Slate Virtual Tape Machine

[KGS]

Wait... Call me a noob for this, but what exactly is the point of a virtual tape machine?

I assume there might be some genre of music where this kind of thing is commonly used, but to me it sounds like such a very specific effect, unlike, say, an EQ or reverb or whatever.

Notice that I'm not bashing the concept at all, I just don't see the point. I admit I have never used them myself either, so perhaps someone can explain the attraction? :D

[Ben Logan]

Tape is a tone and envelop shaper (tape compression). Warm vibe.

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

That's absolutely my philosophy..

The main goal has always been to reproduce in digital exactly what would be sampled from the real thing.

The challenge for the tape machine is that it has not only electronic parts, like there was for the VCC, but also moving parts, tape magnetism issues, bias, and a lot of interactions between these parts and electronics.

The behavior of the consoles was already pretty complicated to get right, but here with the tapes there is far more complicated phase, timing, amplitude and saturation issues.

That's also what makes the beauty of tape sound !


Fabrice

thanks for chiming in Fabrice. I cant imagine how technical it is to try to formulate a way to reproduce this...looking forward to hearing it

My question with this and VCC is - are there any elements of tape or consoles which do not necessarily improve the digital signal which you considered leaving out? Is the idea to model the process in totality or the beneficial parts of these processes?
I suppose that could be one advantage of creating a model...the ability to cherry pick characteristics...but perhaps thats not really possible...

I wondered for example if there was any genuine benefit to modelling crosstalk in consoles...

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by SWAN808

My question with this and VCC is - are there any elements of tape or consoles which do not necessarily improve the digital signal which you considered leaving out? Is the idea to model the process in totality or the beneficial parts of these processes?

My goal is to emulate 100% of the characteristics of the original analog device, without considering its "beneficial" parts.
Indeed experience and experimentation proved that what I thought to be beneficial or not was, most of the time, not making sense.
The answer here is "it does something to the sound", not "it's beneficial or not".
The way you apply these processes are not necessarily interdependent (some are), but most of the time, each process is part of a whole "sound" that you can identify thanks to its characteristics.

That said, being able to separate and process differently these characteristics will give some interesting things in a close future.

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I suppose that could be one advantage of creating a model...the ability to cherry pick characteristics...but perhaps thats not really possible...

That's totally possible in some cases! But letting the user choosing the characteristics, to me, would be too complicated and it would not be necessarily a good thing, because as I said, all the characteristics assembled together creates a personality, which is usually very complex.
If you change only one characteristic at a time, the whole personality would not be necessarily "interesting".

Originally Posted by SWAN808

I wondered for example if there was any genuine benefit to modeling crosstalk in consoles...

Absolutely! When I design the algorithms, I can totally isolate and test every single characteristic to really listen to what it's doing. Crosstalk is definitely beautiful.



Fabrice

[CaptainHook]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

Absolutely! When I design the algorithms, I can totally isolate and test every single characteristic to really listen to what it's doing. Crosstalk is definitely beautiful.

Hey Fabrice, waves have said their new console emulation was modelled on 32 different channels so they all sound a bit different and can be random or selected.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is VCC one channel from each console? Multiple random ones? A combination of a few?

Thanks.

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by CaptainHook

Hey Fabrice, waves have said their new console emulation was modelled on 32 different channels so they all sound a bit different and can be random or selected.

What are your thoughts on this?

Is VCC one channel from each console? Multiple random ones? A combination of a few?

Thanks.

Some of the early VCC users may remember, but it was planned for the very first release to have a "drift" feature that I wanted to do for this purpose. It was supposed to change a little bit the algorithm parameters of each channel to differentiate them. This option was grayed out in the plugin.

It's still planned to be released in an update, that's why it should still appear in the manual that some guys may have carefully read.


Fabrice

[goshalev]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

It's still planned to be released in an update

Fabrice

Itll be long waited like FG-X update?

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

That said, being able to separate and process differently these characteristics will give some interesting things in a close future.


Fabrice

interesting!

[CaptainHook]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

Some of the early VCC users may remember, but it was planned for the very first release to have a "drift" feature that I wanted to do for this purpose. It was supposed to change a little bit the algorithm parameters of each channel to differentiate them. This option was grayed out in the plugin.

Ah thanks. Yeah i got in during the VCC beta but threads are so long it's hard to read it all.

By the way, our York St mastering guy said again to me the other day that if he had to choose between the manley vari-mu outboard and the compressor on FG-X, he would choose the FG-X comp. He still loves it!

