MacBook Pro 2.0 i7 2011 - not good enough?

[notomorrow]

Hey all,

MacBook Pro 2011 quad i7
2.0
4 gb Ram
500 gb hdd

audio interface - Creative EMU USB 0404

I use Ableton

I'm working on this machine for couple of months now and there's huge improvement comparing it to the cheap toshiba laptop I used to have before.
But even so, I can easily get to 50-60% CPU in Ableton only with 10 tracks - couple of arturia synths, some Waves plugs and others. At this point, at 800 samples buffer size, things start to move slowly and I get some cracks and pops.

I'm a little confused because before I got the machine I heard people talking on this forum that they run 40 tracks at 5 ms latency @ 96000 sample rate which now obviously seems a little alien to me.

Am I doing something wrong? How should I be able to work on large projects with 30+ tracks and run it smooth? Is the cheap audio interface the problem here? Is it causing all this clogging? I'm thinking at upgrading in a couple of months to RME Fireface 400 or so. Will such an interface help my computer perform better?

I was really hoping that things would run smooth no matter how big the projects are but it seems this is not the case. Or is it?

Really hoping I figure this out as it bugs me right now

Thanx guys

[djanthonyw]

Ableton is not the best when it comes to CPU usage, try Logic.

[Alex Aliferis]

I use this machine with Logic and have pushed it very hard without experiencing any of the issues you described. It's been nothing but a powerhouse for me.

[Eiko]

I've seen people complaining about lack power of their brand new system, who haven't understood the concept of send effects. They've put a reverb plugin on each single track insert, which then easily amounts to 20 - 30 reverb plugs. Sure this way a comp can go down easily. Since I don't know how you work, I can only assume that this might be the problem. If you do know how to use a rev plug though, forget what I wrote

[frawnchy]

Originally Posted by Eiko

I've seen people complaining about lack power of their brand new system, who haven't understood the concept of send effects. They've put a reverb plugin on each single track insert, which then easily amounts to 20 - 30 reverb plugs. Sure this way a comp can go down easily. Since I don't know how you work, I can only assume that this might be the problem. If you do know how to use a rev plug though, forget what I wrote

Or a slight variation on that theme: if you have one reverb (or any effect) return, each track that sends to it starts being calculated by the core the reverb is being dealt with.
At least, that's how Ableton works.
Bit of a balancing act, but easily work-around-able(ton).

Also, to confirm a previous statement: Ableton=CPU-unfriendly.

[notomorrow]

I don't have reverbs on 20 tracks and I know how to use send effects. But in a 30 tracks project there are a couple of plugins involved...

Anyway, I'm guessing the Creative EMU 0404 USB card audio interface could be a problem here?
Will a high end sound card provide better results?

[Eiko]

Originally Posted by notomorrow

I don't have reverbs on 20 tracks and I know how to use send effects. But in a 30 tracks project there are a couple of plugins involved...

It was just a wild guess, since these things happen quite frequently, and those threads do start somehow similar. No offense

I can't see why the audio interface should be the problem. Reading the spex it should be OK for the job. All it does is bringing your mixes back into analog. So normally the AI shouldn't care if there are a million tracks in your project, cos it only gets to process the resulting stereo track. Does this make sense? It uses CoreAudio, which should be fine.

Anyway, maybe you're using some really heavy plugins (Arturia comes to mind) that you wouldn't have used with the old weaker computer?
I don't know Ableton so I wouldn't know where to start looking for the culprit.

But it sure doesn't sound normal, and I'd try to find out first, if it might be related to my workflow (unlimited possibilities tend to lead to huge projects with gazillion of plugins and tracks, which don't often help the tune anyway, so a little self limitation sometimes helps a lot IMHO), and after that I'd try to find out if it's a specific plugin that causes this problem. Some plugins are not so well programmed or outdated, so here might another cause.

Have you tried the good old trash-the-prefs-file trick?

Also have you got things running in the background, that are using up processing power? Other apps, virus scanners, Spotlight? Have a look in the activity monitor, to see where all the power gets wasted.
Also check your startup items.

I recently spoke to a friend who got himself a brand new MacPro (coming from PC) He too started complaining about the power of his new machine. How can such a powerful computer ever reach a limit. Not only did he use some of the most demanding plugins ("oh what the heck, let's slap another SpaceDesigner on the track, my computer is so strong, it won't even notice"), but he also did some very demanding processes in the background, like rendering a large picture in Photoshop at the same time (yes, he really had Photoshop open at one time!).
Who'd be surprised that his computer ran out of steam.

