Login / Register
 
Lowest latency - meaning 0 latency! Logic Pro 9
New Reply
Subscribe
headrc
Thread Starter
#1
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #1
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 93

Thread Starter
headrc is offline
Lowest latency - meaning 0 latency! Logic Pro 9

Hi all ..well I finally loaded Logic Pro 9 and have fooled around with Mainstage with my Apogee mini me. Ouch ......a latency of 5 ms is not acceptable to me for what I do. That is the lowest that I can get with all the settings and monitoring options and still have good audio. Really???? Is there no way to get 0 latency with this stuff? I have been using a Boss BR1600 for recording the last couple of years ....and wanted to move from it because despite external mic pre's and ad/da converters ....I am still unhappy with the high end transients. But there is no latency with that box ....period ...you can play to a click and be right on the money. Ugh ....if you cannot do this with Logic Pro and a high quality interface .....then I can't use this stuff. This is blowing my mind ....I know lots of folks are using this ..am I missing something here??
#2
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,488

Timur Born is offline
1) There *is* latency with your box. The AD/DA converters alone introduce that.

2) 5 ms (roundtrip?) is not low enough? Superhuman!
#3
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #3
Gear maniac
 
Bretster's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 268

Bretster is offline
5ms seems pretty darn good to me! The only thing I've heard that is any better is the apogee symphony, and don't quote me on it since I really don't know.

Lowest latency I can get is around 7.5ms

Latency sucks, but its a reality you need to accept.

If you need zero latency you better get an analog tape machine and fly your tracks in. Its just me, but I do love the sound of analog tape!
__________________
My new motto: Any progress is good progress!

Cheers
#4
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #4
Gear addict
 
Sounddesigner's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382

Sounddesigner is offline
I use Sonic Core SCOPE dsp Platform at 96khz samplerate. Not quite Zero-latency but i believe it's under 1ms Roundtrip so pretty darn close. And i use all the effects, synths, samplers i want without my Enviroment's latency rising and still have the computer and a second Native enviroment for Ultra-low-latency processing with Native plugins at 96khz. I believe two heads are better then one.

Raising your samplerate is the best advice i can give you. I'm definitely a believer in 'the lower your latency the better', and that the lower your latency is the more your able to accomplish. I would take the extreme negative values if i could adjust them when needed -999ms.


EDITED
__________________
Firebird+ is a must. SonicCore SCOPE is the most. As heart of studio it has my vote, cause XITE-1 is all she wrote.
#5
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,476

Bill@WelcomeHome is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounddesigner View Post
....and that the lower your latency is the more your able to accomplish. I would take the extreme negative values if i could adjust them when needed -999ms.


EDITED

...so the sound gets to you .001ms before you make it? cool.
#6
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #6
Gear addict
 
Sounddesigner's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382

Sounddesigner is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome View Post
...so the sound gets to you .001ms before you make it? cool.

I don't know if your being sarcastic or not but i'll explain altho i do feel it's a simple and self-explanatory concept already. There are situations in music production where extreme amounts of latency can be produced so i mentioned that i'd take if i could get negative values that are adjustable to compensate and keep things in a timely manner. A timely manner can be 1ms, or zero or even as your joke suggest 'the processed sound getting to you before you make the sound' if your into that type of special effect

PS. Simply put, the less latency you have the more your capable of accomplishing.


EDITED
headrc
Thread Starter
#7
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #7
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 93

Thread Starter
headrc is offline
Well superhuman "NOT" .....all I know is what I hear ...and it definitely is not usable so far ...and this new setup does not compare to that Boss Unit regarding that aspect. Playing and recording with that unit against a click track is just like playing in the analog world. What I am experiencing with Logic Pro and the apogee mini me is not .....so either I am missing something here or I am going to have to forgo using this approach. I gotta believe it is operator error in some way ....but I have searched all over the Logic Pro info etc. and from what I can tell everything is set properly. It is really hard for m to believe that ppl are using this stuff with the delay I am hearing.
#8
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,385

blacklion is offline
is there such a thing as zero latency? there's certainly no such thing as negative latency. That's to say the ball is in the air before you even threw it.

