Why the bad Rap for Cubase?

[2064]

I just spend a day messing around with Cubase sx and had a great time doing so. I´m a Pro Tools HD user using Logic as my front end. For 2 years now I still have to think about what I´m doing with Logic. I should bear in mind that using any software as a front end for Pro Tools does make the flow a little harder to get in to. I know Logic quite well but have always felt that Logic was in charge of the situation. Not me. (even though its very customiseable)

In a nutshell Cubase made it so much easier to get on with making music. It has a routine that Logic doesnt have and I got to know it very fast. Its not as customiseable, but why should that be a disadvantage. Overall, it felt very pro but most of all very musical (the quantise patterns were excellent)

So why all the negativity towards Cubase. Although only 1 day messing around I dont think theres anything Cubase couldnt do that Logic could. Its widely perceived that Logic is a superior Daw than Logic. I´m not so sure thats true.

Anybody ever move from Logic to Cubase?

[tunesmith]

Switch from Logic to Cubase.
Switch FROM Logic TO Cubase.
SWITCH from Logic to Cubase.
Switch from Logic to CUBASE?!!?!

Nope... It just doesn't ring correctly. I have tried saying it every possible way.

I don't have anything real to add. I just wanted to be an ass.

Tunes

[Renie]

I used cubase years ago and had so much hassle with it and downtime in studios that I couldn't wait to get Logic. The change over resulted in a massive improvement in reliability, same for Pro Tools. I'd be nervous of ever going back to Steinberg but always have an open mind.

[jazzius]

I've used Cubase SX extensively so i have some views on it......

.......great features, pretty cool interface....you can zip about it very quick......not nearly so customizable as Logic, but in a way that's a good thing......you don't spend time machinating (is that a word?) on how to go about things.......there's usually only one way (unlike logic) so you just get on with it.......VST is implemented perfectly.....unlike LAP, who's VST intergration is a joke.......half-hearted and grudging would be how i'd describe it (i'm talking about PC here.......maybe it's completely different with MAC........anyway, they're moving away from VST to AU aren't they?)

BUT, i'd say that SX is really a toy........i say this because when pushed really hard (CPU wise and complexity-wise), things go pear-shaped fairly quickly......... the bugs make it practically unusable.......mysterious things happen, and you're never really confident that everything is working as it should.......also, it lacks pro features......sidechains are non-existent.......what pro engineer doesn't use sidechains?......there are no channel gain trims.....insanity........when you use this software you know for a fact that the people designing it are not pro producers/engineers......they are pro software designers.....a different thing..........YMMV

[infiniteposse]

For a slightly historical perspective (as I understand this bit of history), Cubase started long ago on Atari. After this it got ported to Mac and then ported to PC years later. My understanding is that the code didn't get a lot of overhauls during this process and as a result the program got buggier and buggier. This is just how I've come to understand things through a sort of geek oral tradition.

I've heard SX is a full rewrite though and that it's much more stable.

Having said that though, the geek oral tradition got me onto logic around 1997 or so and I've been with it since and have used PC and Mac versions. Complicated, yes. I, however, tend to just use it for what I need to use it for and let people who get off on playing with enviornments and the like play away. I, too, find those kinds of functions cumbersome, but I like the sound of it, love the plugins and it's rock solid for me. Emagic is also well known for very well written code and way less bloat...and hence less bugs.

My experiences have been positive personally.

To see cute old pics of atari cubase go to:
http://tamw.atari-users.net/cubase.htm

[Rab]

To continue the previous history lesson... I think a lot of "pro" users got a downer on Cubase when it stopped developing DAE support for Pro Tools, so you effectively had no choice but to drop it for another platform (Logic, DP, Vision). At about the same time Steinberg seemed to have a very obvious strategy of developing for PC over mac (makes sense in business terms) so they lost faith with that whole market. I guess it's a lot harder to win trust back than it is to blow it in the first place. With Apple buying out Emagic, the choice can surely only get more obvious?

