Apple Logic X rumours

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Sure! For talkback I use a simple mic with a built-in on/off switch. You could eg. set it up on an Input object (no cabling needed), and have the Input object in Arrange if you wish. The Input objects (and Arrange tracks) have Mute-buttons... Or have it on a regular track, with Input (but not Record) enabled. Or only have in the Mixer.

Also have a compressor on the bus used for monitoring and set it's sidechain to the TB Mic. It's easy enough.

[work2do]

Originally Posted by Macaroni

Apparently, you are not a developer or programmer. Operating systems are constantly moving targets and will be forever, so there is no inherent stability whatsoever. It's the nature of the beast. Advancements in hardware and software add to this complexity.

That's a cop-out. Apple is the ground floor all the way up to the penthouse. The dept's cannot talk to each other? Apple is the programmer, the developer, they make the operating system and the computer hardware. So the 4th floor cannot call the 5th floor and work it out? There are rock solid daws out there. Imagine if the guys at Samplitude or the Reaper guy built the o/s and the computer to go with their daw.

[The Beatsmith]

Originally Posted by work2do

That's a cop-out. Apple is the ground floor all the way up to the penthouse. The dept's cannot talk to each other? Apple is the programmer, the developer, they make the operating system and the computer hardware. So the 4th floor cannot call the 5th floor and work it out? There are rock solid daws out there. Imagine if the guys at Samplitude or the Reaper guy built the o/s and the computer to go with their daw.

Agreed.

I'm just too lazy/don't have time to learn Cubase/Pro Tools

[Macaroni]

No it's not a cop out. You just don't get it. It's not as simple or easy as you described. That is such a simplistic perspective, it is ridiculous. That's why you're bewildered by it all and don't get it.

That's a cop-out. Apple is the ground floor all the way up to the penthouse. The dept's cannot talk to each other? Apple is the programmer, the developer, they make the operating system and the computer hardware. So the 4th floor cannot call the 5th floor and work it out?

[work2do]

Originally Posted by The Beatsmith

Agreed.

I'm just too lazy/don't have time to learn Cubase/Pro Tools

I use Pro Tools all day, every day, since it was soundtools way back when. But I do production in Logic. Studio One for production is growing on me. They are just missing a few features I'm used to.

Originally Posted by Macaroni

No it's not a cop out. You just don't get it. It's not as simple or easy as you described. That is such a simplistic perspective, it is ridiculous. That's why you're bewildered by it all and don't get it.

You are blinded by FANaticism. Stop making excuses for them. Apple designs/develops the daw, the operating system, and the hardware. No other company has this yet they have super stable DAWs. The fact is they have come up very small considering they control the entire "world" their DAW plays in and money is no object for them. If Logic X is a complete re-write they need to take as long as they need to get it right and efficient. And the 3rd floor should test it thoroughly when the 5th floor releases a Lion/Tiger/Bear update before passing it on to us.

[Macaroni]

I'm not making excuses for Apple, I'm making fun of you!

[dergit]

Originally Posted by work2do

I'm not sure that's a fair statement. They have been dropping consistent bug fixes/updates.

Is there something in the current version of Logic that stops people from successfully composing, producing, recording, and mixing their projects? Or is it just about gear lust and needing the nice new shiny object with a 100 new features that creates more bugs and issues?

The last update was 9.1.7 in March '12, more than half a year ago.

Since installing Lion, I have frequently experienced the "UI Latency issue"

Since installing Mountain Lion, I can not record audio anymore, period. It's completely destroyed by clicks and pops. And I'm not alone with that either.

Now, I don't have an explanation why I experience these bugs and you don't. But I'm not a complete computer-illiterate either, so I'd like to think it's not my fault after having tried complete clean installs, different audio interfaces and drivers, and extensive searches on forums and websites.

I can only assume it's hardware. But when I spent $3k on a fully loaded macbook pro in late 2009, I didn't plan on buying another one merely 3 years later.

After a few weeks of not making music, I installed 10.6.8 on a second partition and it's all working fine. Granted, having a dedicated OS for working in audio has a few perks of it's own but surely this can't be the solution Apple had in mind?

[valis]

The UI Latency issue is due to a mismatch between the version of ProKit that was out when the last Logic update came out and the version(s) that are current in Lion & ML. ProKit updates are unfortunately pushed inside certain OS updates (Lion) and with a new OS (ML). There is a 'fix' where you can force install (using pacifist etc) the 7.0.0 (or was it 7.0.0.1) version of ProKit after cleaning out the existing version, but you'll have to look through my old posts to find it. I've referenced it at least twice in the not too distant past...

