Pro Tools HD Vs Nuendo

[Zep Dude]

I'm just wondering for those who say Nuendo "sounds better" how you qualify that and how you tested them?

I'm truly curious. We use Pro Tools HD with great front end converters (Benchmark) and clock (Isochrone) and a large host of slutty outboard gear well as a careful blend of the better plugins and the times we've compared our mixes to the exact same tracks done by other name engineers on large format consoles, ours stands up fine.

Of course there's always plenty of room to grow and improve so I'm just wondering how Nuendo might be a better tool if we were to adopt it instead of Pro Tools.

Anyone I know who's using Nuendo (and I do sometimes still hear the "Nuendo sounds better" claim once in a while) kind of just leaves that statement hanging. It's never like, we did a side by side test with the same tracks imported into both and blah blah blah. Its more like religion, people just seem to say, "its better" without ever qualifying it.

My question is this:

Can anyone say that using the same high quality outboard converters (take your pick) with a great external clock that just tracking 24 tracks into each DAW and playing them back at unity gain you will hear a difference? I'm not baiting, just very curious. I haven't done this test because it would take more time than I have available right now.

My next question is, once you start mixing (assuming your not using a large console) there are so many other factors, for example which plugins you use, whether or not those plugs sound better as native or TDM (they used to sound better as TDM most of the time, I haven't checked lately) summing internally or externally etc that how does one really qualify which sounds better? I suspect this is more like the old Neve Vs SSL type thing where there were some mixers who would say SSL sucked and did great Neve mixes and others who said Neve was lame and did great sounding SSL mixes (not the tool but how you use it).

I'm curious to know from those who have taken the time to listen and to work on both, what differences you heard? Were you mixing externally and just playing straight out or were you doing some submixing and plugins in Nuendo and then going to a large console, or all in the box?

[H-Rezz]

Originally Posted by Zep Dude

I'm just wondering for those who say Nuendo "sounds better" how you qualify that and how you tested them?

I'm truly curious. We use Pro Tools HD with great front end converters (Benchmark) and clock (Isochrone) and a large host of slutty outboard gear well as a careful blend of the better plugins and the times we've compared our mixes to the exact same tracks done by other name engineers on large format consoles, ours stands up fine.

Of course there's always plenty of room to grow and improve so I'm just wondering how Nuendo might be a better tool if we were to adopt it instead of Pro Tools.

Anyone I know who's using Nuendo (and I do sometimes still hear the "Nuendo sounds better" claim once in a while) kind of just leaves that statement hanging. It's never like, we did a side by side test with the same tracks imported into both and blah blah blah. Its more like religion, people just seem to say, "its better" without ever qualifying it.

My question is this:

Can anyone say that using the same high quality outboard converters (take your pick) with a great external clock that just tracking 24 tracks into each DAW and playing them back at unity gain you will hear a difference? I'm not baiting, just very curious. I haven't done this test because it would take more time than I have available right now.

My next question is, once you start mixing (assuming your not using a large console) there are so many other factors, for example which plugins you use, whether or not those plugs sound better as native or TDM (they used to sound better as TDM most of the time, I haven't checked lately) summing internally or externally etc that how does one really qualify which sounds better? I suspect this is more like the old Neve Vs SSL type thing where there were some mixers who would say SSL sucked and did great Neve mixes and others who said Neve was lame and did great sounding SSL mixes (not the tool but how you use it).

I'm curious to know from those who have taken the time to listen and to work on both, what differences you heard? Were you mixing externally and just playing straight out or were you doing some submixing and plugins in Nuendo and then going to a large console, or all in the box?

Zep , personally i wouldn't lose any sleep over what is better between programs , simple answer is they are both great and have their strengths and weaknesses . I'm a Logic users and i also have P.tools , the least of our concerns these day's is pulling a decentc sound out of the choices available , whether that is Logic.P.tools,Nuendo or DP ., the main thing is, are you happy with P.tools ? does it sound good for your music ? if the answer is yes, that's all that matters .

[Henchman]

Not again.

Those of us not using PT's HD are doing it because we like the superior editing options and speed of Nuendo.

If you want to use PT's HD, go right ahead.
I'll save the money and spend it on fun things. Like trips to Europe, and a new car.