[bassix]

Isn't it so that Steinberg aim for the professional market with that other product (Nuendo)?

Afaik SX and SL are tools that enable musicians to piece together their songs in an easy way and aren't meant to be the heart of a recording studio. Hence the fairly low price of the product. Isn't comparing it with Logic or Pro Tools a case of apples and oranges?

Having said that, have you guys had a look at Nuendo 2 yet? At least its got knobs and sliders for the input gains so that might be one small step for Steinberg but a giant leap for mankind

Apart from its current version apparently being filled with bugs at least the design of this beast looks to be an improvement over both SX and the old Nuendo.

[2064]

I cant deny I am (or was) one of those that believed Cubase to be a bit of a toy. If Logic couldnt operate as a front end for PT would it still have the same reputation. Again I´m not so sure. I do agree Steinberg dropping tdm support was a bad move. As for bugs I didnt notice anything although it wasnt the most extensive trial.

After my limited session with Cubase I cant be so dissmissive of Cubase. All my knowledge of Cubase was based on what I had read with most of it being negative. And a visit to the Cubase forum is enough to scare anyone of the program.
As I suspected there doesnt seem to be anyone that has switched from Logic To Cubase

Obviously I cant use Cubase but I did like many of its features. If I moved to a native system which is my plan in the nesr future I would definitely be considering Cubase. Heck I could easily have Logic and Cubase in my setup.

Thanks for the responses

[smoothmoniker]

About 3 years ago, Emagic started hitting LA and NYC with endorsements in a huge way, particularly with young programmers and keyboardists.

They basically bought a generation of pro users. It's worked. In LA it's become the standard platform for most of my programming clients.

-sm

[2064]

Bombguy

If you're doing serious stuff, it's really not an option. But if you have a lot of patience and don't have the bucks to drop on a proper rig, it's the best bang for the buck out there by a long, long way.

Not trying to nitpick here (and btw I love my Bombfactory Plugins :) or get off the subject but I feel your comment is maybe why few ´pros´ would bother to give Cubase a look. I agree with your other points but I have to wonder what you mean by a proper rig. Do you mean a better Daw? I have an HD2 system and use Logic as my front end. On top of that I have my much needed high end outboard. Is that a proper rig? Just interested to know what you mean.

[Pricey]

Hmmmm . . . we had this same discussion on ProSoundWeb, and Bombguy said the same thing - "Pro Tools is the only 'professional' DAW."

Cubase SX is pretty buggy, but Nuendo is a different story. A souped-up Nuendo system (with dual CPU's, third-party DSP cards, lots of RAM, and SCSI disks) can easily outperform Pro Tools HD. It has a better user interface, and better editing features.

It also has certain drawbacks, because it isn't a mature platform. It has latency, and it's not suitable for post-production.

Each platform has pros and cons. Pick whatever suits your working style. Like I said on PSW, there is no need for this quasi-religious bigotry between users of different platforms. I mean, they BOTH suck compared to top-quality analog.

Here's the PSW discussion, but be warned, it's a LONG thread.

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7221

[2064]

Eric I agree, valid points for the most part and if I was running a commercial facility there would be little option but to remain with PT´s for the foreseeable future. But I cant agree that Cubase SX is a toy for no other reason than that toy can achieve a lot more than my former analog studio ever could. Its also responsible for many european hits which is an important point to consider because I beleive Cubase is much more popular in Europe than in America just as PC´s are over Macs.

Still as a Pro Tools/Logic user I was very impressed with my limited time on Cubase. Since then I have downloaded the demo and thoroughly enjoying messing around with it. In all honesty I cant see its shortcomings as others do I can see a lot more shortcomings in Pro Tools to be blunt. Maybe I´m missing something obvious?

