THIS is why plugins are the way forward.
#751
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipperman View Post
Earth to Doris. Earth to Doris. Come in Doris.

I'm measuring about 30 meters between the bottom of Turbos salient point(s) and the top of yer sodden coconut.

The BIGGEST problem is in ADAC's.

It's not going to be addressed with dogmatic number crunching rhetoric.

And it is COMPOUNDED with every AD/DA conversion.

Which is certainly germane to any discussion of plug-in's as the "way forward".

You CANNOT compare a plug-ins performance to a hardware box on the far side of an ADAC, and post yer wav. results on GS. You've already compromised the hardwares signal with dreadful sounding digital bullshit.

Case in point: When you DON'T engage in such silly internot tom-foolery, and you have the ability to simply slam a snare with an 1176 on the insert of a "money" LFAC, and compare it to the performance any of the supposed emulations...

This whole thread goes the way of the dodo bird.

No free lunch yet kids.

This is the reality of one's surroundings, in the fabric of my experience, when you can do all the plug-in manipulation of the digital aficionados at the drop of a hat... AND enjoy the benefits of working on expensive hardware systems for ACTUAL REAL WORLD comparison.

Context is KING.

To mimic the hilariously dismissive and supercilious tone of poster mizzle...

Get over it.

SM.
Oh boy. Well, it's up to you to miss out on the opportunities available. If you don't understand the nature of digital resolution and the what it takes to cross the threshold of human hearing capabilities, that is not my fault, but it is your mistake in the long run. Fact is, you are not going to get rid of the digital stage. Best thing for you to do is aid in transition by helping out.
Or you can release all of your work in the retro-vinyl market bubble, even cassettes if you so desire.

Young kids with laptops are going to eat your practice up, because the SKILL of using these tools is far larger a portion of the equation than the extremely small differences in response between an analog comp and it's "emulation". I think a lot of people are sour on the idea of the playing field getting leveled now that access to superior tools is really opening up, and it really scares those of you who have a significant investment in the analog tools because ownership used to guarantee income. The game has changed and strata are shifting.

Have you heard the Abbey Road RS124?
I owned a top-notch attack/release modded Gates STA-LEVEL and had the pleasure of using it for 4 years on all kinds of material. With the RS124 I do not miss the STA-LEVEL one bit. I've also got a Manley Vari-Mu with the original RCA tube in it. You know what? It collects dust. API? Sold. EAR mastering EQ's? Sold.

I am not nostalgic. I am realistic.
#752
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GENX View Post
The Black Keys-Brothers.
Exactly.
#753
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Indeed, making *any* definitive statement about the future is asinine.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Well fine. Give up. We'll all just walk into tomorrow blindly with no experience to guide us.

Listen, we need your experience to work together in a changing world. I understand the emotional attachments to older methods, but there are always inefficiencies and distortions to weed out of the previous generation's methods.

That being said, we need to transfer the distilled essence of the process of music production. That is paramount, and that is where you come in.
Don't be a stick in the mud.
#754
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #754
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Location: A prison cell with soffit mounts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Oh boy. Well, it's up to you to miss out on the opportunities available. If you don't understand the nature of digital resolution and the what it takes to cross the threshold of human hearing capabilities, that is not my fault, but it is your mistake in the long run. Fact is, you are not going to get rid of the digital stage. Best thing for you to do is aid in transition by helping out.
Or you can release all of your work in the retro-vinyl market bubble, even cassettes if you so desire.

Young kids with laptops are going to eat your practice up, because the SKILL of using these tools is far larger a portion of the equation than the extremely small differences in response between an analog comp and it's "emulation". I think a lot of people are sour on the idea of the playing field getting leveled now that access to superior tools is really opening up, and it really scares those of you who have a significant investment in the analog tools because ownership used to guarantee income. The game has changed and strata are shifting.

