Login / Register
 
Streaming music not stolen
New Reply
Subscribe
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#1
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #1
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
Streaming music not stolen

Streaming Music / No Downloading ... i know it is still possible to record anything that is online. but what is the best way to prevent anyone from Downloading songs from a website ..

thank you

john
__________________
Macpro 2.8 (2008) / ML 10.8.5 / 10gb memory
MacBook Pro 2.16 / OS 10.6.8 & 10.7.5 / 2gb memory
Aurora 16 & Lynx AES16e-SRC / PT10.3.7.296 & PT11.1.2 on ML / Nuendo 6.0.7.2277 & N5.5.6 on ML / Logic 9.1.8 / FCP 7
._.
#2
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #2
._.
Gear addict
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: local group, virgo supercluster
Posts: 332

._. is offline
The best way is to not put music on the internet. If nobody can hear it they can't possibly record/copy it.
__________________
How brostep is really made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuitt View Post
I just set auto quantize on and roll my face on the keyboard to make music, it's awesome
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#3
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #3
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
ok ... now, back to business ...

anyone ?
#4
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #4
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
ok ... now, back to business ...

anyone ?
Well, he's right, of course. It's trivially easy to use software for stream ripping. Or the "record-what-you-hear" option offered by many soundcard driver mixers. And anyone with a patch cable can record the output of his soundcard as it's playing your music.

You can throw up obstacles to casual downloading, though.

Real lightweights may be put off by 'hiding' your media behind a stream link using an .m3u pionter file. But, of course, anyone who simply takes a look at the .m3u pointer file will see the actual URL of the media file, making it pretty easy to DL.

Slightly tougher is to use a Flash player and HTML Flash serving -- but, again, either the embed code will have the actual media file URL in it or it will point to some sort of file [often an easy-to-parse XML file] with the URL of any files in the designated playlist.

If you're a real web whiz and know your way around the server scripting languages available on your site's servers, you might be able to feed a Flash player with encrypted URLs for your media files.

Probably the best you can do is to use a Flash player on a Flash server (if you have to ask how much that costs, you definitely cannot afford it ).


But, again, if it shows up as audio on someone's machine, it can be recorded, even if it can't be stream-ripped.
__________________
.
.

TK Major: social, biz, and music stuff | a crisp, flat design restyle for GS: Gray GS 2.2 for Chrome/Stylebot

People make oceans of music and only a tiny, tiny amount ever rises up for a few moments like a wave, visible from the shore. And then it's gone, too, back into the bottomless sea of forgotten music.
TK Major
. The Forgotify Files
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#5
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
understood all around ... but I need to put this music up so I have to deal with it ... and yes, I own Audio Hijack pro myself ...

i saw WimpyPlayer in another thread ... appears to have a way to hide your original file names from anyone but hackers ... anyone have experience with wimpy or another player ?

yes, agreed, Flash server is crazy expensive ...

cheers
#6
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #6
Lives for gear
 
lagavulin16's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: unincorporated marin county
Posts: 1,824

lagavulin16 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
ok ... now, back to business ...

anyone ?
You got your answer, though you may not like it. If it can be heard, it can be captured and recorded. There simply is no technical solution to that problem, and it is doubtful there ever will be. It's called the "analog hole".
__________________
#7
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #7
Gear addict
 
scottwilson's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Westchester, NY

scottwilson is offline
The only question you can answer (and the reason everyone's being smarmy) is

How much is it worth to protect my music?

Using that as a guideline ($0? $100? $1000?), you can then decide how much you want to spend trying to get someone to try to stop stealing it.

If your answer is $0 then try soundcloud.

If your answer is $100, then try Amazon S3 streaming with some custom effort on your part to integrate a flash player that supports streaming

If your answer is $1000 then you can probably come up with some cool session based software that issues time-limited tokens that allow only a single request to be made for a given audio stream that cannot be reused or includes some crpytographic message signing from the client.

Even the $1000 option is then only making it a little more of a pain in the ass for someone who is just gonna record off his audio driver if he really wants it.
__________________
scott wilson - scratchstudio.com - soundcloud - fb - twitter
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#8
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
I do not have my answer ... I am looking for players to stream the audio with some protection. i mentioned Wimpyplayer ...

what tools do you use .. ?
._.
#9
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #9
._.
Gear addict
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: local group, virgo supercluster
Posts: 332

._. is offline
Soundcloud lets people stream but not download if you don't want it, just put up a file with low enough quality so nobody wants to download/copy it.
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#10
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
sound cloud .. interesting idea .. thank you direct upload from pro tools 10 now too !!!
#11
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #11
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
understood all around ... but I need to put this music up so I have to deal with it ... and yes, I own Audio Hijack pro myself ...

i saw WimpyPlayer in another thread ... appears to have a way to hide your original file names from anyone but hackers ... anyone have experience with wimpy or another player ?

yes, agreed, Flash server is crazy expensive ...

cheers
Looks like WimpyPlayer claims media file name encryption. Or perhaps simple obfuscation?

