Login / Register
 
Who is going to make the first Thunderbolt audio interface?
New Reply
Subscribe
#31
12th April 2011
Old 12th April 2011
  #31
Gear maniac
 
Ru_C's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Bedfordshire, U.K
Posts: 233

Ru_C is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by cane creek View Post
Id take that with a pinch of salt, companies like Apogee won't announce new gear unless its imminent or they won't sell the old stock.
So basically if you knew there was a new Ensemble due out in 3 months time you'd hold off buying for 3 months.
Theres a Law for this can anybody remember the name ? its named after an American company who announced a new product too early therefore went bust because they couldn't sell any old stock to fund the new product.
Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
#32
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #32
Lives for gear
 
jamwerks's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,143

jamwerks is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
I can certainly see TB technology being the end of the big box desktop. It is certainly negates the main advantage of the Mac Pro over the iMac...the 3 PCIe expansion slots.
Good point! We’ll see what the next Mac Pro’s look like. Avid would love the PciE slots to disappeare. Then they can force TDM users to buy their next-generation external boxes alla Eleven.
#33
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 
stag's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Over myself
Posts: 931

stag is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by crypticglobe View Post
I am really excited about Thunderbolt (ie lightpeak) because of it's potential bandwidth. I hope Microsoft won't treat it like a red-headed step child like they did with firewire just because they didn't invent it.

At any rate... I expect that indeed it will be a long time before we see any pro audio interfaces for it. I expect that a lot of devices will start showing up with thunderbolt interfaces though that could complicate matters: Video Monitors, Hard Drives, etc.. etc... With firewire, the bandwidth is theoretically there to handle all of that and audio, though it never worked. There is a LOT more bw with Thunderbolt, but interrupts and multiple devices may still make it impractical for audio devices as with firewire before it. Only time well tell.

My guess as to who will be first though, is RME.
Who invented it, btw?
I know usb was Intel, fw was texas Instruments but...
#34
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,488

Timur Born is offline
We don't need bandwidth, but low latencies and real-time capabilities. Midi doesn't require any bandwidth, but still suffers from latencies and jitter. A single misbehaving Midi stream can still break your whole audio experience in some DAW applications.

"Thunderbolt" is nice to have, but without "Lightning" it's just a useless bang of noise.
#35
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Muser's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,468

Muser is offline
I think intel are going to make an optical breakout converter for thunderbolt.
so maybe most devices will use optical. thunderbolt might be apples way of retaining some proprietary cable connection type.
__________________
.
awaiting new idea
#36
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: New England
Posts: 1,961

6strings is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
Apple has a an exclusive on TB until I think Feb. '12, so they’ll be wanting to sell a max before that time.
You're one of the many people who mis-read a mac rumors site article. Apple doesn't have an exclusive... they (as usual) are just way ahead of everyone else. (says Intel) So yeah, there's not much of a chance PCs will have TB before 2012, but it's not a contract thing.... they just need time to "tool up."

But it doesn't matter much for most pro users, because macs will be seeing TB products long before PC makers/Microsoft figure out what's going on... and in the meantime, PC consumers will be perfectly content with their USB 2 interfaces anyway..
#37
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #37
Gear nut
 
pocketcalc's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Brasil
Posts: 135

Send a message via MSN to pocketcalc
pocketcalc is offline
#38
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,140

work2do is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketcalc View Post
A thunderbolt to firewire adapter:

Sonnet - New Product Announcement at NAB 2011

End of page.
Everything they have on that page is thunderbolt. ssd hard drives, PCIe expander, Thunderbolt adapters. This is just the beginning.
#39
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #39
Gear nut
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 131

Mad4Brad is offline
wouldn't be surprised if it took at least 2 years.
#40
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Avening's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 987

Avening is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketcalc View Post
A thunderbolt to firewire adapter:

Sonnet - New Product Announcement at NAB 2011

End of page.
Only unfortunate thing about it is they stopped the Thunderbolt port dead in it's tracks! Where's the Thunderbolt "thru" connection? How am I supposed to attach a FW800 device, and my Apple display?
__________________

#41
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #41
Gear maniac
 
cube66's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 179

cube66 is offline
#42
13th April 2011
Old 13th April 2011
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: NYC/LA
Posts: 1,636

PopularDemand is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by cube66 View Post
I think Motu will be first! and second Apogee?

take a look at this news! Gearjunkies.com - Comprehensive resource for music production and DJ equipment
motu has always been ahead of the curve with their interfaces as far as new features & functions. If they would ever take the time to put in some decent converters they would really have something.

seeing that motu just announced and avid and apogee stuff was hooked up thru thunderbolt last year at the thunderbolt presentations i still say avid and apogee.
#43
14th April 2011
Old 14th April 2011
  #43
Lives for gear
 
api2500's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 3,058
My Recordings/Credits

api2500 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur View Post
"Thunderbolt" is nice to have, but without "Lightning" it's just a useless bang of noise.
I like what you did there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser View Post
I think intel are going to make an optical breakout converter for thunderbolt.
so maybe most devices will use optical. thunderbolt might be apples way of retaining some proprietary cable connection type.
Thunderbolt on Copper is so that it can still retain power via TB, not for a proprietary cable. Optical breakout will still be limited to 10Gbps which is pointless. Optical will have to be an optical port but just using the same protocol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Porto View Post
So the question is...is this groundbreaking, or a marketing move? According to this statement, there is nothing new, other than combining multiple existing data streams on a single wire (think HDMI). The question is, can the "display port" data stream be used for audio, or even data storage? I'm thinking not. It seems to me, video aside, this might just turn out to be a glorified PCEexpress port.

Please, if anyone with technical knowledge of can shed some light, it would be greatly appreciated.
10Gbps is definitely not a marketing move. TB is just a raw PCI type data and therefore can send any type of data, video, audio or whatever. TB I believe is PCI but for a laptop format. Any peripheral has the same direct access to Memory, CPU and the Bus just like PCI can.

HDMI can also support Ethernet and ordinary data bits.
__________________



Pac
#45
14th April 2011
Old 14th April 2011
  #45
Pac
Gear interested
 
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3

Pac is offline
#46
14th April 2011
Old 14th April 2011
  #46
Gear nut
 
pocketcalc's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Brasil
Posts: 135

Send a message via MSN to pocketcalc
pocketcalc is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avening View Post
Only unfortunate thing about it is they stopped the Thunderbolt port dead in it's tracks! Where's the Thunderbolt "thru" connection? How am I supposed to attach a FW800 device, and my Apple display?
yep, I thought the same thing.
#47
14th April 2011
Old 14th April 2011
  #47
Lives for gear
 
latestflavor's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: bk
Posts: 826

latestflavor is offline
It's backwards compatible to FW and USB using a "simple adapter".

The new peripherals will presumably have the "through" ports for thunderbolt. But you will still need the adapter, at the end of your TB chain.
#48
15th April 2011
Old 15th April 2011
  #48
Lives for gear
 
crypticglobe's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,569

crypticglobe is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by stag View Post
Who invented it, btw?
I know usb was Intel, fw was texas Instruments but...
According to everything I have read it was suggested to Intel by Apple, and Intel then developed it.
__________________
Steve Lamm
www.cgrmusic.com
#49
15th April 2011
Old 15th April 2011
  #49
Gear nut
 
Joined: Apr 2011
Location: on the Rhine, between CH/F/D
Posts: 88

a.e.neumann is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by cane creek View Post
Theres a Law for this can anybody remember the name ? its named after an American company who announced a new product too early therefore went bust because they couldn't sell any old stock to fund the new product.
It's called "Osborne's Law", and ironically it does not quite apply to the Osborne company, because they were underfinanced to begin with. Read the inside story: Osborne!
Quoting the great Thom Hogan himself:
"You don’t need big burn rates to create big successes. You need ideas, brains, perseverance, and cash flow. Osborne had the first three, but not the fourth. Many of today’s startups are neglecting the fourth because they have a big bank account from funding. That’s a mistake. Cash flow will always get you."
#50
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #50
Gear interested
 
