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destiny brandon
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19th March 2011
Old 19th March 2011
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Slate VCC vs Waves SSL/API

What does Slate VCC do that just slapping an instance of waves SSL/API/Neve won't do for me? Would love to demo to find out for myself, but I don't have an ilok2.
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19th March 2011
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totally different aspects and types of plugins. waves cannot do vcc.
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19th March 2011
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does waves even have a saturation plugin? Thats what VCC mostly is, right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelead View Post
does waves even have a saturation plugin? Thats what VCC mostly is, right?
no and no
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Quote:
Originally Posted by work2do View Post
totally different aspects and types of plugins. waves cannot do vcc.
i thought that with the waves ssl bundle for example, with the "analog modeling" feature on the plugins, that slapping an SSL Channel on your track was supposed to emulate it being a strip from their board?
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19th March 2011
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Slate VCC vs Waves SSL/API

Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny brandon

i thought that with the waves ssl bundle for example, with the "analog modeling" feature on the plugins, that slapping an SSL Channel on your track was supposed to emulate it being a strip from their board?
I get the feeling waves has less to do with harmonics and more to do with convolutions..
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19th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny brandon View Post
i thought that with the waves ssl bundle for example, with the "analog modeling" feature on the plugins, that slapping an SSL Channel on your track was supposed to emulate it being a strip from their board?
The "Analog" button you're referring to adds harmonic content back to a track, which allows it to have a "full" sound.

I haven't tried the VCC but I love the SSL bundle and personally think it
is worth the purchase.

The SSL emulation is more of the EQ/eq circuit and whatnot. The analog
feature is pretty much becoming kind of a given on plug ins now. If you
really want to spice up your mixes try out Massey tape head or Soundtoys
decapitator. I'd like to try out the VCC but like you, I don't have an Ilok2 yet.
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19th March 2011
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Complete different things. VCC is for (virtual) analog summing, the same while people using analog mixing desks only to play their tracks over it and return it to the DAW. It has nothing todo with a sound of a API compressor or a SSL channelstrip etc. This parts are not used for analog summing.

It's not VCC versus Waves SSL/API its more a "and" Analog summing with VCC _and_ some of this emulations from Waves/UAD/Soundtoys/SSL.
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19th March 2011
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If you don't already own some kick-ass EQ/dynamics plug-ins the Waves SSL/API stuff is a much more sensible purchase.

The VCC adds some pleasant saturation, but it tends to obfuscate the mix when applied liberally. It is a bit of a one-trick pony which is great if you like that particular trick, but you'll get much better mileage from the SSL/API bundle.

Just my $0.02
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19th March 2011
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a bit of topic, but i love the Waves API bundle. Use one of the plugs in every mix.
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There is something that waves do that comes close, its a bit of a secret weapon for me.

Waves Kramer HLS EQ. set that to LINE and Preamp to 50 - 70 and slam the input turn Analog OFF and noise low.

This will give your cold spiky digital sounds that glued analog thing. I use it on everything like this, sometimes i will even use the eq as well.
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The waves modells ONE channel. The vcc modells a console. Input channels and mixbuss (summing amp). You will have the choice to use 4 different models, you can even mix them, so one trick pony is quite off the mark here.
As far as I know, it is a dynamic modell, so not only a snaphot of a console.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronsmith View Post
There is something that waves do that comes close, its a bit of a secret weapon for me.

Waves Kramer HLS EQ. set that to LINE and Preamp to 50 - 70 and slam the input turn Analog OFF and noise low.

This will give your cold spiky digital sounds that glued analog thing. I use it on everything like this, sometimes i will even use the eq as well.
But the HLS is a channel from the Helios desk with EQ and preamp. This is a bit another thing then VCC. You will use the Helios channel mostly for his sweetening EQ? VCC concept is to emulate analog summing ITB.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4damind View Post
But the HLS is a channel from the Helios desk with EQ and preamp. This is a bit another thing then VCC. You will use the Helios channel mostly for his sweetening EQ? VCC concept is to emulate analog summing ITB.
I never said it was the same thing, but use it not as an EQ, just use it as preamp, in LINE mode, on every track.
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For what it's worth I don't hear much of a difference when engaging the "analog" button on the SSL bundle. Other than noise it doesn't seem to add much...