[2064]

Hi Eric,
I have a question that you may be able to answer. Do TDM plugs sound better thn Native ones. I realise you can only give an opinion on this but that will do fine :). It would be interesting to hear your view on this seeing as you develop plugins.

Speaking of plugins I wish someone would do a decent well equipped Delay plugin for TDM. Most are to clinical especially Digis own ones. Something with a crossfeedback would be great. Maybe I´m the only one that feels this way?. An Eg would be the delays found in Rolands SRV range , Yamaha Rev 7, Ensoniq DP4. I still have to use these boxes just for the delays. Surely someone could emulate them?

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by Pricey
It has a better user interface, ...

No.
PT has the most intutive structure I have ever seen.

[Pricey]

Originally posted by Ruphus
PT has the most intutive structure I have ever seen.

Have you tried Nuendo? Or RADAR? I haven't tried RADAR, but it's supposed to be amazing. Dedicated editing keys, no mouse.

Originally posted by bombguy
As a result of all these factors, the best sounding plug-in effects are TDM-based and it looks to remain that way for quite a while.
--Erik [/b]

Wrong. The best sounding plug-ins on ANY platform are those on the UAD-1 card. To avoid the piracy problem, they decided to make it a closed platform. (BTW, the plugs have been ported to TDM, but the TDM versions are real DSP hogs.)

Pro Tools sells more systems in a week than Nuendo has ever sold.

How do you calculate this? Break down the figures, please. TDM vs. Nuendo, and LE vs. Cubase.

Nuendo is a much newer platform. If I am not mistaken, Nuendo sales are increasing while PT sales are declining.

Hint: TDM is an audio bus, not a plug-in format.

Okay, Mr. Mysterious. It's an audio bus. It has low latency because the whole system runs on DSP's. I was aware of that.

I'm an infrequent visitor to Gearslutz. Why isn't Bombguy's self-serving PR isn't being challenged? Aren't there any native users here?!?

PT and Nuendo are equally "professional" systems. The choice between the two really comes down to business considerations. Bombguy says that in his experience, PT brings in more clients than analog does. This may be true. But I don't LIKE Pro Tools. I prefer Nuendo. I would rather tough it out and try to educate my clients, than kowtow to people's ignorance and herd mentality. I think that RESULTS are more important than a "brand name" if you want to succeed.

I'm not saying PT is a bad system. People should use whatever suits their working style. But I think its market dominance needs to be challenged. Digidesign is an extremely arrogant company, and PT users are even more arrogant. They try to get clients by hyping PT and lying about other platforms.

[faeflora]

---- quote
Wrong. The best sounding plug-ins on ANY platform are those on the UAD-1 card. To avoid the piracy problem, they decided to make it a closed platform. (BTW, the plugs have been ported to TDM, but the TDM versions are real DSP hogs.)
---- end quote


Oh my f'ing gosh. Shut the f' up. Aggh do not, do NOT, DO NOT troll for bombguy.

bombguy please PLEASE PLEASE don't bite!

sheesh.

Anyways


Cubase sucks. Use Logic.


Wait, Logic sucks too.

But both companies are totally assured that their products are perfect. They have no flaws. What may seem like a flaw is a feature. Kinda like Logic's feature where the user has to trick Logic into fully utilizing a dual processor mac. And kinda like the feature how Logic is not a multithreaded app and how Logic isn't cocafied and how changing highlighted tracks in the arrange window will insert a 1 second gap into all recording tracks.

Heil Fuhrer steinmagic. Fascism lives! If I could afford PT I'd use it. If I could pirate Logic 6 I WOULD. One day I'll get back the thousands of dollars the emagic ****ers stole from me with their lies.

[iomegaman]

First of all let's hope bombguy doesn't post any more sales pitches, and to correct him TDM is not an audio bus it is originally a protocol developed by the phone company for data transfer, it just so happens that it work very well with audio. It has become a bus but it is not limited to audio so it's not really an audio bus. Oddly enough in the PC world you can transfer bulk much more accurately than you can TDM, it just isn't time guarenteed, and furthermore almost all audio is shipped TDM even if you are not using a dedicated dsp card to do it, it is a protocol that is easily built into chips.