[(un)reason]

Might be a dumb one, but check you have multicore support switched on, otherwise you'll only be using a quarter of your potential processing power.

[notomorrow]

hey,
multicore is on


yes, I do use some very demanding plugs. Arturia synths is what I mostly use, with about 5 synths in a project, on top of that come a handfull of waves plugs. Unfortunately arturia and waves are known to be very cpu hungry, but hell, they are cool, I want to use want I want to use.

If this machine starts struggling after 10 tracks, what do I have to buy? The whole NASA control board?

I really wasn't expecting this

[gdoubleyou]

Are your projects on a dedicated hard drive?

[notomorrow]

no they're not

everything runs from the Mac hard disk. There are no partitions. Is it something wrong with this? Should there be different partitions like in windows?

[inthere]

Ableton is having a lot of problems with memory management and hard drive management. Just about every version of Live 8 has been buggy as hell. Go to the Ableton forums, there's a lot of workarounds and solutions there, but personally if you want to save money and stress just learn to use a different DAW like Logic. On your machine Logic would handle 60+ tracks of what you're talking about with ease. To me Logic is a lot easier to learn than Ableton, but YMMV.

I use Ableton a lot and actually I can't do without it because I'm a DJ, but I never use it for VI's and very rarely do I use effects in it.

Normally I would just tell you to run it in Windows because Windows versions are usually better performing versions, but the Windows version of Ableton is even more buggy than the OSX version.

[Eiko]

Originally Posted by notomorrow

no they're not

everything runs from the Mac hard disk. There are no partitions. Is it something wrong with this? Should there be different partitions like in windows?

Indeed, this is a valid point:
You should try using an external firewire harddrive, and you'll find that everything runs much more smoothly.
Why? Because recoding audio means a lot of work for the HD, and your system drive is already busy with the system.
Besides, internal drives are often slower than you average external drive (5400 vs 7200 rpm), which is another reason not to use them to record on.

Another good reason is that you're ableton projects will soon pile up and use up valid space on the system drive. Audio projects can be huge!

You should always make sure there's always a good chunk of free space on your system drive. If it gets clogged up with too much stuff, it will become unstable.

Think of it this way: you can't work in the kitchen if all the kitchen tables are in a mess. You'd need space to move the pan around, to chop the vegetables, do put things aside for later.
Computers work much the same way, they need room to put things aside, move stuff around etc. So always make sure your system drive doesn't get messy.

[Jeezo]

the problem is easy :

OSX + Ableton +EMU + Methodogy (when you hit the mixing stage , you work with audio only amigo)

same laptop :

Win 7 + Sonar (or nuendo or what ever) +Rme interface + good methology : more than enoougth !!!!

[notomorrow]

I have about 200 gigs free on my hard drive and I intend to leave them free for good performance.
I guess Logic runs smoother but switching to Logic would be a pain in the ass, as I already have 6-7 projects that are about 70% and I want to finnish them asap. Moreover I'd have to reinstall all the vsts. Or isn't this the case? In fact, there's only one folder for vst and audio units so maybe Logic will see them as they are already installed? Is this correct?

And until I hit the mixing stage there's the recording and production stage, the latter one requiring the most cpu.

thanx all for the input

[Eiko]

So try to use an external HD, I'm pretty sure this will make a difference.
As for Logic and the plugins, you'll have to install the AudioUnit versions of the plugins (if they're not already installed. Mostly installers do them all at once), because Logic doesn't use VST. But apart from that, once plugins are installed, they don't need to be reinstalled if you switch to another prog.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by notomorrow

Should there be different partitions like in windows?

Definitely no multiple partitions in OS X, unless you have a very good reason.

[djanthonyw]

Having multiple partitions will not make any difference in how the hard drive operates. It's the same thing as running a sequencer and running all of the audio on the same drive. Having two partitions does not make the HD run like two drives. In some cases it can make the drive run worse. The only reason someone should use two partitions is if they are booting with different operating systems.

[The Beatsmith]

Are you using 'soft clipping' on the arturia plugins?

[gdoubleyou]

OSX will always use part of the system drive for virtual memory.

As you add more tracks, instruments and effects, more virtual memory is required.