[Geert van den Berg]

Do a search on the forum, this has been covered quite a lot of times already.

But offcourse you're free to post about this subject again, if you dare...

(this is probably going to be a long thread again, I'll pass )

[George Necola]

damned geert!

you are demotivated *slap*

common! up again for another round of protools VS. nuendo.. *slap*

then again: PC vs. MAC *slap*



I prefer nuendo.. .. and PC..


cheers

[andredb]

PT TDM= waste of money

yet, an LE system could be HAndy for Compatiblity and a few fancy functyon like beat detective (is it multitrack also in LE now... right??)

Get them Both...

And Steinberg Stuff has better controllers, from 200$ up... WK audio is impressive as opposed to that crap overpriced piece of plastic called DControl...

Also if you go The nuendo/cubase Route have a system set up by someone as a turnkey system...so you have to refere to 1 supplyer for assistance.

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally Posted by andredb

And Steinberg Stuff has better controllers, from 200$ up... WK audio is impressive as opposed to that crap overpriced piece of plastic called DControl...

Now how about backing up that statement by getting into a mature discussion ?. Or was this just part of a 'looking cool' post ?

So ... I'll start : What exactly do you think is so impressive on the WKA controller as opposed to D control ?

[andredb]

Price? build quality? compatibility? engineering?
Did I mention price?
Also a better Look, but thats me...

[andredb]

GHH.....

[/quote]

HEHEHE I feel you...

OKOK I agre this Thread Should Die...

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally Posted by andredb

Price? build quality? compatibility? engineering?
Did I mention price?
Also a better Look, but thats me...

Ok ... that's a start :

- Price : hmmmm ... well I kinda felt the WK Audio controller was kinda expensive because of it's rather limited functionality it offered when it comes down to mixing.

There is virtually no automation possible on that controller and questions towards future development and updates are professionally avoided by the usual 'we're working on it'.

But I think there's also a reason why Steinberg never really 'pushed' it marketing wise as a Controller. Because they were never able to finish it really. So as for Expensive ? I don't know but in my book, Spending 5 $ on something that is not fully functional, and has no future development chances whatsoever, and is allready outdated by it's own software at the time it came available .... well ... that's 5 $ out the window ...

Compatibility :

Mentioned it above : At the time of it's release it was already outdated with it's own software. And it has still not caught up. The ID is a controller of broken promises that where never fulfilled . Please prove me wrong and when you do ... please tell me why at EVERY demo I've had on the unit - MIXING and AUTOMATION is AVOIDED as if it where the pest.


Engineering :

Have you seen either ? Touched either ? played / worked on either ? Please convince me you have been within a 10 foot range of either because I'm starting to think you've only seen them on pictures :

So :

- Faders : how do you feel they compare ? How smooth are the ID's faders in your humble opinion ? Are they closer to what a high end console would feel like or are they closer to what say the first yamaha O2R's plastic faders feel like ?

I'd say they are the same as the Yamaha's.

- Buttons : how about build quality of those buttons on what you might call the 'main' section. I actually saw one pop up after the demo guy pushed it but hey ... you know ... those units at demo shows suffer a lot right ? Sure I'll hand them that but it did make me take a closer look to how they are aligned for example. Both horizontally and vertically. Now now now ... maybe the guy who build that unit was drunk or high when he put in the buttons ...

- Chassis : uhm ... you mentioned plastic for a D control ? well if you had seen a D control up close and touched it you would have noticed that the enitre chassis and stand and every top plate that houses buttons and sections is actually metal. Yes ... quite solid and quite heavy as well.

As for the ID chassis : Probably there's some metal construction to it ... (I hope) ... but it's well hidden ...


You know what ? I suddenly realize we might be talking about 2 different things :

You're talking about The ID controller from WK Audio right ? Just want to make sure.

Anyhow .... You mentioned price again at the end of your post so I'll mention it again as well :

If the ID would costs something in the range of an average midi controller like the tascam us2400 for example I would say you have a killer deal. Hell it could even cost twice as much as that one and you'd still have a killer deal.

To me personally, the only 'high end' section on the ID controller is the Jog wheel and what it does. But 16k for a jog wheel is still an awful lot of money.