That said, I'm thinking that such encryption is somewhat server dependent. And the nice folks at WimpyPlayer don't apparently see fit to give ANY information on how it works or any possible/probable limitations.

And the WimpyPlayer doesn't seem to support HTML5 -- so you'd be buying something that is, for better or worse, already 'behind' the curve -- as defined by the Apple-pushed rush job of trying to get working HTML5 audio standards implementation. (You've got to worry about any 'new' technology that is often implemented as a fall-back -- falling 'back' to HTML5 if a given platform doesn't support Flash.)

The Wimpy folks do have an HTML5 player: http://www.pickleplayer.com/


I looked at pay-for Flash based as well as HTML5 players a while back and decided to stick with no-cost or shareware Open Source players.
#12
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #12
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ._. View Post
Soundcloud lets people stream but not download if you don't want it, just put up a file with low enough quality so nobody wants to download/copy it.
While their DLs are dependent on the quality you put up -- their streams are all 128 kbps -- which strikes many as a bit low for today's expectations. They do have 'stream only' as an option.

That said, their player has some nice features, including the ability to tag comments to specific places on the media file's timeline. (So you can tag a "Nice drum break right here" right under the drum break, and so on.) Not sure if the embeddable version allows the comments, though.
#13
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #13
Gear addict
 
scottwilson's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Westchester, NY

scottwilson is offline
The new HTML5 player is a little more flexible, lets you share and see timed comments in the player, but not add comments. I like the flash one better for it's simplicity. The HTML5 one seems like they tried to cram too much into it.

Always upload the best quality to soundcloud that you can. They will be transcoding the file either way, so you're better off with only one layer of processing. Then just disable downloads.

While higher quality streaming would be nice, it is a motivation for purchasing over ripping.

s
#14
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 756

TimOBrienFlorida is offline
A couple of times in the song, take the volume down and announce "Thanks for listening to (songname)...."

Or just put half of it up and fade it out.

You just CAN'T keep anyone from recording it.
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#15
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
we have talked about just that Tim .. beeps or white noise build up after :30 .. partial songs ... thank you

keep the ideas / tools coming ...

i have an email out to a friend that i used to work with at house of blues. he did all our live web encoding .. may have some insight ...

cheers
#16
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #16
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimOBrienFlorida View Post
A couple of times in the song, take the volume down and announce "Thanks for listening to (songname)...."

Or just put half of it up and fade it out.

You just CAN'T keep anyone from recording it.
Yep.

But, I have to say, as sympathetic as I am with the desire for musicians to be paid for their work, and no matter what I think intellectually about the justified nature of such solutions as those above, when I'm trying to listen to something by someone, whether on their site or on a sales site like CDBaby, when a stream cuts off in the middle or there's an embedded message or even just a beep every now and then, it ticks me off. This is not an intellectual thing. I think it's entirely justified; an artist should be free to do what he wants with his work.

But, nonetheless, I feel insulted and some little voice in the back of my head says, who the hell does this guy think he is? It really turns me off.

Just sayin'...


PS... With regard to a relatively easy way to let folks hear your tracks while still discouraging casual downloading is to put your track up on YouTube. (Use as high a video quality as you can, since YT's submission robot seem to use lo fi sound in its rendering of the presentation video if it senses a lo quality/size image track.) Some folks use a single image. Some folks use a slide show. Some folks use lyrics. Some folks use 'found' footage from Archive.org (check the permissions before using what you find there, though, to be on the safe side). Of course, it is possible to download videos from YouTube -- although many folks probably don't realize that -- but vids aren't as convenient for everyday listening, particularly in portable devices.

PPS... Honestly, with regard to preventing unauthorized downloading, I think the best solution may simply be the honor system. The honor system won't work with everyone,* of course. But I think many folks would like to do the right thing. And, especially if they know you're not some fat cat superstar, I think they're often willing to. (It's when they're broke and you're driving around in a Rolls that things get sticky. )


*My one blast at sociological analysis, the eponymous, Tom Major's Rule of Thirds, suggests that 1/3 of any given random population will be selfish, uncaring greedheads who put themselves and their interests above those of others, 1/3 are basically decent, caring folks, and the other 1/3 just floats back and forth in between. Explains so much in human history.
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#17
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
crazy world where we have to worry about property in the form of 0's & 1's

i understand your issues with interruptions in music that are distracting from the listening experience ...

who does this guy think he is ... he is the guy who's car you are stealing and then loaning it to all your friends too ... LOL

maybe a hidden tone added to a download that will make people Soil themselves ...

#18
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #18
Gear addict
 
Lorddiagram's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Devil's Gulch, Boulder Creek
Posts: 315

Send a message via Skype™ to Lorddiagram
Lorddiagram is offline
._.
#19
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #19
._.
Gear addict
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: local group, virgo supercluster
Posts: 332

._. is offline
+1 for youtube, even the best quality on youtube is quite bad sounding so even if someone download the video and extract the audio they won't have good sound.

