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Vienna Ensemble Pro..Is it a ram hog.
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Lenzo
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28th June 2011
Old 28th June 2011
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Vienna Ensemble Pro..Is it a ram hog.

I have a 2008 Mac 8 core with 16 GB of ram. I was thinking about buying VE Pro and had read some posts about it using a lot of ram. I want to run it on the same machine as Pro Tools 9. I was wondering if anyone was running it in a similar way and what your experience was, especially regarding ram usage. I already get "out of cpu" messages in PT and was also wondering how much cpu it used.
Thanks,
L.
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28th June 2011
Old 28th June 2011
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Ensemble pro is just a host machine. How much ram you use is up to you. The only downside is that it can only be inserted as an instrument which is unfortunate as it would be great to be able to use it as an insert effect chain and then do that processing on another computer.

Are the out of cpu messages due to pro tools bad use of cores ? Or are you just out of CPU. Logic has some issues with core sharing so I assume perhaps pro tools is similar. It really is meant more for something you would run on another computer but you can use it in your case if pro tools can only access 4 gigs of ram again i'm not familiar with protools 9
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28th June 2011
Old 28th June 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenzo View Post
I have a 2008 Mac 8 core with 16 GB of ram. I was thinking about buying VE Pro and had read some posts about it using a lot of ram. I want to run it on the same machine as Pro Tools 9. I was wondering if anyone was running it in a similar way and what your experience was, especially regarding ram usage. I already get "out of cpu" messages in PT and was also wondering how much cpu it used.
Thanks,
L.
PT isn't very efficient with VIs. VEPro running outside of PT9 hosting Kontakt, Play, etc is way more effective - far more ram, etc. You could split the core allocations between VEPro and PT and get far more out of your system (at least this works brilliantly on PC/Win7x64, but should be fine on OSX as well).

It uses as much ram as the sample libraries/VIs need, but with 16G, you'll run out of cpu power before ram most likely. There is a 30-day demo for VEPro - I would suggest giving it a try (you'll need a syncrosoft/Steinberg/Vienna key).

@MadforBrad - you can run VEPro on another system - it's no different than running it outside of your host on the same system.
Lenzo
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28th June 2011
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Well I also have a PPC Quad Core running Leopard, but wasn't sure if VE pro would run on a PPC Mac. Specs on their site seemed to indicate it would not.
L.
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29th June 2011
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VE Pro is an excellent app, when hosting VI´s. The best part is that it remembers all your settings in the Master VE Pro plugin in the main DAW.
So when you load the PT session all instruments load autmatically in the VE Pro app, when you run in network mode.

As standalone VE Pro is quite good too , but I compared it to Mainstage 2 using them as a Reverb HOST, and then the CPU usage was higher in VE Pro, even though it was the same reverb plugins they hosted.
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30th June 2011
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Please tell us more about VEP. I'd love to demo but need to buy a key- pain the ass I must say.

Long story short: I use PT9 and Play is the only plugin that crashes the DAW and causes assertion/memory errors. According to Play my session sample counts are around 1-2 gigs (I have 12 gigs of RAM). I'd be purchasing VEP in hopes of ending this annoying 32 bit limitation.

Can any VEP users please chime in and tell me how I would go about printing 50 tracks of Play Instruments (all mics) thru VEP server in Pro Tools? Would I manage Play output busses in VEP or thru PT plugin busses?
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4th July 2011
Old 4th July 2011
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Hi Dave,

Using Vienna Ensemble Pro as a plug-in inside of Pro Tools, you would set each output of Play in VE PRO to an Aux track in Pro Tools. As KDM said, try out the 30 day demo.

Since Play is still 32 bit at this point, you won't be able to utilize more than 4 GB in total using Vienna Ensemble PRO but this is separate from Pro Tools so you can still load about 4 GB of instruments in Pro Tools. When Play does become 64 bit, you can fully utilize your Ram in VE PRO for Play instruments.