I regularly use a Duality and an AWS, and the Waves EQ is very close.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklight_uk View Post
For what it's worth I don't hear much of a difference when engaging the "analog" button on the SSL bundle. Other than noise it doesn't seem to add much...

I regularly use a Duality and an AWS, and the Waves EQ is very close.
That's all the analog buttons do on the waves stuff - adds hiss to simulate a real piece of equipment. Read the manuals. Useless feature.
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I absolutely don't get how a plugin could ever be able to "emulate" analog summing. Neither the VST- nor the RTAS-architecture allows bypassing or replacing the DAW's digital summing engine. So both the Waves SSL-channel and the VCC do the same, just with a different sound: They emulate analog console channels (the master module is a channel, too), but not the mix BUS.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiF View Post
I absolutely don't get how a plugin could ever be able to "emulate" analog summing. Neither the VST- nor the RTAS-architecture allows bypassing or replacing the DAW's digital summing engine. So both the Waves SSL-channel and the VCC do the same, just with a different sound: They emulate analog console channels (the master module is a channel, too), but not the mix BUS.
AFAIK it is including the mix bus.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklight_uk View Post
For what it's worth I don't hear much of a difference when engaging the "analog" button on the SSL bundle. Other than noise it doesn't seem to add much...

I regularly use a Duality and an AWS, and the Waves EQ is very close.
Yeah, like I said, it's an extremely subtle difference. I had to click on and
off a few times myself to really dig in there to hear what it's doing.

As far as my ears can tell it adds a subtle amount of content back. I notice
most of the changes in the LF/LMF areas. I wanna say there's a wee bit
of shimmer added to the top end but I'm not 100% sure. It seems the analog
button just kinda slightly fattens stuff up for that warm feeling.
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19th March 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiF View Post
I absolutely don't get how a plugin could ever be able to "emulate" analog summing. Neither the VST- nor the RTAS-architecture allows bypassing or replacing the DAW's digital summing engine. So both the Waves SSL-channel and the VCC do the same, just with a different sound: They emulate analog console channels (the master module is a channel, too), but not the mix BUS.
In order to emulate analog summing, you need to reproduce the dynamic nonlinear characteristics of the analog circuits. Therefore, you don't need to replace the simple addition math of digital summing.. you need to introduce code before and after the summing that emulates what the analog summing brings to the table.. dynamic harmonic distortions, component saturation, phase distortion, noise, crosstalk, etc.. This is what the VCC does via its two plugin package.

Its completely different than a plugin that models an equalizer or compressor.
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So basically it's more sensible to use the VCC in tandem with a waves offering from
what I'm gathering...well I mean it doesn't HAVE to be waves but you get my drift I'm
sure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstralPStudios View Post
Yeah, like I said, it's an extremely subtle difference. I had to click on and
off a few times myself to really dig in there to hear what it's doing.

As far as my ears can tell it adds a subtle amount of content back. I notice
most of the changes in the LF/LMF areas. I wanna say there's a wee bit
of shimmer added to the top end but I'm not 100% sure. It seems the analog
button just kinda slightly fattens stuff up for that warm feeling.
The analog button on waves stuff like the SSL bundle adds low-level hiss, nothing else.
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19th March 2011
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good thoughts here. i already do own the waves ssl and api, use them on every session and couldn't live without. just wanted to make sure VCC is actually doing something different before buying it blind, since i can't demo due to the ilok2 thing.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiF View Post
I absolutely don't get how a plugin could ever be able to "emulate" analog summing.
it mostly emulate this by marketing and hype
Quote
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiF View Post
I absolutely don't get how a plugin could ever be able to "emulate" analog summing. Neither the VST- nor the RTAS-architecture allows bypassing or replacing the DAW's digital summing engine. So both the Waves SSL-channel and the VCC do the same, just with a different sound: They emulate analog console channels (the master module is a channel, too), but not the mix BUS.
A digital recording chain does not add anything to the audio by default, it's neutral. Whatever you record in the digital world will actually be truer to the source than when you record in the analog world. Analog always adds to that neutral signal and a product such as VCC adds to the signal in the same fashion that analog does.