Perhaps your input monitoring is not set properly so your getting playback through your software and interface at the same time? Is there a 'direct monitoring' process in Logic or your Mini Me?
__________________

#9
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 756

TimOBrienFlorida is offline
Sound moves at 1foot/ms so unless you have your head stuck down in your speakers....
#10
24th January 2011
Old 24th January 2011
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 588

bensaddiction is offline
I suggest you learn some maths & figure out how short 5ms actually is vs the speed of sound... ever played music in a band with other musos were you are standing apart in a medium to large sized room? You were probably 5ms or more apart & would be able to detect a difference


The extra latency you might be finding difficult might be from plugins with their own delay compensation


People can't really detect latency till its gets closer to 15-20ms so if its unusable at 5ms then it probably has more to do with extra delay compensation than the buffer size

I'm not trying to come across as rude but I think your a little misinformed, also that Boss BR1600 DOES have latency!!!! No digital devices are 100% latency free when DA/AD is involved its just a fact that will always be the case. But I guess because you don't know about the latency that you haven't been worried (psychoacoustics), but if you research it you will probably find that its latency is 5ms or more...

You won't be detecting 5ms of latency, but there might be lots of delay from plugins while your working, with tend to multiply the buffer delay settings so you might actually be working at around 30-50ms of latency due to plugs like UAD, Nebula, IR reverbs
headrc
Thread Starter
#11
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #11
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 93

Thread Starter
headrc is offline
Yes there is direct monitoring on the mini me ...I tried it ..same thing. Of course I will check and recheck things ....but all I can say is what I am hearing is not usable ...5 ms or not. I guess there is no way to get 0 latency. How do hardware processors do it then? I use a Jamman looper ..it has ad/da ...I don't hear the latency I hear with this setup. Same concept IMO ....a looper is nothing more than a small computer recorder IMO ....and again ..I double checked on the Boss unit. I do not hear the latency/delay I am hearing with the mini me and Logic Pro/Mainstage. Still scratching my head on this one ....I welcome finding out I have it set up wrong. Once again ...set up is guitar into Apogee mini me ...firewire to the Macbook Pro. Buffer as low as possible of 32 ....latency is 5 ms and I am monitoring through the Mini Me (and I tried the internal output too). I play a clean guitar sound and I hear the sound coming back with the delay ....too much to play right on top of the click as I try to do.
#12
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,476

Bill@WelcomeHome is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by headrc View Post
Yes there is direct monitoring on the mini me ...I tried it ..same thing. Of course I will check and recheck things ....but all I can say is what I am hearing is not usable ...5 ms or not. I guess there is no way to get 0 latency. How do hardware processors do it then? I use a Jamman looper ..it has ad/da ...I don't hear the latency I hear with this setup. Same concept IMO ....a looper is nothing more than a small computer recorder IMO ....and again ..I double checked on the Boss unit. I do not hear the latency/delay I am hearing with the mini me and Logic Pro/Mainstage. Still scratching my head on this one ....I welcome finding out I have it set up wrong. Once again ...set up is guitar into Apogee mini me ...firewire to the Macbook Pro. Buffer as low as possible of 32 ....latency is 5 ms and I am monitoring through the Mini Me (and I tried the internal output too). I play a clean guitar sound and I hear the sound coming back with the delay ....too much to play right on top of the click as I try to do.
Perhaps the delay that bothers you is occurring because you have direct monitoring happening and then the following sound of the signal traveling through the software. Turn off direct monitoring and see if that helps.
#13
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 588

bensaddiction is offline
Click the "Low latency mode" button in Logic


If the amount of delay your feeling goes down then your problem is your playing guitar along with many plugins that are causing delay compensation.

Try a fresh template with nothing in it except your guitar going straight in. Delete all other plugs and amp sims - hows that? then add stuff one at a time...
#14
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,385

blacklion is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by headrc View Post
Yes there is direct monitoring on the mini me ...I tried it ..same thing. Of course I will check and recheck things ....but all I can say is what I am hearing is not usable ...5 ms or not. I guess there is no way to get 0 latency. How do hardware processors do it then? I use a Jamman looper ..it has ad/da ...I don't hear the latency I hear with this setup. Same concept IMO ....a looper is nothing more than a small computer recorder IMO ....and again ..I double checked on the Boss unit. I do not hear the latency/delay I am hearing with the mini me and Logic Pro/Mainstage. Still scratching my head on this one ....I welcome finding out I have it set up wrong. Once again ...set up is guitar into Apogee mini me ...firewire to the Macbook Pro. Buffer as low as possible of 32 ....latency is 5 ms and I am monitoring through the Mini Me (and I tried the internal output too). I play a clean guitar sound and I hear the sound coming back with the delay ....too much to play right on top of the click as I try to do.
It's strange that your direct monitoring is the same as your software monitoring unless you're using dsp stuff or whatever. You should notice a delay between these two things. When you monitor is there just a delay or does it sound like a delayed chorus type effect?

