Who is going to make the first Thunderbolt audio interface?

[Ru_C]

Originally Posted by cane creek

Id take that with a pinch of salt, companies like Apogee won't announce new gear unless its imminent or they won't sell the old stock.
So basically if you knew there was a new Ensemble due out in 3 months time you'd hold off buying for 3 months.
Theres a Law for this can anybody remember the name ? its named after an American company who announced a new product too early therefore went bust because they couldn't sell any old stock to fund the new product.

Osborne effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

I can certainly see TB technology being the end of the big box desktop. It is certainly negates the main advantage of the Mac Pro over the iMac...the 3 PCIe expansion slots.

Good point! We’ll see what the next Mac Pro’s look like. Avid would love the PciE slots to disappeare. Then they can force TDM users to buy their next-generation external boxes alla Eleven.

[stag]

Originally Posted by crypticglobe

I am really excited about Thunderbolt (ie lightpeak) because of it's potential bandwidth. I hope Microsoft won't treat it like a red-headed step child like they did with firewire just because they didn't invent it.

At any rate... I expect that indeed it will be a long time before we see any pro audio interfaces for it. I expect that a lot of devices will start showing up with thunderbolt interfaces though that could complicate matters: Video Monitors, Hard Drives, etc.. etc... With firewire, the bandwidth is theoretically there to handle all of that and audio, though it never worked. There is a LOT more bw with Thunderbolt, but interrupts and multiple devices may still make it impractical for audio devices as with firewire before it. Only time well tell.

My guess as to who will be first though, is RME.

Who invented it, btw?
I know usb was Intel, fw was texas Instruments but...

[Timur Born]

We don't need bandwidth, but low latencies and real-time capabilities. Midi doesn't require any bandwidth, but still suffers from latencies and jitter. A single misbehaving Midi stream can still break your whole audio experience in some DAW applications.

"Thunderbolt" is nice to have, but without "Lightning" it's just a useless bang of noise.

[Muser]

I think intel are going to make an optical breakout converter for thunderbolt.
so maybe most devices will use optical. thunderbolt might be apples way of retaining some proprietary cable connection type.

[6strings]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

Apple has a an exclusive on TB until I think Feb. '12, so they’ll be wanting to sell a max before that time.

You're one of the many people who mis-read a mac rumors site article. Apple doesn't have an exclusive... they (as usual) are just way ahead of everyone else. (says Intel) So yeah, there's not much of a chance PCs will have TB before 2012, but it's not a contract thing.... they just need time to "tool up."

But it doesn't matter much for most pro users, because macs will be seeing TB products long before PC makers/Microsoft figure out what's going on... and in the meantime, PC consumers will be perfectly content with their USB 2 interfaces anyway..

[pocketcalc]

A thunderbolt to firewire adapter:

Sonnet - New Product Announcement at NAB 2011

End of page.

[work2do]

Originally Posted by pocketcalc

A thunderbolt to firewire adapter:

Sonnet - New Product Announcement at NAB 2011

End of page.

Everything they have on that page is thunderbolt. ssd hard drives, PCIe expander, Thunderbolt adapters. This is just the beginning.

[Mad4Brad]

wouldn't be surprised if it took at least 2 years.

[Avening]

Originally Posted by pocketcalc

A thunderbolt to firewire adapter:

Sonnet - New Product Announcement at NAB 2011

End of page.

Only unfortunate thing about it is they stopped the Thunderbolt port dead in it's tracks! Where's the Thunderbolt "thru" connection? How am I supposed to attach a FW800 device, and my Apple display?

[cube66]

I think Motu will be first! and second Apogee?

take a look at this news! Gearjunkies.com - Comprehensive resource for music production and DJ equipment

[PopularDemand]

Originally Posted by cube66

I think Motu will be first! and second Apogee?

take a look at this news! Gearjunkies.com - Comprehensive resource for music production and DJ equipment

motu has always been ahead of the curve with their interfaces as far as new features & functions. If they would ever take the time to put in some decent converters they would really have something.

seeing that motu just announced and avid and apogee stuff was hooked up thru thunderbolt last year at the thunderbolt presentations i still say avid and apogee.

[api2500]

Originally Posted by Timur

"Thunderbolt" is nice to have, but without "Lightning" it's just a useless bang of noise.

I like what you did there.

Originally Posted by Muser

I think intel are going to make an optical breakout converter for thunderbolt.
so maybe most devices will use optical. thunderbolt might be apples way of retaining some proprietary cable connection type.