Also Final Cut Pro X & other Apple apps rely on the current versions of ProKit, so stepping it back for Logic may affect other apps I'm unaware of (I use FCX and so kept it and just disable the analyzer on EQ instances and avoid having more than 1 animated plugin window up etc).

The pops & clicks issue won't be related 100% imo, and is possibly (probably) a driver problem. You didn't give any system specs so it's difficult to know from the description given...

In any case it's pretty OT from the Logic X nature of this thread, so to get back on track one might suggest it's about time for a Logic update if not X, given the ProKit issue(s) and certain issues that affect the user library when FCX & Logic are installed via the App Store.

[timtoonz]

Originally Posted by phas3d

Also have a compressor on the bus used for monitoring and set it's sidechain to the TB Mic. It's easy enough.

Easy enough - but then your talkback mic is activated by any audio activity. So every time you play back the tracks in the control room, your talkback mic automagically opens... Not really ideal -- unless I'm missing sum thin in your methodology.

I dunno. Maybe I just too old school, but I still haven't found anything that works as well as my old 1970's MCI mixer, with a talkback button. Hold down the button, talk, let go. Done! Crazy me, I assumed that by 2012, the software wizards at Apple/Emagic would have developed something superior. And it really should be a built in feature, so it's part of every project you work on -- not something you have to remember to 'build.'

Whatever. I'll live with the current setup (I have a mic with an on/off switch routed to an aux channel input)... If they fix Logic's multiTimbral instrument handling, I think I'd consider the rest 'gravy'.

[timtoonz]

Originally Posted by valis

The UI Latency issue is due to a mismatch between the version of ProKit that was out when the last Logic update came out and the version(s) that are current in Lion & ML. ProKit updates are unfortunately pushed inside certain OS updates (Lion) and with a new OS (ML). There is a 'fix' where you can force install (using pacifist etc) the 7.0.0 (or was it 7.0.0.1) version of ProKit after cleaning out the existing version, but you'll have to look through my old posts to find it. I've referenced it at least twice in the not too distant past...

Also Final Cut Pro X & other Apple apps rely on the current versions of ProKit, so stepping it back for Logic may affect other apps I'm unaware of (I use FCX and so kept it and just disable the analyzer on EQ instances and avoid having more than 1 animated plugin window up etc).

The pops & clicks issue won't be related 100% imo, and is possibly (probably) a driver problem. You didn't give any system specs so it's difficult to know from the description given...

In any case it's pretty OT from the Logic X nature of this thread, so to get back on track one might suggest it's about time for a Logic update if not X, given the ProKit issue(s) and certain issues that affect the user library when FCX & Logic are installed via the App Store.

Ooh - I need to know more about this 'ProKit' workaround!!!

After recently migrating from a 2006 (SnowLeopard) macPro to a 2012 (Lion) machine, I couldn't get Logic to run without all sorts of permission errors. An Apple Support doc I found recommended trashing the ProKit framework and reinstalling... So I trashed it and -- D'OH! The system won't LET you reinstall a new one, coz it still keeps saying "You have a newer version already installed". End result: Logic (and iPhoto and Final Cut) won't run AT ALL.

So I forced a copy of my old SnowLeopard proKit down the Lion's throat, and now Logic will run. Kind of. It's buggy. Unpredictable, and won't run in 32 bit mode (which means I can't authorize 32 bit plugins, and also that I can't output audio to quick times, which for a composer is a major PITA).

I NEED to get a new clean ProKit framework installed on my system. If you can point me to any info on how to do it, I'd be very grateful. AppleCare support certainly didn't know the answer. They merely said "ooh... you shouldn't touch that file." (Disregarding the fact that the 'trash the ProKit' advice is in Apple's own support docs...)

I will do a search for more info here. I've scoured the net already.... but any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. My only other alternative is to wipe a new hard drive and start reinstalling everything from scratch. And that's a 3 day odyssey I don't have time for now!

[phas3d]

Originally Posted by timtoonz

Easy enough - but then your talkback mic is activated by any audio activity. So every time you play back the tracks in the control room, your talkback mic automagically opens... Not really ideal -- unless I'm missing sum thin in your methodology.

The other thing was pointed out before my post. A mic with an on/off switch.

[timtoonz]

Searched - found the ProKit thread. And a link to a good discussion of the problems on LogicPro Help.

Don't know why these didn't turn up in my previous searches, but thanks Valis for guiding me to it! Now I'm excited to try these fixes, but I don't dare touch my marginally stable machine while I'm in the middle of a tight deadline. The weekend re-install awaits....

:-)

[oceantracks]

I don't understand professionals who depend on recording for a living rushing into OS updates....you can usually expect pure hell if you do this. Better to wait and do the cute updates on your iPhone than your bread and butter.

