works better than the kit itself. Hihat functioning is *improved* when I'm triggering the samples as opposed to using the kit by itself.

Highly recommend it.

[Rogervandeberg]

Well , i also have a td-3 and the hi-hat interaction is just terrible on bfd.......

I have a band coming over to record this weekend and i'm going to try the kit with a real hat mic'ed up.......

Any chance you can post a screenshot of your keymap or something? I would really appreciate it

[smoore98]

Instead of creating a new thread I figured it easier to revive this one. I had a TD-3 with this hi-hat issue and every time I brought a drummer used to standard kits they told me the same thing - playing on them just wasn't natural.

I want to give this another try because I understand the TD-20 is much more playable, but I don't need that brain. All I want is something to relay MIDI - that's it. I have BFD with Andy Johns and Joe Baressi modules, as well as DFHS and tons of samples that I am happy with. I need to control the volume and I would rather use these sounds than mic drums.

Can you purchase all of the individual pieces of the TD-20 without the brain and then get something else (i.e. much cheaper) to handle MIDI? Has anyone else done this?

Scott

[nadumr]

I believe the new version of bfd (2.0) includes new support for continuous controllers like the v-drum hit hat controller... anyone know more about this?

[darkwater]

I use this trigger with BFD and it works incredibly well.

[KBOY]

I tracked the drums for a clients album using one of these Roland kits... I ended up triggering bfd for all the drums and Drum kit from hell for all the cymbals and HH. Worked great. But in the end the only thing that I couldn't stand in the tracks were the hh's. So I set up a kit with full miking and overdubed all of the hh's... Combined it sounds awesome!