[C.Lambrechts]

Dammit ... I forgot to mention look :


Indeed ... that's personal ... if you like the ID look better , well ... who am I to say that isn't so right ?

It only makes me wonder once again if you've seen one for real ? Or if you go by wide angle pictures taken by a good photographer and photoshopped into an add.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Not again.

Those of us not using PT's HD are doing it because we like the superior editing options and speed of Nuendo.

If you want to use PT's HD, go right ahead.
I'll save the money and spend it on fun things. Like trips to Europe, and a new car.

have you learned anything henchie? how about adding IMO to your posts? you'll come off better and people might actually listen to what you say, trust me.

btw, i use PTHD and STILL go on multiple trips every year and can drive a nice new car whenever i want. life is good. relax.

[joris de man]

I recall Nika doing a test quite a while back of which the results were afaik that sonically there is no audible difference between the major DAW packages.
There is no reason why, with some quality ADDA, clocking and outboard Nuendo should sound any worse/better than PT.
I suppose for a while, Nuendo might have had the upper hand because of full latency compensation; but I don't know if that's still the case, as PT has it now as well, although I don't know if that's through the entire mixing path or not.
The floating point versus fixed point debate also still rages on, but I've not heard any conclusive evidence that one is better than the other.

Native plugins can potentially sound better than their dsp counterparts, because they can go to higher bit depths internally. I'm not technical enough to know whether there's any advantage going over 64 bit processing internally. I do know that digi dumbed down some of the native counterparts in the past of TDM plugins to strengthen the argument for using TDM versions..D-verb springs to mind, as do others. But again, not sure if that's still the case these days.

Since there is so little sonic difference between platforms these days it really comes down to the user interface and what you use it for.
I switched to Nuendo because a) as a lonely composer I couldn't keep up with the investment path needed to maintain a PT rig (nubus to pci to PT24 to PT24mix to OSX to....aaaw...feck it)
b) I don't like OS X
c) Nuendo offered me both audio editing that was more comprehensive/faster than PT and a midi solution at the same time that although not without its faults, I liked better than Logic.
d) in the same way that I grew tired of the PT upgrade path, I grew tired of the Mac upgrade path as well. I'm now on a custom built dual opteron rig and I haven't looked back since.

It really comes down to what works for you. If PT gives you the audio quality you want with the UI/Editing tools you like then great!
I prefer this, but you are not me, and I'm not you:)
One thing I do miss are some of PT's plugins; luckily, gradually more of those are making it over to VST..and there are other solutions such as the powercore and uad cards which offer similar quality plugs.

So..if you're happy with what you've got..stick to it. If you're interested in something else..give it a whirl.
Editing wise I think you might be surprised. Audio quality wise I don't think you'll notice any difference...

Cheers,

Joris

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by drew

have you learned anything henchie? how about adding IMO to your posts?

btw, i use PTHD and STILL go on multiple trips every year and can drive a nice new car whenever i want. life is good. relax.

I did say "Those of us NOT Using PT's"

[drew]

cool, baby steps

[joris de man]

Hey Hench,

I saw you are fluent in dutch! How come? Are you originally dutch? Just curious...

Sorry to take it OT:)

Cheers,

Joe

[ILL]

I'm sure someone(who somehow owns both) could make a mix to compare the two daws and then the moderator could make this a sticky and end these stupid debates...

[C.Lambrechts]

Originally Posted by joris de man

Hey Hench,

I saw you are fluent in dutch! How come? Are you originally dutch? Just curious...

Sorry to take it OT:)

Cheers,

Joe

Yeah ... Hench kicked my butt one time when I took a language swing at him .... and did it in FULL glory ... it still hurts ...

If I remember correctly he has dutch roots


Sinds die post heb ik veel respect voor hem ....

[amost]

Originally Posted by ILL

I'm sure someone(who somehow owns both) could make a mix to compare the two daws and then the moderator could make this a sticky and end these stupid debates...

Well this is not that but it's in the ballpark sorta. When I had Digi 001 I had Nuendo installed also & with the Digi ASIO driver you could use the Digi Hardware & I recorded similar things & also played back the same things recorded and came to my own conclusions. Come to learn my methods weren't as scientific as I thought so my experiments were flawed but I still have an opinion but can't prove it. hah.

