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THIS is why plugins are the way forward.
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#2251
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Yet on the very first sentence of his website he states/highlights what piece of HARDWARE he has.

"Hi, my name is Ken. I've been a top major label Mixer / Producer / Songwriter / Musician for 20 years now, and I have my own world class SSL Mix Room."

Pros can and should be able to use all tools but he has put his own money in hardware and uses that fact as his opening marketing pitch to potential clients. Looking at the rest of his site besides the obvious marketing of the big names he has worked with (which most guys with credits list them) he doesn't even mention plugins. He does highlight "instant recall" but that could be referring to the SSL too. When he sells all his hardware and centers his marketing around plugins then I think it will be newsworthy. The rest is just old news, the ability to use both hardware and plugs with the amount of recalls and budget being the most determinate factors as to what gets used.

It's still a good link to check out though for the ITB guys.
Ken mix the same way I do,the ability to use hardware is great.

It's just funny that there are so many negative comments about how bad Plugins sound,but ken clearly use more Plugins on that mix at least.

As I said before some guys are just stubborn old dogs,but ken video clear show the real use of Plugins.

And he mentioned hardware,but one look and you'll notice that's all he does is mention hardware LOL.

Either way I'm happy, because I already knew the truth,and I strongly believe it don't get no better then ken's work on 50's mixes.

Plugins are good enough for him,but are unusable to others,its not the gear its the guy.

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#2252
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Ken mix the same way I do,the ability to use hardware is great.

It's just funny that there are so many negative comments about how bad Plugins sound,but ken clearly use more Plugins on that mix at least.

As I said before some guys are just stubborn old dogs,but ken video clear show the real use of Plugins.

And he mentioned hardware,but one look and you'll notice that's all he does is mention hardware LOL.

Either I'm happy because I already knew the truth,and I strongly believe it don't get no better then ken.

Plugins are good enough for him,bit are unusable to others,its not the gear its the guy.

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i LOVE plugins. but i also personally LOVE hardware, specifically my SSL console. On my mixing site, i have a full write up about my Mixing Philosophy here....

Ken Lewis Mixing Philosophy | Analog / Digital Hybrid

I actually go in depth about marrying plugins with hardware, and i provide my whole plugins list under my "TOYS" nav button, though i havent updated since i got all of the UAD plugins.

plugins can do some pretty amazing things. so can hardware. Not sure why this is still a debate.
#2253
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2253
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Thanks Ken for sharing. I enjoyed reading it.


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#2254
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
i LOVE plugins. but i also personally LOVE hardware, specifically my SSL console. On my mixing site, i have a full write up about my Mixing Philosophy here....

Ken Lewis Mixing Philosophy | Analog / Digital Hybrid

I actually go in depth about marrying plugins with hardware, and i provide my whole plugins list under my "TOYS" nav button, though i havent updated since i got all of the UAD plugins.

plugins can do some pretty amazing things. so can hardware. Not sure why this is still a debate.
Thank you ken for chimming in!

I'm only trying to create a sense of realism on this thread.

There have been so much bs about not only processing Plugins,but also about virtual instruments or digital instruments.

There are so many lies on this thread it should not only be closed,but deleted!

And clearly some are out of touch with contemporary music.

I don't think there's one real instrument in the song 'down on me'.which is perfectly fine.

But the same guys say CGI does not look believable,again a lie


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#2255
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooohhh2 View Post
Thanks Ken for sharing. I enjoyed reading it.


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+1!

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#2256
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2256
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I agree 110% with Ken !

Even many of the plugins from the PT 5 era are excellent IMO; I use many of them and would be lost without them for the style of music I produce. Like I've said before, if you could travel thru a time machine and go back to 1985 with a G4 based PT 5 mix plus system (w/ full assortment of plugins from that era) that rig would be worth $1million and you'd have engineers of that time trying to kill each other for access to it.

Ken is 110% correct in that the marriage of plugins and hardware is where it's at in 2012 and beyond; you need both, and anybody who says that hardware and 2" tape is all you need is probably recording Lynard Skynard 70s style rock with a 20 track count, tops!

The problem with ITB and plugins is the SUMMING !! Like I said, even PT 5 era plugins sound frickin amazing when summed thru a nice LFAC. Most on here would shit their pants to hear the lowly Dverb plugin thru a single channel on my Trident Series 80 and a 6 db boost of 12k. It sounds as good (or better) than the most expensive verb plugin today summed ITB.

