Logic pro 9 8th core peaking

[Xill]

Originally Posted by Joji

I have a Mac pro 8 core computer. For some reason most plugins choke up the 8th core instead of spreading them across the 8 cores. Mostly Kontakt 5. does anyone have a fix. My computer is so powerful and my mix starts crackling because the 8th core starts peaking. I freeze the tracks to compensate.

This can happen even if I have only 7 or 8 tracks. this does not make sense to me

thanks

It's because Logic is a piece of junk when your on input-monitoring. Every track on input monitoring goes to the same core, makes samplers like Kontakt literally worthless.

The only fix is this:
Run Kontakt 5 in Stand Alone (it works better that way) and rout the audio using a sound card (like RME total mix), or through software like SoundFlower (16 channel limit) or Jack os X (unlimited amount of channels).

You'll also need to rout the midi to Kontakt using either hardware or midi-pipe, IAC or midi patchbay.

Doing as I have written above I can run a full 128 stereo channel orchestra (in 64 logic stereo bus) with zero glitch and no logic spike. Logic is still using only one core however, so you are limited in the amount of plugins you can use until you have recorded your track and have removed the input-monitoring. Kontakt however will use all the resources it requires without the Logic limitation.

Pro Tools doesn't allow Jack OsX routing at all so I have to stay with logic. But I will eventually ditch Logic because of the 1 core limit.


Of course this is not documented well at all, so it took me months to figure out why it did this; some people even got their Mac replaced thinking it was defective... I'll bet that most of the people working on Logic are completely oblivious to this.

[The Beatsmith]

What buffer size are you running?

Here's something i wrote yesterday to someone, which might help (although does repeat some of what the above poster mentioned):

=====

In Logic - and most daws - each track or channel uses one core. Logic can't distribute an AU's load across multiple cores, nor can you split individual plugins on the same channel, to multiple cores. Even Kontakt, which in standalone mode can be multicore aware, does not distribute stuff when used as an AU/VST.

So even though you ave 8 cores, the speed - per core - is too slow to run the most thirsty plugins these days. You can run hundreds of low overhead plugins that distribute nicely over the 8 cores - but the actual core speed isn't that great, unfortunately.

I have the same issue - i have a 2008 Mac Pro 2.8ghz octo and i can run out of cpu on one core while the other 7 do very little - logic uses the last core to perform in 'live mode' when you select an instrument track. I run a native rig (no hardware monitoring) and run at a 64 sample buffer (SSL MadiXtreme PCIe interface) and running Kontakt with something big ilke Abbey Road Drums, with a 64 buffer and lots of polyphony... it can get nasty. And routing multiple outs from Kontakt/any AU to multiple auxs and throwing plugins on them (i.e a kontakt drum kit routed out in logic with kick/snare/hihat/room all on their own aux).... forget about it. For whatever reason, Logic does all that on ONE CORE... ridiculous.

Workarounds/solutions - assuming you aren't going to just go out and buy a new Mac Pro:

- Increase your buffer size. If you're just at the mixing stage, throw it all the way up 1024! When composing, you might be OK living with 256 or 128, see how they feel - what are you running now?
- Run in 64-bit mode - it gave me an extra boost in cpu headroom of around 30% in some cases
- Reduce oversampling in any soft synths that support that, increase it when bouncing (offline)
- Turn off convolution reverbs in Kontakt 5 - they are power hungry. I'm sure Kontakt 5 is worse than 4 for cpu usage... and lower the max polyphony
- Make sure that when you're playing back the song in Logic, the Kontakt/any AU instrument channel is not selected in the arrange, as Logic will record/live arm the track, which will send the cpu usage on the last core to go bananas
- If you have enough RAM, use multiple instances Kontakt with the same patch loaded. This allows each instance of Kontakt to do some of the polyphony, and it'll also distribute these across multiple loads.
- Do not use multiple patches in one Kontakt instance. Again, use one patch per instance of Kontakt. This is a manual way of distributing Kontakt instruments across cores

Other options for you are: upgrade the cpu in your mac pro (whole other subject/thread, but if you have a 2009 Model you can get 2010 cpu's and drop them in your machine, if you have the know how), or just buy a newer mac pro like the 6 core 3.33ghz, or whatever the new machines will be. The 2010 are basically over twice as fast, per core than a 2009 2.26Ghz, or a 2008 2.8GHz.