Note, many users have reported significant performance in VE PRO compared to loading virtual instruments inside of Pro Tools. This is because VE Pro hosts Audio Units plug-ins and doesn't use RTAS like Pro Tools.
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Lenzo
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5th July 2011
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Well I went ahead and bought it...I'm so frustrated with PT9...this can't be any worse than using PT alone. I still think it's ridiculous that PT9 is only 32 bit, but if VE Pro makes it run smoother, than at least I can get some work done without having to constantly re-boot and put up with the beachball.
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6th July 2011
Old 6th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by composingkeys3 View Post
Hi Dave,

Since Play is still 32 bit at this point, you won't be able to utilize more than 4 GB in total using Vienna Ensemble PRO
Unless, of course, you switch to Windows 7 x64. In that case Play 2 will run fine and trouble-free in full 64-bit splendor...
Lenzo
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6th July 2011
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As I understand it, on a Mac , you can open as many instances of VEPro as you need to utilize all of your ram.
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6th July 2011
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To be honest, the whole point of VEP is to be a Ram Hog. It enables you (when running in 64 BIT Server Mode on a 64 Bit OS) to use all of your system's Ram.

As to whether or not it uses more Ram for the same plugs as say Pro Tools or Logic, I'd say the answer is no. It uses AU, same as Logic and way more efficient than Pro Tools' RTAS.

Thanks,

Scott
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6th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenzo View Post
Well I went ahead and bought it...I'm so frustrated with PT9...this can't be any worse than using PT alone. I still think it's ridiculous that PT9 is only 32 bit, but if VE Pro makes it run smoother, than at least I can get some work done without having to constantly re-boot and put up with the beachball.
L.
A while ago I was in the same boat frustrated with Pro Tools only being able to access < 4GB RAM as well as it's ineffiency with VI's and plugs in general (RTAS).

VEP changed the game completely. I now feel like there is no limitations whatsoever (I have 64GB of RAM in my Mac Pro). It truly is a game changer- especially when working alongside Pro Tools. I can't even imagine having to work w. Pro Tools w.out VE Pro anymore.


Scott
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6th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrorboy View Post
A while ago I was in the same boat frustrated with Pro Tools only being able to access < 4GB RAM as well as it's ineffiency with VI's and plugs in general (RTAS).

VEP changed the game completely. I now feel like there is no limitations whatsoever (I have 64GB of RAM in my Mac Pro). It truly is a game changer- especially when working alongside Pro Tools. I can't even imagine having to work w. Pro Tools w.out VE Pro anymore.


Scott
Well thanks for that. I didn't have a key to demo it...but reviews have been really favorable. Good to hear that it's working well alongside of PT.
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11th July 2011
Old 11th July 2011
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If play loads in VePro, this would be too good to be true, so it's probably not...can Kontakt 4 load into VePro?
TNM
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11th July 2011
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how much latency for real time midi keyboard playing does ve pro add by being on the same machine? Always been curious about this
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11th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdegregorio View Post
If play loads in VePro, this would be too good to be true, so it's probably not...can Kontakt 4 load into VePro?
Yes, and yes.
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11th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
how much latency for real time midi keyboard playing does ve pro add by being on the same machine? Always been curious about this
None.
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11th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdegregorio View Post
If play loads in VePro, this would be too good to be true, so it's probably not...can Kontakt 4 load into VePro?
PLAY works fantastic in VE PRO as does Kontakt.


Scott
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11th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
how much latency for real time midi keyboard playing does ve pro add by being on the same machine? Always been curious about this
Hey TNM-

When I set the buffer in PT to 256 and am triggering a VI, say Ivory, in VE Pro, there is no noticeable latency when paying. It plays great. You can also go lower if you like.


Scott
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12th July 2011
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ip protocol

Not that I know any of it, but an engineer once mentioned to me, that it would be better to use MADI to send audio over to a DAW and not have it send with an IP protocol, which is used by VEPro.
Can anyone make a qualified statement about this?

I cannot and what I´m saying could be very wrong!
Also, I dont want to diss any of the VSL stuff which I really like and use intensely.
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12th July 2011
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Thanks for the responses I am going to purchase this little monster.
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13th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
Thanks for the responses I am going to purchase this little monster.
Right on! VE Pro is a true game changer. It can be a bit tricky to get setup. Couple things to remember:

If you're using PT,

Open both the 32 Bit VE Pro server and 64 Bit VE Pro Server before opening your session. Or before opening PT rather.