I learned a few things about the panning laws though and when you bounce something in each platform depending on where you have PT panned & all that...the differences.

I still think somebody who has a PTHD rig and could get a hold of Nuendo & use the ASIO Drivers with the PT hardware could come up with some test...or not.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by joris de man

Hey Hench,

I saw you are fluent in dutch! How come? Are you originally dutch? Just curious...

Sorry to take it OT:)

Cheers,

Joe

Ik heb 17 jaar in Nederland gewoond. Van mijn 7de tot mijn 25ste verjaardag.
Ik heb in een aantal plaatsen gewoond. Zundert, Achtmaal (vlak bij de belgische grens), Etten-Leur en Breda.

[jlotto]

I dont understand why Steinberg or Magix or someone never made a DSP card to hold the tracks and fx. Just recently PCs have gotten powerful enough to handle big loads of trks and plugins while PT and the TDM cards had the 10year headstart.

What if TC Powercore or UA UAD-1 offered a DSP card that holds 32 digital audio trks/mixer? they could make a dent.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by jlotto

What if TC Powercore or UA UAD-1 offered a DSP card that holds 32 digital audio trks/mixer? they could make a dent.

Becasue you don't really need that anynore.
The difference is that Nuendo is way more efficient. I can run more plug-ins and tracks in Nuendo, than you can in LE or PT's Mpowered.

People are running 100+ tracks using MADI cards from s aingle computer with Nuendo.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by jlotto

What if TC Powercore or UA UAD-1 offered a DSP card that holds 32 digital audio trks/mixer? they could make a dent.

That's exactly what I was thinking...

There are already cards/interfaces with mixing/routing capabilities, but those won't run any plugins.

Why doesn't TC make an interface which has good converters like on the TC6000 system with Powercore functionality where plugs can be used both in the monitoring and the mixing path, the latter just as it is now. If you pair that with any native DAW you can come close to TDM functionality.

[Zep Dude]

I was really only interested in the sound quality, if any, between the two.

I understand there are arguements for using both. Our investment in PT has already been made, and has paid for itself so unless there is some blatant sonic advantage to Nuendo it wouldn't make sense to switch.

Also for us it's compatibility. This is not an opinion but fact, in NYC Studios, Pro Tools is what Studers used to be -every room in every major studio has it. Nuendo has to be rented or brought in by the client, the assistants aren't trained on it they way they can zip on PT.

However, if Nuendo was proven to sonically be superior, it would keep me up late at night knowing our mixes could sound better until I'd caved in and got it.

[jlotto]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Becasue you don't really need that anynore.
The difference is that Nuendo is way more efficient. I can run more plug-ins and tracks in Nuendo, than you can in LE or PT's Mpowered.

People are running 100+ tracks using MADI cards from s aingle computer with Nuendo.

i thought we were talking about Nuendo vs Pt HD accel (not LE or M Powered)

i dont know how anyone can even attempt to mix on LE with no ADC but people have gotten good results

[HDGuru]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I did say "Those of us NOT Using PT's"

All three of you?

[nikki-k]

Hi!
I own both PT HD (HD4 Accel) and Nuendo (currently using ver 3.2).

With nothing touched, no FX, etc- the difference in "sound" is...nothing. I use Nuendo on my HD system (prefer it for composing once in awhile- like being a writer, and sitting in a different room...or going to the cabin in the woods on the lake), so the converters are the same. Using Blue Sky SYstem One 5.1 monitor system.

If one understands digital audio engineering, and understands their system, I seriously do not see (or hear) a reason to prefer one over the other "sound-wise." There isn't a discernable difference to me.

That said...IMO, I think that some people just want to believe in what they have. Or, they want to have a "stance" on things. I could care less. I try out different tools, and then keep what feels good. Each tool can do things the other cannot, or maybe just does so in a different manner.

I have yet to have anyone present a truly accurate and easy to receate discription and scenario displaying this "difference in sound." Feel better NOT giving Digi any money? Cool! Feel better not giving Steiny any money? Woohoo! Work "faster" with PT? CUbase? SAW? Congrats!

Whatever it takes, simply use that...if it will make you happy with the result you get. It's just simple, old fashioned, aural masturbation anyway. Good luck.