Hope this helps!

Eddie

[The Beatsmith]

Originally Posted by Xill

The only fix is this:
Run Kontakt 5 in Stand Alone (it works better that way) and rout the audio using a sound card (like RME total mix), or through software like SoundFlower (16 channel limit) or Jack os X (unlimited amount of channels).

You'll also need to rout the midi to Kontakt using either hardware or midi-pipe, IAC or midi patchbay.

Doing as I have written above I can run a full 128 stereo channel orchestra (in 64 logic stereo bus) with zero glitch and no logic spike. Logic is still using only one core however, so you are limited in the amount of plugins you can use until you have recorded your track and have removed the input-monitoring. Kontakt however will use all the resources it requires without the Logic limitation

Hi

What kind of latency will this give you? What buffer size is Logic set to, and does the midi app incur extra latency?

I run at 64

Cheers

[Saltcreek]

Route your logic audio and instrument tracks to different busses. If you send all you audio to the same buss you can get peaks on one core. Create several busses and then send some drums to one buss the bass to another etc.

[The Beatsmith]

That trick doesn't help when in live/input monitoring/record arm mode, and at low latency

Using Kontakt with something like Studio Drummer in Kontakt 5, i can easily max out one core when playing it live with a 64-sample buffer

If i select an audio track instead of the Kontakt 5 AU track in the arrange, the Kontakt instrument can use use a few percent of CPU...

[valis]

Beatsmith is on the right track, Live mode (selected tracks) and live input monitoring (record enabled tracks that have an input set) will unfortunately get put entirely on a single core. There are several reasons for this, only one of which is the hybrid engine (phase coherence with PDC and the ease of managing the live input data are other reasons).

And so for single programs that are incredibly cpu hungry the best option is probably VE Pro (or another external host) but I think many people are just using a single instance of Kontakt or etc, and so when they want to add a new program alongside the others and go to 'perform' the new part the other items also get loaded up onto that single core. Solution is to use multiple Kontakt instances, 1 per heavy program.

[Saltcreek]

The original post doesn't mention anything about being in Live mode. If you are talking about having the Software monitoring enabled using bus channels is still helpful. To take an Audio Instrument out of Live mode just uncheck the record button and its no longer on one core. I thought he was talking about spikes during his mixing and the problem he was having with "most plugins".

Here are a couple other suggestions from Apple Logic: CoreAudio System Overload Messages

1. Avoid having an Audio Instrument track selected in the Arrange. When an Audio Instrument track is highlighted, Logic must devote enough CPU resources to insure that anything you might play live into the track can be processed. When you are mixing, try to keep an Audio or classic MIDI track highlighted as you work. Only select an Audio Instrument track at times when you are actually working with that particular track.

2. Use Bus channels to share CPU intensive effects among multiple tracks. Whenever possible, avoid putting reverbs and delays on individual channels. Put them on a Bus, and send to them from each track. If a track requires a different sounding reverb than the rest of the song, try a less CPU intensive reverb like the SilverVerb or GoldVerb. If you are processing multiple tracks with the same EQ and/or compressor, insert the plug-ins on a bus and set each track you wish to process to output to that bus.

3. Under Logic Pro > Preferences > Audio > General there's a setting for Sample Accurate Automation with three possible settings. The default is Volume, Pan, Sends, but may also be set to Off or Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters. The more automation parameters set to be sample accurate, the more load may potentially be placed on the CPU.

[The Beatsmith]

Originally Posted by valis

I think many people are just using a single instance of Kontakt or etc, and so when they want to add a new program alongside the others and go to 'perform' the new part the other items also get loaded up onto that single core. Solution is to use multiple Kontakt instances, 1 per heavy program.

I can get Kontakt 5 to run into issues with just ONE patch loaded, though (2008 Mac Pro 2.8Ghz, 64-sample buffer... and something like Studio Drummer). I always use one instance of Kontakt per patch. It's the low latency that really kicks up a fuss

[The Beatsmith]

Originally Posted by Saltcreek

The original post doesn't mention anything about being in Live mode.

1. Avoid having an Audio Instrument track selected in the Arrange. When an Audio Instrument track is highlighted, Logic must devote enough CPU resources to insure that anything you might play live into the track can be processed. When you are mixing, try to keep an Audio or classic MIDI track highlighted as you work. Only select an Audio Instrument track at times when you are actually working with that particular track.