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definit...214174,00.html

As far as Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Neundo not being Pro platforms that is just a angry sales pitch from a guy who makes his living pitching his product to the profools market...consider the source.

Mac vs. Pc ????grow up.

There are a lot of professionals who have used these platforms to produce and record award winning music, I can think of at least 20 just off the top of my head.

Bottom line if you are comfortable with it, use it. I played Les Pauls for years, I play a Strat now...because I like the feel and sound of it. Hans Zimmer has made millions using Gigastudio and one of these lesser sequencing platforms...I'll take "What is Cubase for $1500.00 Alex"....I really enjoy his quote at the end of the article....

“If you think about it, we’re working on some hundred million dollar movie and we’re relying on a $1,500 computer to finish it. So, at the end of the day, the whole responsibility rests on a $1,000 piece of software,” he adds.

http://www.apple.com/pro/music/zimmer/

So before you let some guy whose livelihood depends on his ability to sell (a very good product IMHO) blow smoke up your ass do a little research on your product you might actually be suprised to find out that the real talent isn't written in code...

[2064]

Eric, thanks for your ´opinion´. Some very interesting points there particularly regarding tdm and native programmers. Seems like your opinion brushes some up the wrong way however. Totally agree with ¨¨You would think Digidesign they would get around to making a decent plugin¨¨. I have to give Emagic their due on that one as their bundled plugs are pretty decent. With Digis 400 staff it makes me wonder what they do all day. Perhaps its 398 administration and 2 programmers!

While I agree many TDM plugs sound better than their native counterpart I cant say that for them all. As you said your own plugs sound the same in both formats and as I also have the ESB bridge I am able to try out some native stuff and I do like what I hear on many of them. In saying that I always check out the more exotic ones. Still, havent heard a half decent native reverb yet except Ableton Live Reverb which in my opinion is the best native stock reverb I have yet heard. Easily superior to Digis D Verb and Logics Platinum Reverb.


So Eric are you going to build me A DP4 Dual Delay plugin .

Faeflora

Heil Fuhrer steinmagic. Fascism lives! If I could afford PT I'd use it. If I could pirate Logic 6 I WOULD. One day I'll get back the thousands of dollars the emagic ****ers stole from me with their lies.

I wish you would go on to Sonikmatters Logic forum. In there they dont allow any real criticism of Logic and that forum needs a proper balance because its so "To the company line". There are no bugs in Logic accoring to the majority in there.


Iomegamman

So before you let some guy whose livelihood depends on his ability to sell (a very good product IMHO) blow smoke up your ass do a little research on your product you might actually be suprised to find out that the real talent isn't written in code...

In all honesty I dont see Eric obviously sales pitching. He´s not sweet and sickly enough as I would expect a plugin developer to be on a forum. Seems to me Eric has has strong opinions and doesnt seem to be afraid to let them be known. How many other plugin designers are on this or any other forum? I would rather have a few around than none at all. If Eric was on a mission to sell, sell, sell he would be a much more neutral participant. Anyway, whats the difference between Eric and the guest moderators. Do you think these people didnt see an oppurtunity to sell a few more units. How much is a Manley Slam!. Even just selling 2 due to being on here is well worth the time and not to mention V good PR (Eva´s guest spot got me thinking about one). How many Distressors were sold when Dave Derr was a guest..............I´m not ragging on you just trying to point out that theres no difference imo and I would like to see Eric do a Guest spot.

So does anyone actually like Cubase apart from me?

[davemc]

Pro at the end of the day is something that gets your jobs done.
The software needs to have the features you need and stability.