So you're saying that playing a DI guitar, with no plugs, with direct monitoring on at a buffer size of 32 and 5ms latency is resulting in monitoring delay? That can't be right. At this setting, crackling audio would be more of a concern rather than monitoring delay.

suggestion: DL Reaper or open another DAW if you have one and duplicate your settings and see if there is still a problem with latency. At least this way, you can see if it's a setting in Logic that is the problem.
#15
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,476

Bill@WelcomeHome is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounddesigner View Post

PS. Simply put, the less latency you have the more your capable of accomplishing.


EDITED
This is impossible in any production scenario involving computers. Nothing moves without the clock ticking. The OS alone adds a delay, as does every branch of processing through which we send a signal. If it only comes in and comes back out, it at least goes through the soundcard, through the os to the app, through the OS again, through the sound card again. Add eq, or any other processing, you've added additional latency as you've made the trip through the app longer.

The A/D adds latency, as does the D/A.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, sound travels at roughly 1100 feet per second. Going by the OPs hypothesis, there is significant delay between a player and his amp 20 feet away, or between two players standing 10 feet apart. I don't find that delay to be problematical, though I am differing distances from and among the various people, instruments, and amps with whom I might be performing. Somehow we all make coherent music together. To me, 5ms is not significant. However, a direct monitoring signal with a following delayed matching signal from the DAW of 15-500 ms would be darned distracting.

Lower latencies in production situations results in less capabilities as the computer is pushing harder to try to handle realtime processing. Increase the latency, and you'll be able to do more.
#16
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,898

Joe Porto is offline
The only way to get 0ms latency is to monitor your input source through an analog queue mixer before hitting your A/D.

You can get ALMOST 0ms latency if your hardware interface supports "0 latency monitoring" which links the AD to the DA without going through the DAW. At this point, you will only have converter latency.

If you want to monitor through the DAW and plugins, RME or Apogee PCI based interfaces will get you around 3ms roundtrip at 44.1k with a decent computer.

Best I can get with my Duet (FW) is 5ms, and I have no problem using guitar processing plugins (which will add some latency as well). As others have said. 5ms isn't bad at all. A hardware synth will have anywhere from 3-10ms of latency, and they are recorded and used live all the time.
#17
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #17
Gear addict
 
Sounddesigner's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382

Sounddesigner is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill@WelcomeHome View Post
This is impossible in any production scenario involving computers. Nothing moves without the clock ticking. The OS alone adds a delay, as does every branch of processing through which we send a signal. If it only comes in and comes back out, it at least goes through the soundcard, through the os to the app, through the OS again, through the sound card again. Add eq, or any other processing, you've added additional latency as you've made the trip through the app longer.

The A/D adds latency, as does the D/A.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, sound travels at roughly 1100 feet per second. Going by the OPs hypothesis, there is significant delay between a player and his amp 20 feet away, or between two players standing 10 feet apart. I don't find that delay to be problematical, though I am differing distances from and among the various people, instruments, and amps with whom I might be performing. Somehow we all make coherent music together. To me, 5ms is not significant. However, a direct monitoring signal with a following delayed matching signal from the DAW of 15-500 ms would be darned distracting.

Lower latencies in production situations results in less capabilities as the computer is pushing harder to try to handle realtime processing. Increase the latency, and you'll be able to do more.
Your first paragraph only makes my point. There is latency comming from alot of places when dealing with computers i.e asio i/o, converters, distance from monitors, delay compensation, etc So in a cumulative-latency-enviroment the logical thing to do is try to eliminate as much latency as you can so you can do more time-critical things while Mixing, etc

As for your last paragraph you state that raising your buffer-size/latency allows you to do more, this is true for non-realtime stuff but for people who need to track thru effects, headphone monitoring, playing instruments, etc raising buffers is not what's wanted. And for chaining effects or using single effects with large latencies the higher the buffer the less you can do these things REALtime. So the more you raise your buffer the more non-realtime things you can do but if you want to do both non-realtime and Realtime tasks together (together is more) then you'll need to figure out how to keep your buffer small and able to do all that you need aswell. There is alot more to music production then just non-time-critical processes such as Most of Mixing tasks, Mastering, etc And many of us simply just like to make music and do all stages together often.