Thunderbolt on Copper is so that it can still retain power via TB, not for a proprietary cable. Optical breakout will still be limited to 10Gbps which is pointless. Optical will have to be an optical port but just using the same protocol.

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

So the question is...is this groundbreaking, or a marketing move? According to this statement, there is nothing new, other than combining multiple existing data streams on a single wire (think HDMI). The question is, can the "display port" data stream be used for audio, or even data storage? I'm thinking not. It seems to me, video aside, this might just turn out to be a glorified PCEexpress port.

Please, if anyone with technical knowledge of can shed some light, it would be greatly appreciated.

10Gbps is definitely not a marketing move. TB is just a raw PCI type data and therefore can send any type of data, video, audio or whatever. TB I believe is PCI but for a laptop format. Any peripheral has the same direct access to Memory, CPU and the Bus just like PCI can.

HDMI can also support Ethernet and ordinary data bits.

[Pac]

Sonic State - News Apogee To Develop Thunderbolt Audio Interfaces, Development announced based on Intel's Thunderbolt technology for connection to Thunderbolt-equipped Macs

[Pac]

[top]MOTU partners with Apple and Intel to develop for Thunderbolt:

Gearjunkies.com - Comprehensive resource for music production and DJ equipment

[pocketcalc]

Originally Posted by Avening

Only unfortunate thing about it is they stopped the Thunderbolt port dead in it's tracks! Where's the Thunderbolt "thru" connection? How am I supposed to attach a FW800 device, and my Apple display?

yep, I thought the same thing.

[latestflavor]

It's backwards compatible to FW and USB using a "simple adapter".

The new peripherals will presumably have the "through" ports for thunderbolt. But you will still need the adapter, at the end of your TB chain.

[crypticglobe]

Originally Posted by stag

Who invented it, btw?
I know usb was Intel, fw was texas Instruments but...

According to everything I have read it was suggested to Intel by Apple, and Intel then developed it.

[a.e.neumann]

Originally Posted by cane creek

Theres a Law for this can anybody remember the name ? its named after an American company who announced a new product too early therefore went bust because they couldn't sell any old stock to fund the new product.

It's called "Osborne's Law", and ironically it does not quite apply to the Osborne company, because they were underfinanced to begin with. Read the inside story: Osborne!
Quoting the great Thom Hogan himself:
"You don’t need big burn rates to create big successes. You need ideas, brains, perseverance, and cash flow. Osborne had the first three, but not the fourth. Many of today’s startups are neglecting the fourth because they have a big bank account from funding. That’s a mistake. Cash flow will always get you."

[Marshall Arts]

Originally Posted by NoVi

I spoke to someone from Apogee on Frankfurter messe. Symphony will be moved first to thunderbolt in late 2011. Their other products would be updated to thunderbolt in 2012. So some patience will be required

Dont suppose you heard any ensemble update rumors?

[Timur Born]

The question is not "Who is gonna make it?", but "What will it bring?"!

[Bassmankr]

I see this tech really only being of benefit to the laptop guys as it will be a better interface over Firewire and USB. The desktop or heavy I/O count guys will be better served with PCI/PCIe cards. As for latency, it has to add some over a straight PCIe card because it is taking the extra steps of encoding and decoding light at both ends of the interface.

[roman manlord]

I have a feeling the first one that's made will not be the one you want.

[jamwerks]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

The desktop or heavy I/O count guys will be better served with PCI/PCIe cards. As for latency, it has to add some over a straight PCIe card because it is taking the extra steps of encoding and decoding light at both ends of the interface.

This new connection technology will benefit all users. No need for PciE cards so that saves you $500-$1000. It’s basically an advanced PciE technology so the latency numbers should be in that range or lower. PciE and Usb/FW interfaces will soon disappear. Great time to be interface shopping as by November there should be tons of options!

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

This new connection technology will benefit all users. No need for PciE cards so that saves you $500-$1000.

You still need all the controlling electronics. See below.

It’s basically an advanced PciE technology so the latency numbers should be in that range or lower.

Actually it just extends the existing PCIe bus out of the computer so it will always be slower than a PCIe card inside the computer. It is even one of Intel's selling points for Thunderbolt: Manufacturers will be able to use their current PCIe drivers with minimal change.