Stable and Steinberg are not two things you put together so the un-pro thing. Just look at Nuendo 2.0 and the load of bugs.
If they want to be taken seriously as a pro software company, they should not release beta versions to get marketing kudos.
I have not used VST for over 4 years now and I moved to Pro Tools because there software was buggy and the new releases were beta. They still do not look to have learned.

I do think Pro Tools is over priced for what it does, although really I crash like once a week or so. When I used VST I prayed my recording would actually record...You cannot do this when you have paying clients...

[Ruphus]

Originally posted by Pricey
Have you tried Nuendo? Or RADAR? I haven't tried RADAR, but it's supposed to be amazing. Dedicated editing keys, no mouse.

I havn´t tried Nuendo. Only SX and thought Nuendo would be similar. My first software on a computer was Cubasis and as I hoped Cubase could be more stable I got me Cubase 3.7 as well. They gave me a hell of time over years. Nothing but crashes. And the layout was everything but intuitive.

I have to admit that since then I am bearing Steinberg a grudge. The company appears like the greediest and most crap selling one to me. Their existance seems to prove how devout customers must be. Otherwise they would had been sued to bankruptcy for selling dysfunctional stuff all the time.

What Radar is concerned I can easily believe that it is great to work with it, but I´m not sure if one can compare it to PT/Steinjerk/Logic/ Cakewalk or Samplitube. Finally one must be in a position to pay the unreal prices requested for Radar.

In all honesty I dont see Eric obviously sales pitching. He´s not sweet and sickly enough as I would expect a plugin developer to be on a forum. Seems to me Eric has has strong opinions and doesnt seem to be afraid to let them be known. How many other plugin designers are on this or any other forum? I would rather have a few around than none at all. If Eric was on a mission to sell, sell, sell he would be a much more neutral participant. Anyway, whats the difference between Eric and the guest moderators. Do you think these people didnt see an oppurtunity to sell a few more units. How much is a Manley Slam!. Even just selling 2 due to being on here is well worth the time and not to mention V good PR (Eva´s guest spot got me thinking about one). How many Distressors were sold when Dave Derr was a guest..............I´m not ragging on you just trying to point out that theres no difference imo and I would like to see Eric do a Guest spot.

Yes, well put!

Greets,

Ruphus

PS: Besides, anybody in Europe who would want to sell his Quadraverb2 to me?

[Ruphus]

For us in the PT forum there is no question anymore that the new PCs outperform MACs.
The former reason for MACs ( = stability ) is over meanwhile.
( No MAC/PC-war intented )

And buying the parts and putting it together has become an easy task these days. If you want to know about which parts work well and where to get them cheap have a look here

Cheers!

[Logan]

I'm of two minds on this, first I sometimes use PT at a studio I have used occasionaly, but it was a mix plus system not HD and it had those 888 converters and it sounded like ass. I realise the converters were the problem and I've not used a PTHD system nor mixplus with better converters. It was an OK sytem to work on for the limited tracking and mixing I did. For my first digital flyer at my own small studio, which was still tape based, I was using Cubase and moved to Nuendo when it first came out. Cubase was unreliable but Nuendo was rock solid. It became my DAW when I finally moved to full time digital. Nuendo lacked latency compensation on the groups and a trim on the inputs, but it had first class editing and never crashed in almost two years of sessions. Coupled with a UAD-1 card and waves plugs it gave me pretty good sounds, and I still mixed through an analogue console and added outboard for those things that plugs didn't provide or sounded better in hardware versions.
I was leary of Steinberg as my Cubase experience was not positive, but Nuendo seemed like a whole new direction for them, and in my limited experience was much more intiative than the PT system I had used, i was able to track mix and edit in Nuendo without ever cracking the manual.
All seemed good and my plan was to put in a Radar system which, again on limited experience, seemed to sound way better than PT and use Nuendo in conjunction with Radar.
Then came Nuendo 2 which added the delay compensation and trim and file transfere protocols that were lacking to make it a first class program. Unfortunately it had been Steinberged and nothing seems to work properly. To be fair and up front, I have gathered this info from users whom have upgraded to N2 and I have not upgraded ,so there is some remote possibility that all of their power users are crazy and it is indeed very stable, but I'm not putting another 5 bills into finding out that Nuendo 1.X was an anomily and Steinberg has returned to it's basic practice of releasing shit that will likely crash and trash your entire system.
I'm pretty distressed with all this and I'm starting to look at alternatives in Daws with Samp7 being the front runner ATM.
On the other issues of Mac vs PC and whether tp put in an HD system from the start, well for me there was no choice, i don't have that kind of coin and needed to build up a client base and spend money on mics and pres as well. I could put togeter a kick ass dual CPU PC that ran Nuendo, with RME converters for 24 tracks of input at 24/48 for about a quarter of what it cost to put in a mac with a very limited PT system. I've had guys bring me projects to mix that were done on PT systems with lots of TDM capacity and Apogee converters, because they weren't happy with the sound, so I think it's possible to work with Nuendo , or equivalent on a PC and attract clients, they are all tools, and it's how you use them that matters. Unfortunately, to use a cabinet making reference, if the handle keeps falling off your chisel, your dove tails may be sloppy, which seems to be the current Nuendo 2 situation. Take care Logan

