Apple - PPC to Intel transition thread...

[Geert van den Berg]

With all the confusion around the switch that Apple is making to Intel here's a link to an Apple document that explains a bit what is going to happen.

http://developer.apple.com/macosx/ad...lbinaries.html

In short. Apple is trying to let all developers make universal binaries. Universal, so that means those apps will work both on PPC and Intel machines.

Some apps, coded in Xcode are relatively easy to turn into universal binaries, Cocoa apps are a bit harder and Carbon applications will have to be completely recoded in Xcode first.

Now I don't think this is going to be completely painless, but at least it's well planned.

I think Logic users can have most piece of mind, because it's an Apple application. Now it's the question what was used to code other DAW's like Digital Performer and Cubase/Nuendo?

I am curious if we will see the first Intel based products at the keynote held this Tuesday. Maybe new Mac-mini's?

[FFTT]

This FAQ over at Appleinsider answers a lot of basic questions too.
glad you stickied this!

http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=54941

[peter893]

Here is a bunch of links I put together.

http://logicproforums.com/forums/ind...showtopic=1044

Here was another thread/discussion that was started as well
http://logicproforums.com/forums/ind...showtopic=1033

Hope people find it useful


Peter

heres another with drivers an updated apps and plugs

http://logicproforums.com/forums/ind...showtopic=1552

[Geert van den Berg]

Good links guys, the reason I made this thread is because I see too much people in doubt about future purchases.

And when the switch was announced I wasn't a moderator here, offcourse the subject has been discussed, but not very in depth. Gearslutz needs a thread like this.

[rmx16]

Here's another link from the Macrumors forum:

http://guides.macrumors.com/PowerPC_to_Intel_Transition

I guess will have to wait till tomorrow

Peace

[6strings]

Another basic F.A.Q. regarding the transition to come...

http://www.macworld.com/2005/06/feat...lfaq/index.php

[BrianT]

Waiting for 3rd party plugins, especially VSTi, to get ported is going to be the kicker. It will be a while before Intel Macs get access to the full range of plugins, IMO.

Don't be thinking in terms of months.

[FFTT]

It would be important to find out how soon the major DAW's will be ported over to
Mac OS X 10.4.4 released TODAY.

WOW! New MBP's 4 times faster than a 1.67 PB!

And a new dual core iMac 20" 2.0 with DVI out, supporting another 23" display.

I WANT MY MBP!

[T_R_S]

Hard drives and RAM are not 4 to 5 times faster. And compared to a G5 it's not 4-5 times faster.Those Benchmarks are a Powerbook G4 which is slow slow slow, I know I own one. Compared to a G5 it's a lot less and compared to a dual G5 or a dual core G5, it's even less.
The transistion for all the audio software and PI etc is going to take a year. I took me over a year to get out of OS 9. Plus some of my stuff never made it to OS X.
I wonder what audio software won't make it the MacTel

[FFTT]

The dual processor, dual core and Quad G5's are still the best way to go if you
must buy a new workstation.

The MBP fills the need for a faster laptop, but I would personally not spend that kind of money for any laptop unless I already had a primary workstation tower.

Theses new Yonah based machines are just the very beginning of what will be available
over the next 24 months.

Like all Rev " A" models, these new machines will be rapidly leapfrogged by competition
in the market.

The Yonah based machines may be fine for office, graphics and web design, but
audio and video Pros are better off waiting until 3rd quarter 2006 if at all possible.

[TonyBelmont]

Here's a positive sign from Native Instruments....

News:
SUPPORT FOR INTEL-BASED MAC SYSTEMS

NI compatibility with the new Intel Dual Core Engine imminent

Native Instruments products will soon be compatible with the latest generation of Apple™ Macintosh computers, which are now based on the Intel™ Dual Core Engine. Native Instruments is already working on enabling products for use with the new processor architecture of the Intel-based Mac systems.
The first compatible NI products are scheduled to be released in the 2nd quarter of 2006.

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/inde...ftu=ed656b46b7

I hope they get everything right, because I would be lost without some of their plugs....

[TonyBelmont]

Also, I'm getting one of those new MBP's ASAP!!!

[Johnny B]

I'm wondering how long before you'll see that "10-fold increase in performance" that the Intel CEO bragged about. Not even AMD can promise that at this time.

[FFTT]

I'm sure Core Wars competition will be fierce over the next 2-3 years, so Intel's prediction could come true in the not too distant future.