Have you heard the Abbey Road RS124?
I owned a top-notch attack/release modded Gates STA-LEVEL and had the pleasure of using it for 4 years on all kinds of material. With the RS124 I do not miss the STA-LEVEL one bit. I've also got a Manley Vari-Mu with the original RCA tube in it. You know what? It collects dust. API? Sold. EAR mastering EQ's? Sold.

I am not nostalgic. I am realistic.
Ahh... A finger pointing "agenda call-out" GS pissing match.

Anyhoo.

I have always encouraged folks on this site, and elsewhere, to use whatever audio equipment they have available to them to make music... and make their own equipment decisions based on the intersection of their practical experiences and the vista of opportunity.

We now have some indication of how you have come to yours.


Thank you.


SM.
#755
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #755
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My Studio

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post

Compared to software, tubes and transistors are not:
1) cost efficient
2) space efficient
3) resource efficient
4) energy efficient

Tubes and tape are cool, and I like the sound of them, but they are not the future.
Not that I have some useful statement, or ethos or argument to add in this thread [other than use whatever you like, and use it well] I would really like to invite you to come and hang with me at "crankies" amp repair shop, where these dudes are seriously convinced, and tell you with a completely straight face that "silicon tech", is reversed engineered Alien science found at the Roswell crash. These dudes SWEAR, Tubes are the only thing that should be used for audio gear. The ONLY thing.....There is a pile of transistor stuff there, while the tube heads get new tubes, some love, and sent on their merry way out the door. My great grandchildren will be swapping tubes in my amps when I am dead and gone. Believe it.
#756
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
My great grandchildren will be swapping tubes in my amps when I am dead and gone. Believe it.
My grandchildren won't get the chance because my kids will sell mine on Craigslist and use the bucks to buy a fast car. j/k

I grew up listening to tube audio gear, then early transistor gear. Some of it was pretty pathetic. (Holy Grail voice: "I got better") The funny thing is, tube gear got better over the years too. David Manley and others brought the magic. I consider myself lucky to be able to hear great music through either.
#757
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Not that I have some useful statement, or ethos or argument to add in this thread [other than use whatever you like, and use it well] I would really like to invite you to come and hang with me at "crankies" amp repair shop, where these dudes are seriously convinced, and tell you with a completely straight face that "silicon tech", is reversed engineered Alien science found at the Roswell crash. These dudes SWEAR, Tubes are the only thing that should be used for audio gear. The ONLY thing.....There is a pile of transistor stuff there, while the tube heads get new tubes, some love, and sent on their merry way out the door. My great grandchildren will be swapping tubes in my amps when I am dead and gone. Believe it.
Sure. And people still cook food on campfires. It's fun, and it brings us back to our roots, but it is not common practice.

In the 60's Les Paul gave a talk in front of audio professionals including Sherman Fairchild and Ampex employees in which he politely requested that they get on the ball and start developing equipment that outperforms tubes and tape.

What did the genius inventor of multi-track recording use as his recording medium later in life in his home studio? Pro-tools.

Believe it.
#758
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #758
Harmless Wacko
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: A prison cell with soffit mounts
Posts: 1,737

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
What did the genius inventor of multi-track recording use as his recording medium later in life in his home studio? Pro-tools.

Believe it.
So when a 90+ year old man suffering from the appreciable physical limitations of attaining such an age, briefly opts to use a medium based on convenience in his home studio, at the end of his life... where he putters around on an infrequent basis... this equates to a rousing endorsement of the sonics of said system?

Right.

Just as a note of interest: The guy who was Les Pauls primary tech for the last decade of his life, has been maintaining equipment at my street address with varying degrees of persistence since the 1980's. I have had the pleasure of hearing MANY Les Paul stories over the years. None of them contained anything which would lead me to lend much credence to your uhmm... theory.

Play again.

SM.

PS. Cue the obligatory "No really, George Massenburg is using an Icon now" GS stories. Say. I once used ADAT's. Even made a coupla "shiny plaque" records on them. And, in my defense... So did a host of other people who had to make a living in this craft in those terrible days.

Does that make me an "ADAT aficionado"?