You state that raising the buffer increases the power, this is true due to a fundamental flaw with Native world and in some peoples eyes like myself higher buffer means less powerful/capable. There is no buffer raising in Realtime dsp enviroments and when combined with Native i do all that i want without latency issues, compromises, etc.

I don't know why i have to constantly explain something that is so simple to understand "the less latency you have the more your able to accomplish", unless your just negatively biased and looking to bash and destroy an arguement cause it's a threat to your own beliefs. If argueing is what you want i'm not interested. I've made my points and will leave it to the readers to use common sense and decide for themselves whats truth. And leave it to the moderators aswell. I'm not going to go in circular arguements nor do i have the time so i'm finished here.


EDITED
#18
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #18
Lives for gear
 
valis's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Northwest USA
Posts: 4,597

valis is offline
Probably misunderstanding that Scope+Xite does all of the processing on the dsp cards with minimal latency compared to a host based (OS+computer+DAW) based system. Essentially you have the incoming AD (if any) and a few samples worth of buffer on the dsp chip and then output DA for anything that's done within Scope itself...

In any case the info the OP wants has been communicated already. Unless he's going to invest in an Xite then the solution is either to do hardware monitoring (mixing the 'monitor mix' in your soundcard's mixer) and/or software monitoring without any master bus effects and low latency mode enabled.
#19
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #19
Lives for gear
 
filipv's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2010
Location: Dolno Sonje, Sopiste, Macedonia
Posts: 1,157

filipv is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by headrc View Post
Well superhuman "NOT" .....all I know is what I hear ...and it definitely is not usable so far ..
If it's not usable then it's not 5 ms. I can't think of a scenario in which 5 (five) miliseconds of latency is too much... or even noticeable.
#20
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Arksun's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2006
Location: Cotswolds, UK
Posts: 1,731

Arksun is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklion View Post
It's strange that your direct monitoring is the same as your software monitoring unless you're using dsp stuff or whatever. You should notice a delay between these two things. When you monitor is there just a delay or does it sound like a delayed chorus type effect?
Just what I was thinking. It suggests something else in his audio chain is adding some additional millisecond delays to the point where it becomes distracting.

It is also possible he's very hyper sensitive to delays. When it comes to playing soft-synths via keyboard. I find in Cubase, 40ms ASIO latency setting totally unacceptable, 20ms, bit uncomfortable but, dooable.

10ms, comfortable, not razy sharp but, comfortable enough for all playing. 8ms or lower, feels nice and sharp response, perfect. I can't tell difference in anything 8ms or below at all.
__________________
Music Producer | Sound Designer
http://www.arksun-sound.com
#21
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #21
Lives for gear
 
GoldMember's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,221

GoldMember is offline
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by headrc View Post
Hi all ..well I finally loaded Logic Pro 9 and have fooled around with Mainstage with my Apogee mini me. Ouch ......a latency of 5 ms is not acceptable to me for what I do. That is the lowest that I can get with all the settings and monitoring options and still have good audio. Really???? Is there no way to get 0 latency with this stuff? I have been using a Boss BR1600 for recording the last couple of years ....and wanted to move from it because despite external mic pre's and ad/da converters ....I am still unhappy with the high end transients. But there is no latency with that box ....period ...you can play to a click and be right on the money. Ugh ....if you cannot do this with Logic Pro and a high quality interface .....then I can't use this stuff. This is blowing my mind ....I know lots of folks are using this ..am I missing something here??

the only 0-latency is Sonic Core Xite-1
or PT HD
#22
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #22
Gear maniac
 
mardyk's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 252

mardyk is offline
If you're using direct monitoring on the Apogee make sure you turn off software monitoring.
it's in the audio prefs in Logic.
#23
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Aint Nobody's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,910

Aint Nobody is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by headrc View Post
Is there no way to get 0 latency with this stuff?
Monitor direct.

Otherwise...


... No.
#24
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #24
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 92

kt66 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldMember View Post
the only 0-latency is Sonic Core Xite-1
or PT HD

Wrong...