If operating systems are optimized to take advantage of Quad Core and Octa Core
systems, it's easy to see how a ten fold performance increase over last years specs
could be possible.
All that with far better energy usage as well, so laptop battery life is supposed to be
another goal with minimum 8 hours in the near future and much lower power demands
for enterprise servers and such.

[FFTT]

Apple posted these scheduled updates to cover users looking at new Intel models.

http://www.apple.com/r/store/universal/

Universal applications are designed to run flawlessly on both Intel- and PowerPC-based Mac computers. Universal versions of Final Cut Studio, Logic Pro, Logic Express, and Aperture will be available by March 31, 2006.

If you own a current PowerPC version of one of these products, you're eligible for a low-cost "crossgrade" to the Universal version when it becomes available:

These upgrades cover current PPC versions, but keep in mind that Apple is scheduled for major Pro app updates at NAB in April including Final Cut 6 and Extreme.

I have no clue if Apple has anything exciting planned for NAMM

[kenn.michael]

I know one plug developer was waiting until 'stable AU hosts' are available for OSX Intel... Well I know of two shipping now...

AULab (Apple's AU host part of their developer tools)
GarageBand 3 (Which is major parts of Logic's engine)

The free synth Crystal has already been ported to Universal Binary and is available as is most of Destroy FX's plugins.

[risinsun]

I have waiting for the new generation of Powerbook almost a year,
and gonna order my new MacBook Pro...

But after I saw this....from Propellerhead Website:

"Reason will continue to run in Rosetta, but the performance loss is similar to running Reason on a G3.

ReCycle runs fine in Rosetta, with no measurable performance issues.
ReWire works, as long as all applications in the session are PowerPC-based.

No Universal Binary versions of our software are announced as of now. However, rest assured, Propellerhead Software is still fully committed to the Mac OS platform."



Sigh....... still not the right time to buy unless those software are fully support Intel-Mac

[FFTT]

Some developers will delay as long as they can, but eventually they will be forced
to get their act together.

I'm sure it will take Digi a while to release their universal binary versions as well.

I don't see this as a reason to buy old tech unless you absolutely must put together a working system immediately.

[Johnny B]

Originally Posted by FFTT

I'm sure Core Wars competition will be fierce over the next 2-3 years, so Intel's prediction [of a ten-fold increase in performance] could come true in the not too distant future.

If operating systems are optimized to take advantage of Quad Core and Octa Core
systems, it's easy to see how a ten fold performance increase over last years specs
could be possible.

Right. Intel has some technology that was developed by a couple of engineers of Asian decent which was developed by them while at the University of California at Berkeley. I understand that rather than take a standard route of adaption and development, Intel simply made these brilliant young engineers an "offer they could not refuse" and hired them outright to work exclusively for Intel. Although some of the underlying chip tech they developed at UC Berkeley is accessible to others, companies such as AMD have not been able to figure it out as of yet. The upshot is that Intel can get something like 1000 transistors in the same real estate that others can only get one.

And as this new tech gets improved we will continue to see the same old cycle...

New tech obsoletes old tech, which is replaced by still newer tech, which replaces and obsoletes older tech, and so on, ad infinitum. As an observation, this cycle of things rapidily becoming obsolete in electronics is far different from other manufacturing sectors such as autos. With autos, the cycle of things going obsolete is often nothing more than visual, style, or fashion changes (otherwise there would be carbon-fiber cars that are as structurally strong as Indy race cars (think: surviving 200 mile-per-hour crashes) and which resulted in far better gas milage) but Detroit, for the most part, cranks out the same old underlying technology, or worse. With electronics, often the new tech really is better. Computers are a great example of how the cycle of things quickly going obsolete really does benefit most of us over the long term.

Computers always seems to deliver us more horsepower, more speed, and more perfomance...all for the same or less money.

Now if digital could only get those AD/DA bit-depths higher and get the sample rates robust enough to capture 104.5 kHz, then you might see the AD/DA chips that deliver little or no latency, truncation, rounding errors, and other problems while also delivering an increase in digital sound quality.

If the "digital obsolete cycle" leads to better sound quality, I'm all for it since most of the world loves good-sounding music and does not like "less quality" in the sound.

High quality digital pics are great but pics would take the back bench.

As far as I'm concerned, "Sound Quality" ought to be digital electronic's number one priority.