Yeah for hip hop, top 40 sleaze cheese or 10 track count folk/jazz you can probably get away with summing ITB. But for 10,000 track count nu-metal with 10,000 guitar riffs, and a real drummer with 16 mics on the kit IT SIMPLY AINT GONNA HAPPEN !!

#2257
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Lewis View Post
plugins can do some pretty amazing things. so can hardware. Not sure why this is still a debate.
Well said. Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
Most on here would shit their pants to hear the lowly Dverb plugin thru a single channel on my Trident Series 80 and a 6 db boost of 12k. It sounds as good (or better) than the most expensive verb plugin today summed ITB.
Dood, you get a double . I LOVED D-Verb... for years. Now that you bring it up, I might have to go back. And a little EQ on the back end is really the trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
There are so many lies on this thread it should not only be closed,but deleted!
I hear you about the lies... to an extent. But I do find it a bit funny that you'd like this thread closed or deleted, when you are the primary one who keeps re-stiring the pot.
#2258
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2258
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Ken, glad you chimed in. The debate that gets dragged out is mostly by guys claiming one format can replace/equal the other. You have come to the same conclusion as myself by getting your hands dirty that as each has benifits it also has it's own set of compromises. Hybrid here too with a large frame analog desk (with another digitally controlled analog large frame desk waiting to be updated and used) and outboard besides the computers. I'm weak in the very good outboard EQ department but that's big bucks and on the horizon for me someday. Picking the best of what both have to offer is something I see more people jumping on board with.
#2259
15th May 2012
Old 15th May 2012
  #2259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tha]-[acksaw View Post



I hear you about the lies... to an extent. But I do find it a bit funny that you'd like this thread closed or deleted, when you are the primary one who keeps re-stiring the pot.
As I said only to bring 'some' truth to this thread.

Truth is ken done a great job just showing 20 minutes of his work flow.I heard and liked the song for almost 2 years now.

Then to hear it raw,IMHO could've been sum in many different ways but will still sound amazing,based on the video.

Plugins work great when used correctly..



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#2260
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Plugins work great when used correctly...

And sometimes, when used incorrectly...




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#2261
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
And sometimes, when used incorrectly...




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#2262
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Plugins work great when used correctly.
How do you Define "correctly" in the context of this thread ??
#2263
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_subsonic View Post
How do you Define "correctly" in the context of this thread ??
Plugins will overload and distort before a 32 bit float daw will.

That's the one thing that helped me,it was something I didn't know.

Another is over using Plugins just because you have a powerful computer.

Sometimes less is more.

So again Plugins are great if you use them correctly...

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#2264
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Plugins will overload and distort before a 32 bit float daw will.
Some will. Some won't.

Alistair
#2265
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Some will. Some won't.

Alistair
Yes some,feel free to name them all undertow?

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#2266
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Yes some,feel free to name them all undertow?
My point was that your blanket statement is incorrect as it stands. It is not true for all plugins. Actually the vast majority of plugins in a 32 bit float DAW run internally at 32 bit float and will overload and distort at the exact same level as the DAW they are running in. Another large section of plugins run at 64 bit float internally and will overload and distort thousands of dBs higher than a 32 bit float DAW. AFAIK there is actually only a tiny section of plugins that will overload and distort before the DAW they run in. One example (unless it has changed in recent versions) is the Waves LinEQ which clips at 0 dB FS.

This doesn't mean it is a good idea not to stick to good gain staging practises. I tend to avoid going over 0 dB FS in ANY system and at ANY stage.

Alistair
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#2267
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post

This doesn't mean it is a good idea not to stick to good gain staging practises. I tend to avoid going over 0 dB FS in ANY system and at ANY stage.

Alistair
Ok I can get wit that.

Also keeping in mind that pushing a plugin the way you would hardware to get that sweet spot of saturation is a no no(for me at least).

Not to mention all so called vintage emulation flavor in form of noisy alaising(- in quality).

Before jumping on the Plugins are god bandwagon,there are somethings to be noted.

I've learned a ton recently(not from you,not from joeq,not from psycho_monkey,not from sage),but from a lot reading.

I still think the people that write off Plugins as totally useless ARE/HAVE,used them wrong...

Use your ears not virtual knob,there not hardware,but they are very powerful.



Alijay

that be flying



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#2268
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2268
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And the Slutty goes to...

If Jules ever decides to come up with an award, say the "Slutty," to the most assanine, circular and pointless thread on GS, this one surely must qualify as a nominee for consideration.
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#2269
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2269
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THIS is why plugins are the way forward.-deadbirds.jpg



Tough to keep a vehicle on the black stuff between the trees with all these suicidal types escaping the aviary.