Jeez... I guess by your standards... It does.

Crash.
#759
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #759
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Posts: 616

mizzle,

I'm always amused by people who have your attitude. You seem to think that your take on things is the only viable and correct one, and if we don't share your narrow view of how the future "will be", then we are mislead. I simply don't understand that sort of arrogance. Use whatever the hell you like and believe whatever the hell you like. I wonder why you seem so theatened by others not agreeing with you....You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Kirt Shearer
#760
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #760
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Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Austin
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I mix on a desk everyday and I have also been mixing ITB for years too...

The way I think of it, mixing in the box feels like programming midi, and mixing on a desk feels like playing an instrument.

Both have advantages...both have drawbacks.
#761
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #761
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Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Athens,Greece

I agree that digital's flaw is the current state of ad/da converters.
I'm one of the lucky ones who worked extensively in the only analog part of the industry (except the reverbs i know..) without storage medium artifacts..Live sound. You should look at my face when digital consoles arrived with all their included gizmos, graphics, compressors. I retired in the right time. The addition only of ad/da converters in the chain made a (worse) difference.
Do yourself a favor. Work on a decent analog PA system and switch to whatever digital console you wish..Oh, my.

Someone might say that his ad da system is top class, the best, etc. Well buy a similar da quality for each one of your clients' fans and i might change my mind.
#762
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #762
Gear maniac
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 299

Quote:
Originally Posted by turk sanchez View Post
I mix on a desk everyday and I have also been mixing ITB for years too...

The way I think of it, mixing in the box feels like programming midi, and mixing on a desk feels like playing an instrument.

Both have advantages...both have drawbacks.
Well put!
#763
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #763
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The best selling plugins are emulations of old analog designs. I guess all these modern race car drivers just love recreating the feel of old horse drawn carriage rides? Chuckle.
#764
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
The best selling plugins are emulations of old analog designs. I guess all these modern race car drivers just love recreating the feel of old horse drawn carriage rides? Chuckle.
Sure. Period pieces are entertaining.
#765
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #765
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Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turk sanchez View Post
I mix on a desk everyday and I have also been mixing ITB for years too...

The way I think of it, mixing in the box feels like programming midi, and mixing on a desk feels like playing an instrument.

Both have advantages...both have drawbacks.
Again, this is why controllers are the future. With enough processing power, the resolution is there to eliminate quantization and latency issues. One of the biggest gripes of working ITB is obviously over the mouse.
#766
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbshearer View Post
mizzle,

I'm always amused by people who have your attitude. You seem to think that your take on things is the only viable and correct one, and if we don't share your narrow view of how the future "will be", then we are mislead. I simply don't understand that sort of arrogance. Use whatever the hell you like and believe whatever the hell you like. I wonder why you seem so theatened by others not agreeing with you....You must be a lot of fun at parties.

Kirt Shearer
Paradise Studios
It's not a threat that others don't agree. It is more so painful that they don't seem to understand the nature of the technology and how certain technologies grow to eclipse previous incarnations. Previous incarnations will be kept if their inherent advantages or characteristics are distinctly strong enough. The area of distinction between these two mediums (analog and digital) grows smaller every day, and will continue to grow smaller at an ever increasing rate until the sonic difference will be imperceptible to the human ear.

I understand if you are skeptical based on the differences as you hear them today, but it will be outright impossible in 40 years.
#767
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #767
3 + infractions, forum membership suspended.
 
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,987

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
It's called getting outperformed. Saying that tubes and tapes will always sound superior as asinine. The room for growth of fidelity in those technologies is miniscule. The room in digital for advances in resolution are well beyond the best noise floor and bandwidth limitations for analog.

The world is not static. Things change. Get over it.
I love that!

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#768
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
The best selling plugins are emulations of old analog designs. I guess all these modern race car drivers just love recreating the feel of old horse drawn carriage rides? Chuckle.
I love that too!


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#769
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #769
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Posts: 260

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
In a well done mix nobody knows the difference between hardware and plug-ins. That's really all that matters.