And that means "new" and "better" AD/DA chips. It also means "new" and "better" digital formats too.

[TonyBelmont]

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?intelmac_us

They aren't going to have Battery until the end of Q3 2006....

[FFTT]

That could be because the 64 bit Intel dual cores won't be out till 3rd quarter 2006.

This also illustrates why many users have opted for G5 dual core towers to hold them
over for the next few years.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by FFTT

That could be because the 64 bit Intel dual cores won't be out till 3rd quarter 2006.

This also illustrates why many users have opted for G5 dual core towers to hold them
over for the next few years.

It's one of the last NI plugs to be ported...

[FFTT]

While it's great to see this transition rolling along, it's still a really rough time to buy new computer gear.

The basic users will be fine, but pro users will just have to be patient and get by with what they have a while longer.

I still like PPC and was really hoping that we would see an IBM Power5 based dual core
processor by 2007.

Right now I feel like one of the last owners of a pre '68 muscle car watching the industry replace that raw horsepower with 2 smaller rice burners under the hood.

So following that analogy, I think of Rosetta with all the joy of the 1st performance choking EPA cars released in '73

[Johnny B]

Right. But with Intel's new tech, we may soon get high-performance racing machines that are EPA fuel efficient, so fast and efficient, that you can cram them into a laptop and win the Indy 500.

All with power to spare.

Now if they get the road to be smoother, as in, "better formats," and eliminate all the time-consuming road blocks (latency, truncation, rounding errors, time smear, etc.) and get better sound quality out of the AD/DA chips, then Apple could be the big "Sound Quality Race" winner for the next decade.

Fuel efficient 64-bit racing engines all ganged together is a good start.

[FFTT]

No doubt the potential for advancement is remarkable, but this transition period has a lot of people jumping through hoops to get with the program.

I'm wondering how long it will take companies like Digidesign to release their universal binary updates.
I just checked on their web site and this is what they have posted.

Compatibility Alert — New Apple Intel Models

Pro Tools (HD, LE and M-Powered) is not currently compatible with the new Apple iMac and MacBook Pro computers with Intel Core Duo processors
Pro Tools is not a universal binary
Digidesign currently does not have a release date for the Pro Tools update that will be needed for compatibility with these Apple Intel based computers

Seriously WTF!

As developer partners, Digi knew they would have to update shortly after releasing
version 7, so what's going on?

[Geert van den Berg]

I am sure Digidesign will have Universal Binaries around June. Since there are no new PowerMac's it's likely they'll wait till those machines arrive, you can't run HD on an Imac anyway.

On the Unicornation/MOTU forum I read that Digital Performer will be an universal binary from the second quarter of 2006. The source is the site administrator, so it's reliable.

Logic Audio will be the first audio app next month.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1483

I also saw that they now have all the third party universal apps listed on the Apple site, unfortunately not much audio apps yet.

http://guide.apple.com/action.lasso?...rds=20&-search

Come to think of it, the transition to make OS X run on Intel wasn't so difficult for Apple, converting all the audio units will probably also not be so hard. I even wonder if some of the simpeler AU plugs won't just work already.

[Johnny B]

Digi slow to adapt to new tech? Say "It ain't so, Joe." Say, "It ain't so."

I remember Digi dragged its feet for five bloody years before it finally got around to implementing 24/192. It kept making false promises to have it out in 3 to 6 months, but it took it five years to actually "do it". Slow? Hell no, five bloody years for Digi to get with the new tech is not slow.

I would not be surprised to see that Digi was the very last corporation on the planet to adopt any new tech.

Many people do not say "Slow Fools" without good reason.

[Geert van den Berg]

So what Johnny?

The only ones complaining are the ones who aren't running any PT HD systems themselves, why is that?

[Geert van den Berg]

Steinberg will also have universal binaries soon...

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAM...evelpment.html

[Johnny B]

Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg

The only ones complaining are the ones who aren't running any PT HD systems themselves, why is that?

I would be careful when making such a over-generalisation as the above without more evidence. The evidence seems abundant that both Pro Fools users and many other users of digital gear have been complaining about the lack of great sound quality in digital for many years.

If it takes new and better tech, new more powerful formats, faster and smoother AD/DA chips to improve digital sound quality, then I'm all in favor of the new tech.

People may want to pull out some analogue tapes and take a listen just for a fun comparison.

Cheers.