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5

Marshall Arts is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoVi View Post
I spoke to someone from Apogee on Frankfurter messe. Symphony will be moved first to thunderbolt in late 2011. Their other products would be updated to thunderbolt in 2012. So some patience will be required

Dont suppose you heard any ensemble update rumors?
#51
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #51
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,488

Timur Born is offline
The question is not "Who is gonna make it?", but "What will it bring?"!
#52
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #52
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,042

Bassmankr is offline
I see this tech really only being of benefit to the laptop guys as it will be a better interface over Firewire and USB. The desktop or heavy I/O count guys will be better served with PCI/PCIe cards. As for latency, it has to add some over a straight PCIe card because it is taking the extra steps of encoding and decoding light at both ends of the interface.
#53
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #53
Gear maniac
 
roman manlord's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2010
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 216

roman manlord is offline
I have a feeling the first one that's made will not be the one you want.
#54
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #54
Lives for gear
 
jamwerks's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,143

jamwerks is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
The desktop or heavy I/O count guys will be better served with PCI/PCIe cards. As for latency, it has to add some over a straight PCIe card because it is taking the extra steps of encoding and decoding light at both ends of the interface.


This new connection technology will benefit all users. No need for PciE cards so that saves you $500-$1000. It’s basically an advanced PciE technology so the latency numbers should be in that range or lower. PciE and Usb/FW interfaces will soon disappear. Great time to be interface shopping as by November there should be tons of options!
#55
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #55
Lives for gear
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,161

Send a message via Skype™ to UnderTow
UnderTow is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post


This new connection technology will benefit all users. No need for PciE cards so that saves you $500-$1000.
You still need all the controlling electronics. See below.

Quote:
It’s basically an advanced PciE technology so the latency numbers should be in that range or lower.
Actually it just extends the existing PCIe bus out of the computer so it will always be slower than a PCIe card inside the computer. It is even one of Intel's selling points for Thunderbolt: Manufacturers will be able to use their current PCIe drivers with minimal change.

There is need of extra controller chips for protocol switching at each end of the cable to switch between DisplayPort and PCIe data. These are extra steps compared to PCIe inside the box so that can't help latency and these extra controllers might even make the technology more expensive. (Although I think pricing will be determined more by economies of scale than anything else so probably more expensive in the beginning and less expensive when and if the tech takes off).

In other words: It is PCIe+DisplayPort on a small plug. It will be interesting for laptop users... maybe... Not so interesting for permanent studio setups with desktop/server computers.

But you know the important thing to remember is that good old legacy PCI already had more than enough bandwidth for 99.9% of all audio applications. We don't need anything new for studio setups and with the current crop of USB cards we don't really need anything new for laptops either.

Alistair
__________________
Alistair Johnston - TV & Film Post, Mastering, Sound Design
--
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool" -- Richard P. Feynman

"There's a sucker born every minute" -- P.T. Barnum
#56
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #56
Lives for gear
 
api2500's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2010
Location: London
Posts: 3,058
My Recordings/Credits

api2500 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You still need all the controlling electronics. See below.



Actually it just extends the existing PCIe bus out of the computer so it will always be slower than a PCIe card inside the computer. It is even one of Intel's selling points for Thunderbolt: Manufacturers will be able to use their current PCIe drivers with minimal change.

There is need of extra controller chips for protocol switching at each end of the cable to switch between DisplayPort and PCIe data. These are extra steps compared to PCIe inside the box so that can't help latency and these extra controllers might even make the technology more expensive. (Although I think pricing will be determined more by economies of scale than anything else so probably more expensive in the beginning and less expensive when and if the tech takes off).