JMHO

TH

[emgbiotch]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I don't understand professionals who depend on recording for a living rushing into OS updates....you can usually expect pure hell if you do this. Better to wait and do the cute updates on your iPhone than your bread and butter.

JMHO

TH

I Agree 100%.

Running latest Logic in 10.6.8, 64bit with ONLY 64bit plugins. No probs. No complaints.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by oceantracks

I don't understand professionals who depend on recording for a living rushing into OS updates....you can usually expect pure hell if you do this. Better to wait and do the cute updates on your iPhone than your bread and butter.

True, and this goes for people who buy a new Mac requiring a new OS as well.

[sbackdoor]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

True, and this goes for people who buy a new Mac requiring a new OS as well.

I don't think they leave us any choice when we buy a new one?
Or would my Snow Leopard CD still work on the newest mac?

[nativeaudio]

I don't think they leave us any choice when we buy a new one?

What I'm saying is that a pro user relying on a combination of gadgets/software etc to work together, should stay away from buying a Mac which requires a new OS if the new OS Lion just has been released. We're talking about millions of lines of code 'talking to each other' here (Pro Kit, OS X, Logic, 3rd part drivers not related to music, plugins, background operations etc)...

Back in my days as a user of Pro Tools hardware, we never updated anything until weeks, sometimes months after a new version of an OS was released. And, like it or not, "needing a new computer" isn't a valid excuse, because if it hasn't been tested and tried by enough people, for long enough time, in real life situations, one cannot be sure that everything is working as expected.

I'd say that one needs to reserve at least a month or two for issues to be reported by users. This isn't something Apple or Logic specific: There are so many combinations of drivers, operating systems, RAM manufacturers, 3rd part drivers, plugins, app versions and so on that it's practically impossible to catch every potential problem in an internal testing process.

[xgman]

Originally Posted by emgbiotch

I Agree 100%.

Running latest Logic in 10.6.8, 64bit with ONLY 64bit plugins. No probs. No complaints.

Yes, only 64 bit plugs helps matters immensely. Still room for improvement though.

[gussyg2007]

Logic is lagging behind in the OS department ...10.6.8 is where it is stuck no real development(save a few bug fixes),we're on 10.8.2 !!No multi core optimization... loads of bugs/issues with 10.7/10.8
I can see myself on SL for some time to come, and have I no issue with this as my system is very stable
If/when LP10(X) drops.. i will buy a new machine (a shiny new MBP ) to run it on and slowly integrate it into the studio
ATM moment i can reach back years and still pull up old projects with 32 bit plugs in no probs ...you just know this is not going to be the case with lp10(X)
10.6.8 is here to stay for a good while yet ...i need to be operational 24/7

[timtoonz]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

What I'm saying is that a pro user relying on a combination of gadgets/software etc to work together, should stay away from buying a Mac which requires a new OS if the new OS Lion just has been released. We're talking about millions of lines of code 'talking to each other' here (Pro Kit, OS X, Logic, 3rd part drivers not related to music, plugins, background operations etc)...

Back in my days as a user of Pro Tools hardware, we never updated anything until weeks, sometimes months after a new version of an OS was released. And, like it or not, "needing a new computer" isn't a valid excuse, because if it hasn't been tested and tried by enough people, for long enough time, in real life situations, one cannot be sure that everything is working as expected.

I'd say that one needs to reserve at least a month or two for issues to be reported by users. This isn't something Apple or Logic specific: There are so many combinations of drivers, operating systems, RAM manufacturers, 3rd part drivers, plugins, app versions and so on that it's practically impossible to catch every potential problem in an internal testing process.

Hey, I agree. I never update in the middle of a project.

But my first generation MacPro simply couldn't cut the mustard any more and I had a huge job just starting up. The only sensible course was to bite the bullet and buy a new machine, even though I wanted to wait until a legitimate "New Mac Pro" desktop arrives.

Problem is, current MacPros come loaded with Lion and will not allow you to run Snow Leopard. That was 'gotcha' number one. Next problem was that even though I've successfully used Apple's migration assistant to upgrade machines in the past, this time it was a total nightmare. And even Apple support seemed to think it was foolish to expect the migration assistant to have worked -- which surprised me.

They recommend manually installing ALL your applications and plugins. That's a week out of my life I simply don't have.

So I had no choice but to find alternate ways to get the system to work the way it's supposed to. In my case, that solution was to copy the 'ProKit.framework' from my old SnowLeopard machine to my new Lion desktop... Hilarity ensues. But at least I was able to get to work.

And I've got clones and backups of EVERYTHING. But the bottom line in my case was that I was forced by circumstances to upgrade machines, and then when that Brain-Transplant didn't go well, I was too deep into my current job to rip it all apart and start over. Soon as I finish (in another couple weeks), that's what I'm gonna do.