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by CaptainHook

By the way, our York St mastering guy said again to me the other day that if he had to choose between the manley vari-mu outboard and the compressor on FG-X, he would choose the FG-X comp. He still loves it!

How wow !! I'm honored to read such feedback !


Fabrice

[serga]

Hi Fabrice! I have a question. Would you like to emulate crosstalk on VTM plugin, well you know this magnetic interaction between neighbour tracks. And as an idea, it might be interesting to find on your new plugin a feature of this interaction when you turn on group option (when you insert VTM on 24 tracks then all neighbour tracks have this magnetic crosstalk interaction, for example between track 1 and 2, then between track 2 and 3 and so on...)

[serga]

By the way, nobody did it yet.

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by serga

Hi Fabrice! I have a question. Would you like to emulate crosstalk on VTM plugin, well you know this magnetic interaction between neighbour tracks. And as an idea, it might be interesting to find on your new plugin a feature of this interaction when you turn on group option (when you insert VTM on 24 tracks then all neighbour tracks have this magnetic crosstalk interaction, for example between track 1 and 2, then between track 2 and 3 and so on...)

That's definitely something we thought about..
I'm not really sure if it's interesting to do that, and also if it's interesting to reproduce the exact behavior of a tape machine on this point.

For instance, to be perfectly faithful, we should allow the plugin to have a limited amount of instances (i.e. 16 tracks for a 2 inch tape and 2 tracks for a half inch tape). Also, we could reproduce the limitations of a real tape recording sessions, for instance having a time code track and an empty track right next to the time code track, having some tracks in the middle of the recording head which sound a little different than on the edge, having a limited amount of recording time, etc, etc..

The goal here is to reproduce the characteristic tape sound without having to deal with such troubles, and to get rid of the limitations of the tape.

Moreover, having such characteristics would be possible but pretty complicated to use, and would have technical limitations, increase the processing delay and CPU hit, and, at last, would increase the development efforts a lot for something which would not necessarily one of the main interest of the plugin.



Fabrice

[serga]

Thanx for reply Fabrice! I was thinking about sonic qualitys only, not about emulating all behavour of tape mashine))). But you right about CPU overloading.

[electro]

Originally Posted by serga

Hi Fabrice! I have a question. Would you like to emulate crosstalk on VTM plugin, well you know this magnetic interaction between neighbour tracks. And as an idea, it might be interesting to find on your new plugin a feature of this interaction when you turn on group option (when you insert VTM on 24 tracks then all neighbour tracks have this magnetic crosstalk interaction, for example between track 1 and 2, then between track 2 and 3 and so on...)

How could this be desireable? Is that the main effect we hear with Analog tape machines?

[js1]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

Some of the early VCC users may remember, but it was planned for the very first release to have a "drift" feature that I wanted to do for this purpose. It was supposed to change a little bit the algorithm parameters of each channel to differentiate them. This option was grayed out in the plugin.

It's still planned to be released in an update, that's why it should still appear in the manual that some guys may have carefully read.


Fabrice

Hi Fabrice,

Digging the product, but since you're on the thread about this issue...

With the beta, enabling VCC makes something that bothers me go away. I can't tell you exactly what that "something" is, only that things sounded suddenly right, and I wasn't fighting with digital. I always group all the channels together, so I can bypass them simultaneously. Flipping on the beta VCC gets a sigh of relief from me.

With the release version, it definitely sounds better, much more like a console, but that thing that bothers me is still there. I think...

Now, this may be all in my head (it's happened before), and it's been a while since I've run the beta. I'm going to do some blind A/B testing with the old and new versions this weekend.

IIRC, the drift was in the beta, and I could see how it could de-correlate the low level signal between channels. So, if this is the case, big vote from me to put in the drift.

For others reading this post, PLEASE don't turn this into a gearslutz frenzy. AFAIK, I'm the only person who feels this way about the beta, and I might be wrong.

js

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by js1

With the beta, enabling VCC makes something that bothers me go away. I can't tell you exactly what that "something" is, only that things sounded suddenly right, and I wasn't fighting with digital.

The easiest way to do something here would be to know what IS that something.
Indeed I absolutely need to know where to search for something, regarding all the details and dependences there is in the VCC, in order to know what's going on..

Feel free to PM me with more details !