Also if you want exposure many people know what youtube is and visit it often, but almost noone know what soundcloud is, the rest is even more obscure. Youtube is good for getting new listeners/customers since its so known.
#20
16th December 2011
Old 16th December 2011
  #20
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
crazy world where we have to worry about property in the form of 0's & 1's

i understand your issues with interruptions in music that are distracting from the listening experience ...

who does this guy think he is ... he is the guy who's car you are stealing and then loaning it to all your friends too ... LOL

maybe a hidden tone added to a download that will make people Soil themselves ...



Like I said, it's an emotional reaction -- not an intellectual/ethical one.

But, don't forget, I'm not trying to steal it, I just want into the showroom to check it out.


I do sort of like your brown note solution. It might be amusing to see the iPod-groover in front of you in line at the bank suddenly get a sick look on his face and have to run for the exit as a song with what might be the ultimate copy protection came up in his play queue...
#21
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,750

Jeff Hayat is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ._. View Post
Soundcloud lets people stream but not download if you don't want it....
Sorry, but when you play a song off of the Soundcloud site, it is downloaded to your computer's HD.

Cheers.
#22
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 513

MadforBrad is offline
if you can hear it / see it , you can steal it. So no. If someone wants it, they will get it.
#23
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,462

skira is offline
#24
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #24
Lives for gear
 
skira's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,462

skira is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ._. View Post
+1 for youtube, even the best quality on youtube is quite bad sounding so even if someone download the video and extract the audio they won't have good sound.
Right. Only make low-quality files available, since audio extraction is quite simple.
#25
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #25
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 20,294

theblue1 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by ._. View Post
+1 for youtube, even the best quality on youtube is quite bad sounding so even if someone download the video and extract the audio they won't have good sound.

Also if you want exposure many people know what youtube is and visit it often, but almost noone know what soundcloud is, the rest is even more obscure. Youtube is good for getting new listeners/customers since its so known.
YouTube is a trusted brand that everyone knows, many people like, and few people hate. And almost everyone seems to figure it out right away.

You actually can trick the upload robots (or actually, the reconversion robots that reformat your video to YT's preferences) into re-rendering your audio with decent-ish fidelity -- but if the video quality of your video is low -- even if the audio quality is full, un-data-compressed CD-quality -- the robots will typically lower the fidelity of the sound to 'match' what it takes as the low quality of your vid's video track.

But it's tricky. I've spent days uploading trial vids in different codecs, screen formats/sizes, video compression qualities, you name it.

Ultimately, all I could decide was it's best to upload the biggest, highest quality audio and video you can and hope that the YT robots don't decide to give you lo fi, underwater sounding audio because your image 'quality' wasn't high enough.
#26
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #26
Gear nut
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 134

Jadestar is offline
Let`s go backwards..

Things are what they are.
I am not happy with it BUt we all have to deal with it.

(stop whining)
#27
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,161

quincyg is offline
watermark it.
jwh1192
Thread Starter
#28
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
jwh1192's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Venice, Ca
Posts: 2,115

Thread Starter
jwh1192 is offline
Watermark ... interesting ...

i remember a friend that owns a DVD authoring company had to do a Watermark for something one time ... I will give him a shout to discuss and see if it is something I am able to do ...


and whining ? no one is whining here / just chatting & discussing ... please do not stir things up ... If you are saying I am whining as the song writer, well, I am in my heart but I am a realist and understand. I do not write songs for anyone but Me. I would love to just write and let'm go and never think about making a dime but maybe I am not alone in this project, I am one of 3 people on this last CD.

thank you

john
#29
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,161

quincyg is offline
It's no ideal, but a little blast of static half way through the song would be enough for people to not steal it. My feeling is that it is not worth the effort, if you embed the audio in a flash .swf it will discourage most people from stealing it. The people who do steal it would probably steal it one way or another.

Are these songs that will be available for sale? If so, there is currently no way to prevent them from be pirated and shared once purchased. Until governments actually start cracking down on piracy we just have to live with it. It really does blow for people trying to make a living from selling their music.

It seems like there should be some way for each person to have a unique id that is stamped to a song, video, book, etc. when you purchase it. The file would then only be playable on devices authorized by the person. Maybe some kind of nfc authorization. Just a thought for the future.
#30
17th December 2011
Old 17th December 2011
  #30
Lives for gear
 
shponglefan's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: Great White North
Posts: 2,485

shponglefan is offline
I think the question that doesn't seem to have been asked is: why are you putting music online? Is it because you are selling music and want to give people a chance to listen to it? Is to "demo" music geared towards generating industry interest? It is simply because you want to share music you created but are not selling it?

Because I think knowing that would help narrow down an ideal solution. That said, other than partial songs, putting full songs online is going to invite possible copying. Assuming the music good. You could always just upload some terrible tracks that no one would want to steal.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
DeathUberschall / So much gear, so little time!
59
danika / So much gear, so little time!
2
rack gear / Music Business
9
bergj00 / Music Business
3

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.