OSX will always be at the front of the line for access to system drive, and may delay other apps access.

Best practice is to have your projects on another hard drive to allow OSX to access the system drive when needed.

[a.e.neumann]

Originally Posted by Eiko

Also have you got things running in the background, that are using up processing power? Other apps, virus scanners, Spotlight? Have a look in the activity monitor, to see where all the power gets wasted.
Also check your startup items.

Good advice from Eiko.
With the Activity Monitor on, look at all active processes: which ones eat up a lot of RAM, which ones need much Virtual Memory (which usually tends to slow down harddisk performance) ?
Plugins can be very RAM-hungry. Eiko's advice re AU over VST is also very good.

Ableton clogged my MBP with 2GB RAM to a standstill. Had to ditch it (Ableton, not the MBP).

The RME FireFace will help, if maybe only marginally, as the driver is very frugal. RME handles a lot of stuff in its own hardware, very efficiently. With one exception: DigiCheck. DigiCheck, though slowly improved, is the Cookie Monster of RME. Better use it for hardware setup, then close it down when using any other software.

[notomorrow]

I really appreciate all your input

1 - I have a 100 bucks Seagate external hard drive - 1 TB, 5400 rpm that i just bought. Should I put all projects there and work on them from there with the hard drive plugged in?

2 - Will there be a significant improvement if besides that, I throw in another 4 gigs of ram on top of those 4 so end up with 8 gb of ram?

3 - I'm a bit confused - I opened a big project that is almost finished with plenty of tracks and plugs and the CPU meter in Abelton is at 50%. In the activity monitor is reads that Ableton is using 150 % CPU - Real Memory - 1.00 GB RAM ??? 1 GB is not 150%, is 25%... don't get it

4 - Didn't mind about soft clipping until now. But this feature is only to emulate a vintage sound right? Does it have something to do with CPU usage as well?

5 - Should I change my way of building projects? I'm thinking I could create a project start to finnish and work only on composition and structure and choose the instruments, then export all audio tracks and start working on processing and mixing. How do you guys work on your own projects?

tnx. you are being really helpfull

[The Beatsmith]

Soft clipping uses a ridiculous amount of CPU

[colony nofi]

I'd say that if you want to get the best performance out of your system, you should systematically go through it and identify where your issue is.

Drives.
No audio software will run well with your project data on the same drive as your OS. It comes down to the way the OS uses your hard drive. It is a huge bottle neck, and it cannot be stressed enough that you should work out a way to NOT have your projects on your OS drive. And retest before you do anything else.
I would recommend downloading blackmagic speed test which is VERY good at letting you know what your drives are doing. It also will let you know if your 1TB external drive (running at 5400rpm) is up to task. There are many different things to look out for with drives, but for audio, the following things are worth taking into account.
1./ FW400 offers 50MB/sec max throughput. This is much lower than a lot of drives will offer. FW800 offers 100MB/sec max, which is below many drives as well. USB2 is around 60MB/sec (without overheads - real world use will be LESS than this on all drives)
2./ A second internal drive mounted where your optical drive should give you excellent results. You can mount your optical drive in a USB enclosure. A new, 750GB 7200RPM western digital black drive in the optical bay of an OLD macbook pro I have gives me OVER 100MB/sec I/O. This is better than ANY FW800 drive. And its portable!
3./ Remember - higher capacity drives generally mean more data per platter, which INCREASES performance. A 1TB drive with 2 platters will run faster than a 1TB drive with 4 platters if running at the same rotational speed.
4./ 5400RPM drives are not recommended for audio use - they will be significantly slower than 7200RPM drives.

Unfortunately, since the thai floods, HD's are v expensive (some are double what I paid for a bunch only 3 months ago). These prices look like they'll remain high into 1Q 2012. But they'll eventually drop back down.

So - everything else aside, looking at your drive first would be the first thing I'd do. Grab your (not ideal, but it could be ok) 1TB 5400RPM drive, and benchmark it with blackmagic disk speed test. Note down the results in case you change your drive in the future!