The misconception that a lot of people have is that they think of summing audio in terms of math which is wrong. Neither analog or digital have problems with math. A DAW does not have 'problems' with summing audio tracks. It's the sound of the transformers and circuitry that makes analog what it is.
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To some no plugin will ever be able to emulate anything analog. All the while great sounding records are being made ITB everyday. I came up on ssl, 2" in the 90's but I am no where near a gear snob who "hates" everything non analog. The VCC is very nice.

Great explanation below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate Press View Post
In order to emulate analog summing, you need to reproduce the dynamic nonlinear characteristics of the analog circuits. Therefore, you don't need to replace the simple addition math of digital summing.. you need to introduce code before and after the summing that emulates what the analog summing brings to the table.. dynamic harmonic distortions, component saturation, phase distortion, noise, crosstalk, etc.. This is what the VCC does via its two plugin package.

Its completely different than a plugin that models an equalizer or compressor.
RiF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamasdragon View Post
AFAIK it is including the mix bus.
It's not including the BUS itself, it's including a plugin FOR the mix bus.
The BUS is the connection between all the individual channels and the mix channel. In the digital world, it's some simple arithmetic. In the analog world (at least in my own world), it's a grey flat ribbon cable that goes from each channel module to the master module (hopefully I'm right... ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gans Ja View Post
it mostly emulate this by marketing and hype
I don't think so. The only "hype" had been the sound of the Neve-setting when I demoed VCC, it sounded way too hyped for my taste. But I never came close enough to a Neve console to really tell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slate Press View Post
I(..) crosstalk, etc.. This is what the VCC does via its two plugin package.(..)
To emulate crosstalk (or any other stuff that comes from the interaction of the channel signals), do the channel plugins "speak" to the 2bus plugin (bypassing the DAWs summing engine, so to speak)?

PS: By no means I want to show any disrespect regarding your product (I have been quite impressed when demoing it), I just want to understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
A digital recording chain does not add anything to the audio by default, it's neutral. (..)
The misconception that a lot of people have is that they think of summing audio in terms of math which is wrong.
+1! The "digital summing is wrong" debate is complete BS. You brought it to the point: Digital summing is NOT wrong, it is completely right. That perfection seems to be it's flaw, becasue analog summing is not complete right (due to all these nonlinearites) and that seems to be prefered by some people (me included).
Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
A DAW does not have 'problems' with summing audio tracks. It's the sound of the transformers and circuitry that makes analog what it is.
Now we're getting somewhere. I guess that VCC can get close to analog summing, because the summing itself might not have the most influence on the outcoming sound, but the analog circuitry on all the individual channels might. If this is the case, the VCC-approach could get close to what I get when I run 16 channels out to my Soundtracs Megas and back into Pro Tools and liking the result better than simply bussing it digitally to the mix bus.
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What is about Soundtoys Juce? Is this "only" a analog channel emulation or will it goes in the same direction like VCC?
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True crosstalk (sample by sample isn't possible in a DAW, There can be interaction of some kind on the bus instances L to R channel, and there are ways of trying to simulate a crosstalk like effect, but true actual multichannel crosstalk would have to be built into the DAW itself and would probably be VERY resource intensive requiring a different kind of math.


Back on topic: VCC and Waves, very different beasts.
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VCC doesn't have full channel strips for doing compression and EQ in the sound of SSL/API. But it's not supposed to, it's a summing plug-in.

Waves is designed to be used on a channel-by-channel basis, using the plugin to make each channel sound how you want it to.

VCC is designed to be used on every channel, so that when all the plugins are being used together, and the bus plugin is being used on the end, it simulates the sound of summing your channels through the chosen console. There's no real option to achieve this on the Waves plugins.

So, just because they both do SSL/API, it doesn't make them at all comparable. For the most analogue sounding ITB mixing, get both (as well as some other stuff!).

Summary: Waves are designed to work as individual plugins, VCC is designed to work as one effect, even though it is applied across multiple plugins.
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