SM.
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#2270
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post



Tough to keep a vehicle on the black stuff between the trees with all these suicidal types escaping the aviary.

SM.
Don't know if that's aimed at me,but its so cleverly written that I like it anyway!

Even when I was putting rope around my neck,still a big chuckle.

Humor is good around Herr...

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#2271
16th May 2012
Old 16th May 2012
  #2271
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people are still arguing about stuff like analog vs. digital?

just get your recordings\mixes\masters done already, nobody cares how you do it as long as you're good with what you use and are able to keep your clients happy.

experience will make you sound better, not gear. be it digital or analog.

for my part, I am obsessed with knobs. I can't work quick enough with only a mouse. so either I buy hardware when I can or use some external controller for ITB stuff. but I need knobs!

just my 2c.
#2272
3rd July 2012
Old 3rd July 2012
  #2272
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Please do not forget the Acoustics, this is IMHO the most important prior to any recording!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPelaMangi View Post
OK, great thread so far, firstly gotta state my background and current situation to so you all know where I'm coming from (joined gearslutz to participate in this thread, great site BTW)

Background: Jumped on the digital audio "revolution" wave back in 1999, my first soundcard was a Guillimont Maxi Studio Isis, hooked up to a Mackie SR24.4.2 and a 'good' stereo, lol. By 2004 I was an A/V Production Manager at a mid range studio in Australia (mate) running all kinds of DAWS for different client types. Left to build TV / Radio Studios and TV / Radio Transmissions sites in developing countries, currently work in Fibre Optics.

Current Situation: Starting to build equipment list for studio. Studio is intended for personal use.

So now that's out of the way, I'll get down to it...

I drop $25K on a Neuman U87i, 2 channels of Neve pre-amps, Manley Variable MU, and Manley Massive Passive. I feed it into a Crane Song HEDD 192 into a LYNX AES16 with an LYNX 16 i/o. Insert whatever DAW and sum it through and SSL X-DESX into some Focal Twin 6's an back into the HEDD,, hell I even use a little of the tape emulation or pentode knob on the way back in. I use NI Mashine and Komplete 8 for my plug-in suite, when it comes to drums I use sample packs recorded in million dollar studios.

My front end and back end is made of the same stuff as a million dollar studio and some middle of the road but highly effective plug-ins, I use the drum samples to make a beat, I use the komplete 8 for all the synths and reverb, modulation tasks. I use the Neuman, neve & manleys for the vocal chain. It all goes through the SSL into the Focal's and the HEDD. Ergo it sounds like a 'million dollar studio'.

Plug-in's are the way forward, for synths, sampling, reverbs & 'special FX' and even drums. High quality virtual instruments are based on samples recorded on high end equipment, played out of a high end D/A into some Hi-End speakers shouldn't they same exactly the same?

Dynamics, EQ are outboard, for now, Pre-Amps, well you will always need those won't you. All things said, good mic's, pre's , D/A's and good monitors that should be the main priority, the rest well it's upto personal taste and workflow requirements and budgets isn't it.
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#2273
3rd July 2012
Old 3rd July 2012
  #2273
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I skimmed the thread... here's a quick .02

Its easy to tell when the strings are from a sample library. The guitar is midi programmed, and the drums are battery...

Its not so easy to tell, or hear rather, "that the eq is of lesser quality and a vst plug in." especially if the eq vst is top notch.

I think you would be hard pressed, in a blind listening, to come out and say, "oh that bass is sound drab, should have used hardware." just cause you can hear, "wow, dude used a vst eq on that."
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#2274
7th July 2012
Old 7th July 2012
  #2274
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And On and On it goes ..
#2275
7th July 2012
Old 7th July 2012
  #2275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf LeProducer View Post

I think you would be hard pressed, in a blind listening, to come out and say, "oh that bass is sound drab, should have used hardware." just cause you can hear, "wow, dude used a vst eq on that."
If you had some physical knobs, and you were turning those knobs to get a sound, and behind those knobs was EITHER a plug-in or a real tube Pultec, do you think that you, the engineer, could 'tell'?

If you could tell, that would matter. It certainly would make a difference in how your mix comes out, regardless of what specifics a blind 'listener' who wasn't there might guess at -
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#2276
8th July 2012
Old 8th July 2012
  #2276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf LeProducer View Post
Its not so easy to tell, or hear rather, "that the eq is of lesser quality and a vst plug in." especially if the eq vst is top notch.