Next. Ram. This is most important if you are using intensive VSTi's, less so with just VST's. However - OSX 10.7 does tend to eat ram, and even on my home media server, I've seen better performance since putting 8GB in my mac mini (rather than the stock 4GB). You will have to purchase a full 8GB though, as the macbook pro's that come with 4GB have 2x4GB sticks in them. So, as the MBP's only have 2 ram slots, you'll need 2 new sticks of ram. The good news is that 4GB sticks are VERY cheap right now. I recommend OWC as a great business to deal with - but there are plenty of places that sell compatible mac ram cheaper than apple! You'll need 204pin DDR3 so-dimms - just make sure you get the right type.

I'd say if you can afford it, go grab 8GB AFTER you have addressed your drive.

Next thing to look at would be your interface. Really, the only way you'll be able to work out how much this is effecting your system would be to compare it to other (well constructed and tested) benchmarks. I personally use metric halo interfaces (firewire) and am going to be moving AWAY from FW, as the low latency performance under OSX is horrid compared to other solutions. I'll be running an RME PCIe card inside a thunderbolt chassis as soon as they become available (sonnet or magma)

Finally (or even before looking into your interface) look at the processes that are running on your mac. Turn off spotlight if you don't need it - especially on your SECOND project drive. Don't try to run too much other software at the same time as ableton live. (I'd say run nothing else, but that's just me!)

Turn OFF any auto-updates. Build that into a weekly / monthly tech check / maintenance for your system.

I really hope that helps you achieve what you want to achieve. I personally think the new mac's are able to do amazing things in a portable system. But it does take some care, planning and research to get them to run as well as they can. And they won't do EVERYTHING - especially when compared to current top of the line desktops.

Cheers! Brendan.

[elvtnedge]

I have a MBP late 2008 c2d 2.4 and I had problems. Then I plugged in a 7200rpm external firewire drive and its amazing how much of a difference it makes. I'm just crossing over from Logic so I'm one of those guys putting reverb on every track as garageband doesn't have bussing.

The point it songs that would start and stop after 10 seconds on the internal drive play fully on the external.

[MacroMike]

I just picked up a 15" 2011 MBP i7 and it's rocking PT 10 HD stand alone pretty well. I'm running 24 tracks of audio on an external drive spinning 7200RPM. I'd used disk cache but I havent upgrade the ram yet. System drive is the standard 5400 RPM drive. I don't work with VIs much, but if I did I'd print to track once processing reserves started to get low.

[Jeezo]

I have run 600 track on a core 2 duo laptop (HP 8710w) back then ...when you guyz gonna realize that a system gotta be thinked around audio perf ...you will have make half of the step !

osx sucks , interface suks , ableton is ok ...if your drive is not good or your connection , be sure to compensate with a good cache witch is not the case with alot of 5400 rpm ..

Anyway i made run with a wd exteranl usb 2 600 track of audio ...

[Jeezo]

oh , when you hit the mixing stage (where syou supposed to hit fx heavy) you're supposed to have audio only man !!!

[zoff]

Originally Posted by MacroMike

I just picked up a 15" 2011 MBP i7 and it's rocking PT 10 HD stand alone pretty well. I'm running 24 tracks of audio on an external drive spinning 7200RPM. I'd used disk cache but I havent upgrade the ram yet. System drive is the standard 5400 RPM drive. I don't work with VIs much, but if I did I'd print to track once processing reserves started to get low.

The new audio engine in PT 10 is insane. As a test I ran a session off of a USB thumb drive. 24 tracks, about 60 plug-ins the CPU usage was at 11%, disk usage at 20%. Freakin' insane!

[notomorrow]

Hey

It's pretty clear for me now. Thanx so much for taking the time to explain.

So i guess it goes like this:

1 - test external Seagate 5400 rpm hard rive with black magic to see if its good enough
2 - if not, (most probably) buy new better external hard drive
3 - move projects to the hard drive
4 - throw in 8 gigs of ram
5 - buy new audio interface

and so I'll do!

Originally Posted by colony nofi

2./ A second internal drive mounted where your optical drive should give you excellent results. You can mount your optical drive in a USB enclosure. A new, 750GB 7200RPM western digital black drive in the optical bay of an OLD macbook pro I have gives me OVER 100MB/sec I/O. This is better than ANY FW800 drive. And its portable!

Man I really appreciate your input. big, big tnx. But I'm not sure I understand what mounting a hard drive in the USB enclosure really means... Isn't it enough if I just buy a good hard drive and plug it in the USB?

Please help me with one last thing: I'm not sure what hard drive should I buy exactly. Can you point out a model? What do you guys use?

Many thanks to all replies
gearslutz the best