I like hardware, but I don't like the cost, the size, the heat, the maintenance, the limited amount of instances of use, the lack of portability and the lack of instantly recalled settings.

Since I can get a killer mix with plug-ins I don't see a need for hardware if any of those gripes I listed is ever an issue.
Agree 100% !!
I got rid of ALL my hardware, desk, outboard, etc etc...
It took me a while to work it out (mixing ITB) as I was used to working on analogue for the last 20 years...but now, with all the benefits of software, I don't miss it at all !!
The end result is what matters! Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
#770
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #770
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Location: Bristol, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
that's the MOUSE, silly!

the outer wheel moves the cursor left and right, and the inner wheel moves the cursor up and down...


Actually the photo and the 'Rand Corporation' caption is part of a famous hoax.

The original photo is of a mock-up of the control panel of a nuclear submarine, converted to greyscale. Some elements like the printer and the console-style TV set were photoshopped in.
Thanks for explaining what the wheels do. I did wonder
#771
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
Agree 100% !!
I got rid of ALL my hardware, desk, outboard, etc etc...
It took me a while to work it out (mixing ITB) as I was used to working on analogue for the last 20 years...but now, with all the benefits of software, I don't miss it at all !!
The end result is what matters! Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
Amen!thank you ITB gang,boy I needed you guys on a few other threads....

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#772
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYINGJAY View Post
Amen!thank you ITB gang,boy I needed you guys on a few other threads....
Because those discussions are about winning, not sharing opinions?
#773
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
I friggin' LOVE the songs on that record, but I gotta say in all fairness... the sound quality is heinous!


Gregory Scott - ubk
JAGGED LITTLE PILL!
One of my most favorite records,didn't it sell like 17 milly worldwide!

Hey man the chords were great,the melodies great ,her freakin vocals blew me away.I was 24 at the time,me & 16 million 9 hundred 99 thousand 9 hundred and 99 people wasn't checking for tube or tape mixing or mastering,we just cared about alanis with those sexy lips.

Sorry AE your just not my type.I don't care what car you drive or desk you use.LOL




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#774
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #774
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Location: Bristol, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Two words: Moore's Law

Digital will eat analog, it is inevitable. Not grasping this is your own loss.
I don't think that this is true, at least, not for the time being. Technology such as Endless Analog's CLASP comes to mind, therefore analogue is still alive and kicking. I just think that the lines between analogue and digital are being blurred. Just my 2 cents, shoot me down if I'm wrong
#775
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzle View Post
Period pieces are entertaining.
Period pieces are the future? Oh dear. Chuckle.
#776
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #776
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBear View Post
Ask the people with iPods do they hear any difference..?
Not with a low bit rate mp3 downloaded for free off the internet, no...
#777
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
I agree that digital's flaw is the current state of ad/da converters.
I'm one of the lucky ones who worked extensively in the only analog part of the industry (except the reverbs i know..) without storage medium artifacts..Live sound. You should look at my face when digital consoles arrived with all their included gizmos, graphics, compressors. I retired in the right time. The addition only of ad/da converters in the chain made a (worse) difference.
Comparing the original AD/DA converters with what's available now is kind of irrelevant. If people can't tell the difference between the original source and the the AD/DA conversion (and with the best conversion, the vast majority can't in blind tests), then surely conversion has reached an acceptable standard right?

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
Do yourself a favor. Work on a decent analog PA system and switch to whatever digital console you wish..Oh, my.
I personally find most PAs too loud to listen to without earplugs, and I'd never do live sound because my ears couldn't take it! Again...I'd argue that with proper engineering skills (and it may be harder in the live arena due to the temptation to push the levels higher and higher, headroom etc) AD conversion is not an issue. The digital EQs/compressors may be - I'm not passing judgement there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haryy View Post
Someone might say that his ad da system is top class, the best, etc. Well buy a similar da quality for each one of your clients' fans and i might change my mind.
That's such a flawed argument - because everyone listening to records has an audiophile quality turntable? Consumers always have crap equipment, analogue or digital. It's our job to make it as good as possible for that crap equipment. Plus at least a digital copy won't degrade - how bad do most overplayed vinyl records sound?