Anyway, software monitoring and live mode will both utilise the same (final) core...

[Xill]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

Hi

What kind of latency will this give you? What buffer size is Logic set to, and does the midi app incur extra latency?

I run at 64

Cheers

Hi, no there is no noticeable midi latency with my Clavinova and the midi internal routing.

Since I only work routing Notation software --> Samplers --> Logic's, buffer-latency for me isn't an issue, as I do not have to perform on my digital piano.

I leave it at 256 to leave the extra cpu for plugins. I can lower it to 32 on my RME Babyface, but it is additional to the Standalone Kontakt buffer which takes a buffer of 128 minimum to run my full setup without glitch (that's 128 channels in two standalone kontakt).

On smaller chamber projects (16 or less channels) when routing through Totalmix I can set the buffer to 32 in Kontakt and 32 in Logic for what I imagine is a total of 64. Routing through SoundFlower or Jack OsX requires a higher buffer than through RME's converters in loopback mode.

Overall I can safely run 128 channels of Kontakt to 64 Logic bus (via Jack Os X) and record them simultaneously without glitch. This is ok with eqs on any channels, compressors and Altiverbs on 6 buses. On a buffer of 256kb in Logic and 128 in Kontakt it stretches the 7200rpm harddrive to 80% when recording (the same hard drive is playing the samples), the only working core of Logic is at 60-70%.

That is on a 2.8ghz i7 iMac.

[valis]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

I can get Kontakt 5 to run into issues with just ONE patch loaded, though (2008 Mac Pro 2.8Ghz, 64-sample buffer... and something like Studio Drummer). I always use one instance of Kontakt per patch. It's the low latency that really kicks up a fuss

I understand that, which is why I said "many users" & not "all users", directing my response to the OP & audience at large. You seem to grasp how Logic & various plugins function together. =]

[thermos]

I'm going to bump this. I've read every core balancing piece of info I've found online. I currently have a large 88.2 session where almost all of the tracks are frozen, save a few audio tracks, 10 busses or so and some not so cpu heavy plugs on the bus.

The first 5 cores are at about 10% while the 6th and 7th cores sit idle. The 8th core peaks like a mother and there is nothing I can do about it. 1024 latency, no input monitoring. I selected a frozen track in the editor window. What gives? This particular session was playing back fine a week ago, and all I've done is frozen tracks since then to get it back to working.

The only thing I can think of is I am using the i/o plugs to run through some outboard. Could that bog down the 8th core that much? Currently, PT 10.2 is kicking Logic's ass at CPU efficiency and core balancing.

[thermos]

Bump, anyone?

[valis]

I would guess it's your i/o plugins in combination with the bussing. Specifically the i/o plugin on a track that that has a few sends combined with another i/o plugin on the master bus, which means that the master bus may play a huge role here in the core load.

That's easy enough to test though, select an unused audio track (perhaps even disable its output so PDC completely ignores you), and disable both the i/o plugins I see. What does the last core do? Try just disabling the master bus i/o plugin and see the result then too...hitting start twice in a row to force PDC to completely recalculate (without the normal 1-2 second delay to 'catch') etc...

[thermos]

Originally Posted by valis

I would guess it's your i/o plugins in combination with the bussing. Specifically the i/o plugin on a track that that has a few sends combined with another i/o plugin on the master bus, which means that the master bus may play a huge role here in the core load.

That's easy enough to test though, select an unused audio track (perhaps even disable its output so PDC completely ignores you), and disable both the i/o plugins I see. What does the last core do? Try just disabling the master bus i/o plugin and see the result then too...hitting start twice in a row to force PDC to completely recalculate (without the normal 1-2 second delay to 'catch') etc...

Thanks, I'll try that. I think its the io stuff too. Not as robust as PT.

[cinealta]

Balance your multicores.

Logic Pro/Express: Tips for balancing multi-core performance

[nightsymbol]

This is the number 1 feature which the new Logic X should have solved properly.
It's unbelievable that it's one company making the hardware and software, but they don't work together as they should...

Apple, what is the use of buying your multicore machines anyway every year, when you don't have software which do support them well. Fix plugin support as no other sequencer has, as well fx plugins as VSTi.

But until then...shame on you, Apple!!!