When the frustration gets too intense, I go bash away at my drum kit. It's not always in tune, but at least it always WORKS. And I haven't had to upgrade, reinstall, or force-quit my drum set once. God I love real instruments!

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by timtoonz

Hey, I agree. I never update in the middle of a project.

But my first generation MacPro simply couldn't cut the mustard any more and I had a huge job just starting up. The only sensible course was to bite the bullet and buy a new machine, even though I wanted to wait until a legitimate "New Mac Pro" desktop arrives.

Still - if you are dependent on your setup for pro work with clients etc, it would have been better to get a used MacPro which you probably could sell for almost the same price as you bought it for - while waiting or a OS/Logic combo which already was proven to work well.

God I love real instruments!

[phas3d]

Been running it with 10.7.4 and it works perfectly apart from what it needs to be improved upon of course...

[timtoonz]

Originally Posted by nativeaudio

Still - if you are dependent on your setup for pro work with clients etc, it would have been better to get a used MacPro which you probably could sell for almost the same price as you bought it for - while waiting or a OS/Logic combo which already was proven to work well.

Yeah, maybe. Hindsight and all that... But given that the 2012 MacPros are pretty much identical to 2010 MacPros, buying new (with AppleCare and retail support) seemed like the 'safer' bet. Especially given that the retailer was running a special that they'll buy back the machine within 2 years for half of the purchase price. That put the cost very close to a used machine, with what seemed at the time like fewer 'unknowns'.

Either way, it was a risk. And I didn't like having to take it... but you'd THINK that a new Apple machine would run Logic better than an old one. You'd think. Or I'd think. But I don't do much thinking any more. Mostly just stick to music and cursing computers and surfing Gearslutz...

BTW, anybody want to buy a super solid snow-leopard 2006 MacPro???

[nativeaudio]

Well, I'm not blaming anyone for updating to ML/ML-dependent Mac too early - I updated to ML once if was out myself (after a week or two). With my former Digidesign gear, updating to a new OS or New OS-dependent Mac was an issue all the time, but back then we just waited a few months. After I updated to ML now, I got the lag problem, adjusted a few things, and then the problem was close to 100% gone, so I didn't have to install Snow Leopard on a different drive. Next time, when OSX Fritz is out, I guess I'll have to follow my own advice about OS updates. :-)

[dergit]

Originally Posted by valis

The pops & clicks issue won't be related 100% imo, and is possibly (probably) a driver problem. You didn't give any system specs so it's difficult to know from the description given...

In any case it's pretty OT from the Logic X nature of this thread, so to get back on track one might suggest it's about time for a Logic update if not X, given the ProKit issue(s) and certain issues that affect the user library when FCX & Logic are installed via the App Store.

I didn't give specs because I didn't want to derail the thread too much but since we've gone there now anyways...

15-inch, Mid 2009 MacBook Pro, 2.66 C2D, 8 GB RAM, NVIDIA 9600M GT, 128GB SSD - all stock, no tinkering whatsoever. The bluetooth and optical drive have died but other than that it's in original condition...

The problem occurred with my M-Audio FW1814 and I blamed their lame driver support and splashed out on a Metric Halo 2882 2d +DSP which didn't fix it. After several clean installs I now run 10.6.8 and Logic 9.1.7 on a 2nd partition and things work fine. I still wish it would "just work".

And to bring this thread back on track:

What I really want for Logic X is a properly working I/O plugin with decent latency compensation without having to sacrifice freeze and bounce in place (just do it realtime, I'll wait). I know how to work around this with bus recording but it could be much easier.

[Prick Up UR Ears]

Originally Posted by dergit

15-inch, Mid 2009 MacBook Pro, 2.66 C2D, 8 GB RAM, NVIDIA 9600M GT, 128GB SSD - all stock, no tinkering whatsoever. The bluetooth and optical drive have died but other than that it's in original condition...

it may well be that a RAM-Bank died as well, which can only be checked by running the RAM-Test... just an idea

[dergit]

Thanks, but I don't see why it would have exactly during the installation of 10.8 and come back to life every single time I boot 10.6.8?

[Prick Up UR Ears]

Originally Posted by dergit

Thanks, but I don't see why it would have exactly during the installation of 10.8 and come back to life every single time I boot 10.6.8?

no real contradiction...

[Leevi]

Interesting to see when the next update for Logic 9 will be out. Soon its been 6 months since the last update. Have to say that I was expecting update after the release of Mountain Lion.

[Rufuss Sewell]

I would've thought there would be an update for the Retina Macbook Pro.