Not to mention that some aren't that fussed about the sound of vinyl - personally I find the clicks and pops distracting, much as I like other things about it.
#778
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.

Bingo. I do believe that many confuse the issue of fidelity with that of character. Because tubes and tapes have a certain pleasing character does not make them superior in terms of fidelity.

The more character the equipment imparts, the less fidelity it has to the source signal. I am not saying that this character is undesirable. Like many distortions, they can be useful for all kinds of expressive purposes, but it should be noted that they are obstacles to fidelity and accuracy (which in terms of progress, are the salient points of any documentary media).

The science behind digital is that it's theoretical limitations for fidelity and accuracy far surpass that of analog. That is what makes it the obvious choice as the primary medium of audio capture in the future. It is the passing of the torch.
#779
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #779
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Location: OKC, Oklahoma
Posts: 5

Hardware is great, irreplaceable if you can afford it.

The important thing for me is that I enjoy the process, and if I can get 100 miles down the road via digital versus 110 miles via >> expensive hardware, I'll get 100 miles down the road.

I'm also a photographer, and I don't always have my camera handy. I do have my phone handy, and take loads of pictures with the phone. Do they suck?

Well compared to photos taken with a "real" camera perhaps, but which one did I have access to? We're not all in a situation where we have money, or even real-estate for hardware.

I might not have a car, but a bus ticket will still get me downtown!
#780
30th July 2011
Old 30th July 2011
  #780
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Location: Athens,Greece

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Comparing the original AD/DA converters with what's available now is kind of irrelevant. If people can't tell the difference between the original source and the the AD/DA conversion (and with the best conversion, the vast majority can't in blind tests), then surely conversion has reached an acceptable standard right?

Because lets face it, you may not have had storage medium artefacts, but you had tape artefacts. The fact that your ears found it flattering is neither here nor there - there's still artefacts, and modern AD/DA is more true than tape ever was. I can use a CLASP system, record through tape with a true AD/DA, and capture that sound. Your tape will degrade every time you play it. THAT is progress.

Honestly - if you think the current AD/DA is a problem, I urge you to sort out a proper blind test with a top mastering grade AD/DA, play back your favourite vinyl through it in a double blind test and see if you can tell the difference. Again, the fact that you like the sound of tape doesn't mean that there's a problem with AD/DA conversion. It just means you need to find a way to include that tape sound in what you do. It's 2 different issues.



I personally find most PAs too loud to listen to without earplugs, and I'd never do live sound because my ears couldn't take it! Again...I'd argue that with proper engineering skills (and it may be harder in the live arena due to the temptation to push the levels higher and higher, headroom etc) AD conversion is not an issue. The digital EQs/compressors may be - I'm not passing judgement there.



That's such a flawed argument - because everyone listening to records has an audiophile quality turntable? Consumers always have crap equipment, analogue or digital. It's our job to make it as good as possible for that crap equipment. Plus at least a digital copy won't degrade - how bad do most overplayed vinyl records sound?

Not to mention that some aren't that fussed about the sound of vinyl - personally I find the clicks and pops distracting, much as I like other things about it.
I never said anything about tape. I'm talking about the current state of digital sound vs real sound. I recognize digital is the only option we have today but i criticize its ability to capture what is given to it. So , i believe my last sentence is more valid than you propose.
Real live sound in high volume will let you feel the differences more clear than the studio environment. Feel what the bass is doing to your body and ear when you have a full analog chain and feel what it doesn't as soon as you put a digital console in. It's a "static" sound that doesn't "move". The dynamics are flat and unispiring. I can't further explain the differences without sounding like an audiophilliac, so please first experience what i tell you and then you'll probably understand.
But you can kind of test this in your studio. Let the band play and listen through your analog console only, and then do the same listening through your converters.
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