Set the VE Pro instances (within PT) to a buffer of 2. Select Decouple (this greatly improves stability). Then, each VE Pro host, the 32 Bit host and the 64 Bit host you will save as well. If you don't click decouple, the VE Pro servers will automatically link to the session which sounds great in theory but in my and others' experiences it much less stable. It's very easy to just save each server instance. Works absolutely rock solid.

Also, if your going to change the buffer in PT, say from mixing at 512 or 1024 to tracking at 256, not a bad idea to save the VE Pro Server sessions, close out those VE Pro server sessions, change the buffer in PT, quit PT and then open everything back up again. (It's not as big of a deal a it seems- once you get the hang of it you'll fly with it- super easy).

Scott

P.S. FYI I run PT, VE Pro 32 Bit Server and 64 Bit Server all on my single Mac Pro 12 Core 64 GB RAM.
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13th July 2011
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Thanks Scott for that info. I'm setting up a TV/Film scoring workstation built on PT 9 and VePro and your set up really helps my very impending purchase.

I've been waiting for the mac pro refresh and will be getting the most hp and ram capability they have based on your set up.

How much ram do you actually use in a standard session? The whole 64 GB in a session? What size Vienna sample set do you run as a template?

I'm trying to get a sample size, number of instruments to RAM comparison.

I'm hoping the new mac pro's are 120+ GB of ram, 16 core sandy bridge with thunderbolt! Rack mount and I'd have to dump my girlfriend for the Mac....lol.
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13th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrorboy View Post
Right on! VE Pro is a true game changer. It can be a bit tricky to get setup. Couple things to remember:

If you're using PT,

Open both the 32 Bit VE Pro server and 64 Bit VE Pro Server before opening your session. Or before opening PT rather.

Set the VE Pro instances (within PT) to a buffer of 2. Select Decouple (this greatly improves stability). Then, each VE Pro host, the 32 Bit host and the 64 Bit host you will save as well. If you don't click decouple, the VE Pro servers will automatically link to the session which sounds great in theory but in my and others' experiences it much less stable. It's very easy to just save each server instance. Works absolutely rock solid.

Also, if your going to change the buffer in PT, say from mixing at 512 or 1024 to tracking at 256, not a bad idea to save the VE Pro Server sessions, close out those VE Pro server sessions, change the buffer in PT, quit PT and then open everything back up again. (It's not as big of a deal a it seems- once you get the hang of it you'll fly with it- super easy).

Scott

P.S. FYI I run PT, VE Pro 32 Bit Server and 64 Bit Server all on my single Mac Pro 12 Core 64 GB RAM.
Do you know if decoupling has the same effect with Cubase? Heard anything about that?

Cheers.
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13th July 2011
Old 13th July 2011
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I've switched to doing all my VI stuff in PT9 through one instance of VEPro (32 bit) and it is so much more stable than opening all the separate VI's in Pro Tools it's untrue... things like flicking through patches in Omnisphere was a nightmare in PT9 but hosting those plugins in VEPro makes everything much happier and I can get on with work! x
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13th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MustacheVerra View Post
Do you know if decoupling has the same effect with Cubase? Heard anything about that?

Cheers.
To be honest I don't know about Cubase. This was info that I got from the VSL forum from a mod. It made quite a noticeable improvement. I started doing everything this way about a week after I got it and haven't touched a thing since- rock solid.

Think of it this way: the less stuff your DAW is responsible for doing, remembering, recalling, etc...the better, the more stable it will be. And when you decouple your ridding your DAW of the responsibility of remembering/knowing which VE Pro instances you had instantiated and I believe their settings as well (although I may be mistaken on that as that could be saved in the framework itself...ie the ve pro host).

Again though, I can only speak for Pro Tools so you shoud probably cruise over to the VSL site to be sure in regards to Cubase.

Cheers,

Scott
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13th July 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdegregorio View Post
Thanks Scott for that info. I'm setting up a TV/Film scoring workstation built on PT 9 and VePro and your set up really helps my very impending purchase.