There is need of extra controller chips for protocol switching at each end of the cable to switch between DisplayPort and PCIe data. These are extra steps compared to PCIe inside the box so that can't help latency and these extra controllers might even make the technology more expensive. (Although I think pricing will be determined more by economies of scale than anything else so probably more expensive in the beginning and less expensive when and if the tech takes off).

In other words: It is PCIe+DisplayPort on a small plug. It will be interesting for laptop users... maybe... Not so interesting for permanent studio setups with desktop/server computers.

But you know the important thing to remember is that good old legacy PCI already had more than enough bandwidth for 99.9% of all audio applications. We don't need anything new for studio setups and with the current crop of USB cards we don't really need anything new for laptops either.

Alistair

[api2500]

Originally Posted by UnderTow

You still need all the controlling electronics. See below.



Actually it just extends the existing PCIe bus out of the computer so it will always be slower than a PCIe card inside the computer. It is even one of Intel's selling points for Thunderbolt: Manufacturers will be able to use their current PCIe drivers with minimal change.

There is need of extra controller chips for protocol switching at each end of the cable to switch between DisplayPort and PCIe data. These are extra steps compared to PCIe inside the box so that can't help latency and these extra controllers might even make the technology more expensive. (Although I think pricing will be determined more by economies of scale than anything else so probably more expensive in the beginning and less expensive when and if the tech takes off).

In other words: It is PCIe+DisplayPort on a small plug. It will be interesting for laptop users... maybe... Not so interesting for permanent studio setups with desktop/server computers.

But you know the important thing to remember is that good old legacy PCI already had more than enough bandwidth for 99.9% of all audio applications. We don't need anything new for studio setups and with the current crop of USB cards we don't really need anything new for laptops either.

Alistair

Are you saying that TB is useless?

No, it's not revolutionary in computing terms, nothing ever is these days. But for laptop computing. For now, it's miles ahead of anything already, with space to expand in the future.

That's what's exciting people, not the idea that Laptop owners are somehow better than desktop owners.

Besides, all this extra horsepower and technology means that even poorer and poorer performances can be fixed.

[jamwerks]

If TB didn’t bring anything new and better, you wouldn’t hear all the excitement coming from the likes of Avid, Apogee, UAD, MOTU, etc.

True it’s PciE technology but with a much larger bandwidth.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by jamwerks

If TB didn’t bring anything new and better, you wouldn’t hear all the excitement coming from the likes of Avid, Apogee, UAD, MOTU, etc.

I'd be pretty excited about being able to sell new products too if I was a hardware manufacturer.

The extra external bandwidth makes sense for the video and data guys. Less so for the audio guys.

True it’s PciE technology but with a much larger bandwidth.

Thunderbolt does not change the PCIe specs at all. It just extends the bus outside of the computer.

See this picture. The Thunderbolt controller is attached to the current PCIe bus (ignoring DisplayPort for now):



As for bandwidth, PCIe 2.0 gives us 4 Gbit/s per lane. A 16x PCIe card gives us 64Gbit/s compared to Thunderbolt's 20Gbit/s.

But let's put these numbers into perspective: A single 96Khz/24 bit audio stream is about 2.2 Mbit/s. 1024 of those is 2.2 Gbit/s. Of course there is overhead but still...

Alistair

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by api2500

Are you saying that TB is useless?

For who? For what? For audio? For video? For external storage?

If we stick to audio then I would say that for permanent studio setups using desktop/server computers, yes, Thunderbolt is useless. For laptop users? Mostly yes.

But for laptop computing. For now, it's miles ahead of anything already, with space to expand in the future.

There are already products offering 64/64 audio I/O for laptops. I am sure there are people that want or need more I/O than that for their laptops but wouldn't you agree that it is a rather niche market and that most laptop users really don't need more than 64/64 I/O?

That's what's exciting people, not the idea that Laptop owners are somehow better than desktop owners.

You lost me there. Who said anything about anyone being better than anyone else?

Besides, all this extra horsepower and technology means that even poorer and poorer performances can be fixed.

It isn't extra horsepower. It is just extending an existing bus outside of the computer.

Alistair

[PopularDemand]

Very easy to rain on the parade of a new technology that has not even been implemented. Currently for desktop users it doesn't SEEM to offer any benefits but no one knows because there has yet to be a desktop computer with a TB input yet or any TB products on the market.

The one benefit I can see for desktop owners with TB would be no longer having to use a PCIe expansion chassis. But that's now. One year from now...who knows where it's going to be at.

I know cats who are still on Mix+ systems because they feel that technology ceiling was good enough for, not only them, but for the whole world.