Fabrice

[SWAN808]

Originally Posted by js1

enabling VCC makes something that bothers me go away. I can't tell you exactly what that "something" is, only that things sounded suddenly right, and I wasn't fighting with digital.
js

I had to double take this - but - I think this is a vague compliment

[serga]

Originally Posted by electro

How could this be desireable? Is that the main effect we hear with Analog tape machines?

Well, I think it`s important part of whole effect. But business is business, developers have to make money. It`s OK and I understand that. Who need a plugin which eating your budget and CPU?

[serga]

I just was thinking thad Slate Digital is able to provide "next step" plugin after waves and UAD tape plugins has been given to us. At least when I purchased VCC I got an innovative product and I was expecting from them something like this with tape emu. But next one tape plugin providing almost the same features as previous already... just different tape formula, I don`t know... I will really think if I really need it.
Just my thoughts, sorry if I bother someone.

[serga]

By the way UAD ATR 102 is providing at least stereo crosstalk...

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by serga

I just was thinking thad Slate Digital is able to provide "next step" plugin after waves and UAD tape plugins has been given to us. At least when I purchased VCC I got an innovative product and I was expecting from them something like this with tape emu. But next one tape plugin providing almost the same features as previous already... just different tape formula, I don`t know... I will really think if I really need it.
Just my thoughts, sorry if I bother someone.

Actually the big step with the VTM is how close we get to the real thing regarding the sound. There's many aspects, which, IMHO, make the real magic of a tape recording, which has not been reproduced yet.
The most difficult part here is to reproduce the typical "tape issues" which are really the "signature" of a tape recording.

It's the case in every technical field, each percent closer to a 100% perfect result is more difficult and more expensive to achieve.


Fabrice

[serga]

Tnx again Fabrice. I really in love with your plugins I own (Trigger, VCC), but another one tape emu even with better algo 10-15% closer to the reel thing do non makes it unique, what makes the plugin unique is features like it is with Trigger and VCC.

[Fabrice Gabriel]

Originally Posted by serga

Tnx again Fabrice. I really in love with your plugins I own (Trigger, VCC), but another one tape emu even with better algo 10-15% closer to the reel thing do non makes it unique, what makes the plugin unique is features like it is with Trigger and VCC.

I think the improvement in sound will make a pretty big difference. Anyway I hope so ! Algorithm wise, there will be a big difference.



Fabrice

[serga]

And one another question to you Fabrice. I found one thing with all emulations witch is, when I take a audio file, make a copy of that and processing them both with the same settings in plugin the result is the same sample to sample. Can you tell me that with your VTM plugin this will not happen as it is in a real world (when i will prcessing a track with the tape mashine two times the resalt going to be little different maybe not recognizable but not sample to sample the same). Maybe this is what you calling "tape issues"?))

[serga]

Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel

I think the improvement in sound will make a pretty big difference. Anyway I hope so ! Algorithm wise, there will be a big difference.



Fabrice

I have an idea for you. Maybe it make sense to build a tape emu with separated blocks (plugins) well you know tape itself, then electronics (input, output stages), crosstalk fetures and so on? The reason is to avoid CPU overloading but to give to the people ability to choose features witch make sense for them.

[Fabrice Gabriel]

It would be too complicated to release several plugins or options, and I was explaining this is also difficult to separate all the aspects of the devices without losing its "identity".



Fabrice

[serga]

O.K. waiting for demo release...

[neilwilkes]

[QUOTE=js1;7541043
IIRC, the drift was in the beta, and I could see how it could de-correlate the low level signal between channels. So, if this is the case, big vote from me to put in the drift.

[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty certain that drift was never actually enabled in the beta - it was there, but not accessible at all.
However, I may well be mistaken here & there was something there that emulated the interaction between channels, I cannot remember.

Very interesting to read this and I look forward to your blind test results as I have been using VCC extensively since beta now (I was lucky enough to get in on that deal thanks to Tony Belmont Plugins, and have since bought all SSD products)

[David Carlyon]

Hi fabrics, bought vcc last week and I'm very impressed! I wont be mixing itb without it again.
Will all the grouping featured on the tape emu be the same as vcc?
I can't wait to hear it, all of the tape emus I have tried from waves etc so far have sounded more like fx than anything else. You couldn't realistically use then across a mix

Also a quick question, in pro tools I sub group everything so I have drums coming out of a stereo buss, vocals, fx, etc etc and then they all go to the mix buss.
What is the best way of incorporating vcc in your opinion?
Thanks for the great products... I'm getting trigger this weekend too!