[lore]

Originally Posted by thermos

I'm going to bump this. I've read every core balancing piece of info I've found online. I currently have a large 88.2 session where almost all of the tracks are frozen, save a few audio tracks, 10 busses or so and some not so cpu heavy plugs on the bus.

The first 5 cores are at about 10% while the 6th and 7th cores sit idle. The 8th core peaks like a mother and there is nothing I can do about it. 1024 latency, no input monitoring. I selected a frozen track in the editor window. What gives? This particular session was playing back fine a week ago, and all I've done is frozen tracks since then to get it back to working.

The only thing I can think of is I am using the i/o plugs to run through some outboard. Could that bog down the 8th core that much? Currently, PT 10.2 is kicking Logic's ass at CPU efficiency and core balancing.

i/o plug is the problem , no solution , avoid using sends on the strip where you inserted a i/o plug it'll be less heavy on cpu . i use a lot of hardware synths and have this problem all the time ... to use outboard with logic i think it's better to have 4 very powerful cpu's than 8 entry line ... although the benchmark test here on GS shows that a 2009 2.26 octo nehalem can handle a lot of tracks , it doesn't reflect real case scenarios where we all work differently .

logic 9.1.x cores load balance - again ...

[The Beatsmith]

Indeed. I hope the i/o plug and sends/busses 'cpu' can be distributed a little better when Logic X comes out. For now, upping the buffer size helps...

The problems i highlighted above were from running low latency with pretty intense instruments like a big sample library in Kontakt (i.e. composing). Upping the buffer helps when mixing, although note that using the I/O plug will through off your automation, if you have any automation that requires sample accuracy (e.g. de-essing)... running lower buffers seems to make all that tighter.

Certainly, it 'needs work'.

[valis]

If you need the i/o plugin on a track, send that track to an aux, use the i/o plugin on that aux, send to another aux if you need to further process with plugins (at least imo). Ie, that way you'll separate the buffering for the i/o plugin from other processing completely. Not sure I'd suggest this for the master bus though, as you may increase overall PDC latency quite a bit.

For Kontakt/VI related issues, do NO processing on the first auxes used for the 'multi' outputs. Send each of these to yet another aux (per output/aux) and do your processing there and bus as normal from there on. Don't use ANY sends or inserts on the first set of aux outputs. This seems like an odd limitation but it's how I deal with multi out VI's in Logic and avoid core peaking and it works pretty well, Logic will keep all the outputs on a single core becuase they don't control they 3rd party VI's load balancing (it's up to the plugin) and want to keep everything phase coherent as it enters the mix bus. Using the daisy chained auxes then allows Logic to core balance as it normally does again....

[thermos]

Resolved: put the io plug on their own busses. Then the idle cores kick in and help out a little. Thank you guys for the help! Seriously. This wasn't covered anywhere in online logic core balancing articles. Pt doesn't have this issue. Still 7 cores at 15% and an 8th core peaking, but at least it plays without errors.

[J F K]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

- If you have enough RAM, use multiple instances Kontakt with the same patch loaded. This allows each instance of Kontakt to do some of the polyphony, and it'll also distribute these across multiple loads.
- Do not use multiple patches in one Kontakt instance. Again, use one patch per instance of Kontakt. This is a manual way of distributing Kontakt instruments across cores

Originally Posted by valis

If you need the i/o plugin on a track, send that track to an aux, use the i/o plugin on that aux, send to another aux if you need to further process with plugins (at least imo). Ie, that way you'll separate the buffering for the i/o plugin from other processing completely. Not sure I'd suggest this for the master bus though, as you may increase overall PDC latency quite a bit.

For Kontakt/VI related issues, do NO processing on the first auxes used for the 'multi' outputs. Send each of these to yet another aux (per output/aux) and do your processing there and bus as normal from there on. Don't use ANY sends or inserts on the first set of aux outputs. This seems like an odd limitation but it's how I deal with multi out VI's in Logic and avoid core peaking and it works pretty well, Logic will keep all the outputs on a single core becuase they don't control they 3rd party VI's load balancing (it's up to the plugin) and want to keep everything phase coherent as it enters the mix bus. Using the daisy chained auxes then allows Logic to core balance as it normally does again....

amazing posts. thank you so much for sharing this knowledge

As per the advice I will try the aux chaining + individual VEP instances w/ single patch-loaded instruments. I'm thinking I can even get away w/ a multi-out VEP instance w/ > 1 inst due to Vienna properly multiprocessing the instruments