I use plugins to fine tune sound, mostly by sucking out a little 200 or 1.5k. Works great.

But when I need to reshape a sound or dramatically alter its frequency content, there's no comparing the results I get with plugins vs. a tight piece of hardware.

So in that sense, it's extremely easy for me to tell the difference between even the highest quality dsp eq I have (FabFilter ProQ, love it) and the outboard.

I still maintain, and always have maintained, that the gap between hardware and software eq is far greater than the gap between hardware and software compression. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom around here, and I'm ok with that.


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#2277
15th July 2012
Old 15th July 2012
  #2277
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Just a small addition:

Plugins that are copies of existing analogue boxes... it's missing the point.

Certainly DSP has huge advantages. It doesn't have impedance matching issues. Analogue is really not easy to work with, everything has a knock-on effect.

The Line6 "retro-emulator" school of thought is basically ****%&$*£****. It's rubbish in my books.

How many plugins are there currently in production that are innovating, producing sound processing gear that does something that could not have been done before?

Instead, we're trying to copy the artefacts of a completely different process, rendered in a new process?!

You're running Helios plugins, and Pye compressors? No you're not, you're running algorithms. If you could have any algorithms... are you sure you want those?

Harmonic distortion... sure you might want that. One should find a plugin that gives you harmonic distortion, and controllable levels of each harmonic, eg: http://www.fieldingdsp.com/. Non-linearity of various forms can be applied. The slew rate could be messed about with. But do we get this? No.

The problem is when people start slapping "retro-brand-emulator" on everything without really questioning why, or what it really does to the signal. It's missing the point of function. A microphone preamp actually preamplifies. That's why I'd use a Neve 1073! For the gain, with mics plugged in. I wouldn't start putting signals through it as a processor.

DSP isn't for faking the distortion of analogue devices that engineers spent ages trying to reduce the distortion etc. It's based on the faulty premise that analogue is "doing something" to the sound which you want, and if you could emulate what it's doing, then it will sound the same. Seeking the artefacts is missing the point of quality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsch
#2278
15th July 2012
Old 15th July 2012
  #2278
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I'd been struggling with pedal sims, mostly tube screamers, for a while now and I could never get rid of the "fake" sound no matter what combination of other sims I tried or EQing technique. Eventually I just gave up trying and started using real pedals again into amp and cab sims. The difference was pretty noticeable and I could kick myself for not doing it sooner.

Of course sims aren't going to sound as good as the real thing, but if you're on a budget, you can get some pretty good results with some real pedals, the LeCto amp sim, and some good cab IRs.
#2279
15th July 2012
Old 15th July 2012
  #2279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopdante View Post
Seeking the artefacts is missing the point of quality. Kitsch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Artifacts become part of a palette that can be called upon in the service of a larger context. The medium becomes the content. We are at once tantalized by the rapture of physical transcendence, yet are also soothed by the lull of physical limitations.
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#2280
15th July 2012
Old 15th July 2012
  #2280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopdante View Post
Plugins that are copies of existing analogue boxes... it's missing the point.

I'm curious to know what 'the point' is for you, because you've put forth a long string of conclusions without stating your premise, which makes it difficult to know what exactly is being argued.

The point for me is inanely simple: to make art, and to somehow get that art to embody a longass list of completely arbitrary aesthetic preferences that I've somehow become attached to, using tools that help me satisfy those preferences. I generally come up short, but I'm inching my way closer with each passing year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bishopdante View Post
DSP isn't for faking the distortion of analogue devices that engineers spent ages trying to reduce the distortion etc.

I've seen this point before, the idea that the engineers of yore wanted to reduce all these distortions (with the implied conclusion that a) they were right, and b) we should therefore want the same thing). For several reasons, I don't buy it.

First, while many engineers fought against the lack of transparency that their setups presented, many did not, many embraced these non-linearities, pushed them to the brink, and harnessed the power of soft clipping, tape limiting, transformer and line amp colorations... all of it.

Second, it is often the case with humans that we disparage and rail against the limitations and hassles of something only to find out that later, when it is gone, we actually miss it and were underestimating the contributions it was making to both the process and the product. This seems to be the case with digital recording, we reached a point of such stark accuracy and cleanliness that things became quite sterile, and guys realized they'd thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Hindsight is often 20/20.

Not everyone covets the dirt and distortions of the old kit, but many (most?) do, certainly enough to warrant the creation of tools which capture the spirit of those 'flawed' tools in a format that embraces the advantages of the new medium.

All of which is to say: I take your points, and respectfully disagree.


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