In other words: It is PCIe+DisplayPort on a small plug. It will be interesting for laptop users... maybe... Not so interesting for permanent studio setups with desktop/server computers.

But you know the important thing to remember is that good old legacy PCI already had more than enough bandwidth for 99.9% of all audio applications. We don't need anything new for studio setups and with the current crop of USB cards we don't really need anything new for laptops either.

Alistair
Are you saying that TB is useless?

No, it's not revolutionary in computing terms, nothing ever is these days. But for laptop computing. For now, it's miles ahead of anything already, with space to expand in the future.

That's what's exciting people, not the idea that Laptop owners are somehow better than desktop owners.

Besides, all this extra horsepower and technology means that even poorer and poorer performances can be fixed.
#57
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #57
Lives for gear
 
jamwerks's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,143

jamwerks is offline
If TB didn’t bring anything new and better, you wouldn’t hear all the excitement coming from the likes of Avid, Apogee, UAD, MOTU, etc.

True it’s PciE technology but with a much larger bandwidth.
#58
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #58
Lives for gear
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,161

Send a message via Skype™ to UnderTow
UnderTow is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks View Post
If TB didn’t bring anything new and better, you wouldn’t hear all the excitement coming from the likes of Avid, Apogee, UAD, MOTU, etc.
I'd be pretty excited about being able to sell new products too if I was a hardware manufacturer.

The extra external bandwidth makes sense for the video and data guys. Less so for the audio guys.

Quote:
True it’s PciE technology but with a much larger bandwidth.
Thunderbolt does not change the PCIe specs at all. It just extends the bus outside of the computer.

See this picture. The Thunderbolt controller is attached to the current PCIe bus (ignoring DisplayPort for now):



As for bandwidth, PCIe 2.0 gives us 4 Gbit/s per lane. A 16x PCIe card gives us 64Gbit/s compared to Thunderbolt's 20Gbit/s.

But let's put these numbers into perspective: A single 96Khz/24 bit audio stream is about 2.2 Mbit/s. 1024 of those is 2.2 Gbit/s. Of course there is overhead but still...

Alistair
#59
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #59
Lives for gear
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,161

Send a message via Skype™ to UnderTow
UnderTow is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by api2500 View Post
Are you saying that TB is useless?
For who? For what? For audio? For video? For external storage?

If we stick to audio then I would say that for permanent studio setups using desktop/server computers, yes, Thunderbolt is useless. For laptop users? Mostly yes.

Quote:
But for laptop computing. For now, it's miles ahead of anything already, with space to expand in the future.
There are already products offering 64/64 audio I/O for laptops. I am sure there are people that want or need more I/O than that for their laptops but wouldn't you agree that it is a rather niche market and that most laptop users really don't need more than 64/64 I/O?

Quote:
That's what's exciting people, not the idea that Laptop owners are somehow better than desktop owners.
You lost me there. Who said anything about anyone being better than anyone else?

Quote:
Besides, all this extra horsepower and technology means that even poorer and poorer performances can be fixed.
It isn't extra horsepower. It is just extending an existing bus outside of the computer.

Alistair
#60
25th April 2011
Old 25th April 2011
  #60
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: NYC/LA
Posts: 1,636

PopularDemand is offline
Very easy to rain on the parade of a new technology that has not even been implemented. Currently for desktop users it doesn't SEEM to offer any benefits but no one knows because there has yet to be a desktop computer with a TB input yet or any TB products on the market.

The one benefit I can see for desktop owners with TB would be no longer having to use a PCIe expansion chassis. But that's now. One year from now...who knows where it's going to be at.

I know cats who are still on Mix+ systems because they feel that technology ceiling was good enough for, not only them, but for the whole world.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
matta / So much gear, so little time!
45
TEMAS / So much gear, so little time!
22
Jules / So much gear, so little time!
35
Ziggy!! / So much gear, so little time!
10

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.