[faeflora]

Originally posted by 2064


I wish you would go on to Sonikmatters Logic forum. In there they dont allow any real criticism of Logic and that forum needs a proper balance because its so "To the company line". There are no bugs in Logic accor

Amen. I do go to Sonik and gripe and try to help other users. I hate the attitude of Oscar and OINK at that place. If eMagic makes it then it is PERFECT.

I once posted a thread there about the whole clicking in the arrange window causing 1 second dropouts thing and they were like, "don't touch the keyboard then".

**** YOU i say.

[bassix]

Originally posted by bombguy
Also, if "top quality analog" meant anything, people would be lining up to use my fully-restored Studer A800 2-inch 8 track, or the 3M M56 2-inch 16 track. They aren't.

--Erik

That must be one of the most shortsighted remarks I have read anywhere in the last 10 years.

Top quality analog is top quality. Period. In both digital and analog fields there is a couple of good products and lots of crap you can purchase. Read some of Bob Katz's documents @ digido on the subject of digital vs analog before spamming silly remarks.

Extensive editing capabilities and portability have given digital recording its edge. Not quality.

Am not saying there is no quality digital gear. Just don't slag analog, lots of people still choose to use it for lots of different reasons. I'm quite sure Miles Davis and Frank Sinatra sound perfectly okay on analog tape.

To each his own.

[gsharp]

I can't remember where I first read this but it pretty much sums it up for me:


Q: Why did Steinberg call it Nuendo?

A: Because Nintendo was already taken.



Bombguy is right. If Nuendo were the better platform, it would be the standard. And don't give me the Mac OS/Windows thing. Among people who use these apps in mission critical environments, the Mac OS is the standard. And Logic is great for programming/whatever but I don't know anyone who actually engineers for money who tracks in Logic. And this whole native vs. TDM power thing baffles me. A TDM rig has all those DSP chips PLUS the native processing power. I don't see how a native rig can overpower or even equal a tdm rig with an equal CPU. How can x be greater than x+y? The only way that native will overtake dedicated dsp is when the native power exceeds the human need for more fx and track count. Which, this being Gearslutz, we all know will NEVER happen.

And from personal experience, 99.99% of the time when someone calls me with a PT question, its about how to USE it best, tips and tricks, etc... 99.99% of the time one of my poor Cubase using friends calls its a problem about getting the piece of shit to run in the first place. Just my experience and $.02. Flame away!!

[Ruphus]

Among people who use these apps in mission critical environments, the Mac OS is the standard.

This is true.
Until they have seen what a PC can do these days ( with audio! PT ) and not only that but while being even more stable.

Only stating the new facts. Check it out