Despite what many (incorrectly) believe, PT HD does indeed have latency - and possibly more than you might imagine. A good native DAW on a fast modern computer with a good audio interface can actually provide you with lower latency than a TDM system does. Converters will add latency in and out, so any digital system will have some detectable latency.
#25
25th January 2011
Old 25th January 2011
  #25
Gear nut
 
gardinen's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: Trollhättan, Sweden
Posts: 107

Send a message via ICQ to gardinen Send a message via AIM to gardinen Send a message via MSN to gardinen
gardinen is offline
I believe the latency of Pro Tools HD (at least the old Digidesign stuff) i 2.54ms roundtrip.
#26
26th January 2011
Old 26th January 2011
  #26
Lives for gear
 
valis's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Northwest USA
Posts: 4,597

valis is offline
Scope uses internal buffers for the DSP chips as well as AD/DA latency from the converters as well...but it's certainly not worse than any of my VA hardware when it comes to responsiveness to midi input on a Scope synth.
headrc
Thread Starter
#27
26th January 2011
Old 26th January 2011
  #27
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 93

Thread Starter
headrc is offline
OK ...maybe some progress here. I played around a lot with Mainstage today. Trying to delete plugins etc. Nothing corrected what I was hearing ....and I am monitoring thru the Apogee Mini me ....I have tried changing the mix between the the direct and processed signal. Definitely a significant delay that was unusable for me. And earlier in the day the stats kept telling me I had a 5 ms round trip latency. Then ...I went up to 88.2 on the mini me .....with an I/O buffer of 64 ...it then told me that I had a round tip latency of a little over 7 MS ....but what I was hearing started to sound and feel acceptable. But I do not understand why I was being informed of a latency of 5 MS with lower sample rate etc ....but it was unusable. No matter what I did this afternoon ......there was no getting back to the 5 MS indication. So I believe I was not experiencing 5 MS latency. Raining here today ....wonder if the puter is having a bad day? LOL ..... Another question .... will bit rate affect this as well ? The Mini me will do 16 20 and 24 bit. And regarding this new development ...all I was doing was running through a lot of the presets again ...so I do not believe the culprit is some of the processing/plug ins in these patches. I still find the 7 MS needing improvement. So I agree that I must not have been experiencing 5 MS latency but why the computer told me that ...I have no idea. I know I am not crazy because I have screen shot of it telling me that with the lower sample rate ...but again to my ears and playing it was unusable. It had to be larger latency. Any more ideas on how to get the latency down further? And now I am faced with a higher sample rate for recording etc. ....meaning more storage etc. Thanks all for your patience and input.
#28
26th January 2011
Old 26th January 2011
  #28
Lives for gear
 
valis's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Northwest USA
Posts: 4,597

valis is offline
Higher samplerates reduce latency at the expense of the increased performance required to run them, and you're likely to find this increases geometrically with the complexity of your project.

Logic will apply PDC to all audio (including the selected track) based on plugins in your mixing structure to keep things 'time aligned' (dependant on your settings in Logic Prefs > Audio > General > Plug-in Latency > Compensation.) There's a setting (I think mentioned above) called 'Low Latency Mode' that will attempt to disable plugins that incur high latency (like FIR eq's) but overall you're best off (imho) learning which plugins incur high latency and avoiding them during tracking & live use (save them for the final mix.)

If you're trying to loop a signal through the interface, then what you're really dealing with isn't the latency from the buffer size but rather the full *round trip* of the signal from input through the processing chain and back out. See Sounddesigner's suggestions about Scope, as that gives you similar abilities to native DAW apps but with a very low latency system.
#29
26th January 2011
Old 26th January 2011
  #29
Gear maniac
 
Elevteros's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Location: An island in the Aegean
Posts: 162

Elevteros is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur View Post
1)

5 ms (roundtrip?) is not low enough? Superhuman!
Absolutely!!!

In 5 ms sound travels about 1 meter 50.

A musician (e.g. a guitar player) standing on a stage 3 meters from his amp will hear his instrument with a 10 ms latency!!
__________________
Life is too short to waste your time not enjoying yourself
#30
26th January 2011
Old 26th January 2011
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,488

Timur Born is offline
So he needs 10 ms to adjust his playing if he isn't happy with what he hears? I'm not sure if *that* alone will spoil the gig.

Especially knowing that the average reaction time for audio events + physical reaction (=move hand) is something like 150 - 200 ms for most people (which is faster than visual events already). It just takes that long for your brain to understand what's happening.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
aquablu8 / Music Computers
24
Roger Starr / Music Computers
58
matttech / Music Computers
22

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.