I've been waiting for the mac pro refresh and will be getting the most hp and ram capability they have based on your set up.

How much ram do you actually use in a standard session? The whole 64 GB in a session? What size Vienna sample set do you run as a template?

I'm trying to get a sample size, number of instruments to RAM comparison.

I'm hoping the new mac pro's are 120+ GB of ram, 16 core sandy bridge with thunderbolt! Rack mount and I'd have to dump my girlfriend for the Mac....lol.
Hey man-

Yes, VE Pro along side PT is great for anything. There's really no limits w/ this combination.

I've yet to use all 64 GB Ram but I'm stoked I have it. I plan to have this Mac for a while. One of my 64 bit templates uses just under 26GB RAM. Then, of course, the 32 Bit server template just under 3GB RAM. Then theirs PT also under 3GB RAM...then there's the OS. A lot of people will be surprised to know that OS X can use up to 7GB RAM if it's avail. I first heard this from a rep at OWC but had never seen it myself.

Still- I never even think about RAM or have RAM issues. Definitely go the OWC route if your getting a Mac. They're great and have a lifetime warranty. You can also go 96GB RAM in the current Mac Pros but I think you actually take a step back. I think they go from 1333Mhz Triple Wide to 1033Mhz or Double Wide or something not as good when you go up to 96GB RAM. You'd have to be doing some pretty nutty stuff to need that much, anyways.

The best part about it is once the templates loaded, no waiting. Everything just sits in the RAM and is always immediately available.


--

All of that said, you may want to put some thought into buying a Mac Pro now (with SL) vs buying one later (as in next week or whenever it is) when they'll ship with Lion (although you may be able to just install SL- not sure, heard it both ways). Either way, I'm sure if you go down the Mac Pro, OWC RAM, PT 9 and VE PRo route it will be great!

Best of luck!

Scott

P.S. Keep in my mind that massive 26GB RAM VE Pro 64 BIT Server template I mentioned allows me to have instant access to pretty much everything I need: Drums (Superior 2), Slate Trigger, Tons and Tons of stuff in Kontakt (more than one Kontakt instance), PLAY 3 (more than one instance with strings, cellos, etc), IK Soft Synths, Omni, Trilian Bass, Stylus RMX etc, etc, etc......I just loaded up everything I need so it's there...no waiting....no crashing...just works and it works immediately. SSD's are a plus too!
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13th July 2011
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One more important thing I forgot to mention about VE Pro that pertains to Pro Tools only:

It's important that in VE Pro Server's settings (which are minimal) that you set the MIDI I/O to 16. No more than that. I don't why but the fine people at VSL make it a point.

This is not a limiting factor because there are another 16 within each of those (something like that) that you have access to w/in VE Pro.

--

Once you get it set up and running it's really a piece of cake. It sounds daunting at first but once things are set- you literally can just forget it and enjoy making music without many of the limitations and hassles of modern-day computers & DAWs.

Scott
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14th July 2011
Old 14th July 2011
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Thanks Scott, really great info...stuff I need to know right now because I'm making those critical purchasing decisions I'll be living with for a while.

I made the mistake of buying a pre-intel G5 a few years ago and am trying to avoid that so I'm taking my time and I fixed up an inexpensive i7 4 core Win 7 desktop PC with 16 GB ram (maxed out) and got that up and running to test configurations and it turned out pretty well.

I'm going to be using that while I wait for the new mac. I don't enjoy the tech stuff, I like to make music so I want a system I'll have for a few years without having to think about processor speeds all the time. Concentrate on music.

People I know are keeping VePro up all the time and using sleep mode on their computer so they don't have to load are reload huge sample collections.

I'm doing large orchestral Vienna sample instuments, SD2, Kontakt, PLAY so the more RAM capacity the better although from what you said, I'll stick to maybe 40GB to start and think about getting the fastest RAM so if I upgrade RAM speed won't be a problem.

The people I know doing alot of TV scoring are using 64 GB in their 12 core macs but I don't know if they use it all.

Thanks again, very much appreciate your time and the info.
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