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#121
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V PETERO View Post
In my humble opinion, the Neve generate overbearing amounts of hiss.
I really set the hiss behavior so it reproduces the measured console behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton View Post
That's what the Gates & Mute Automation on the 4000E were for... removing the hiss. So you'll have to do the same ITB.
This is something that we planned to do, i.e. to feature the option to mute automatically channels which does not have any audio passing through it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by V PETERO View Post
Personally I would do away with it completely if it does not affect the other desirable elements of the plug.
The issue is that it does !! Our findings is that the hiss behavior IS part of each console sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sptz View Post
But it's part of it, I hate those 100% digital silences, I also hate silences with very noticeable hiss, but overall it adds character and I mix very hard, as in, I;m very extremist in compression etc, mainly outboard which goes through my console which increases even more noise floor and I don't hear any noticeable or "bad" noise floor in my mix with VCC, so I think you people are being EXTREMELY nitpicking.
I personally love a little barely noticeable hiss. I realized a few months ago, thanks to this work on the VCC algorithms, that I really love the hiss that is present on some records, and I feel it's too clean and that the sound is a little "deaf" when there is no hiss at all.
That being said, I guess the hiss was there because of tape and console processing of the record. Still the VCC's hiss interact in a very particular way, and it's different for each console.


Quote:
Originally Posted by V PETERO View Post
I love emulations, however I feel gearslutz is so obsessed with perfect emulation that companies emulate even the negatives of the analog domain.
we all know the analog domain had some limitation one being signal to noise ratio and so....on and so...on.
would we go and start emulating those limitation!.........No
IMHO it's not a limitation, it's part of the sound. Also I don't think that the hiss is negative in most cases.
BUT you also have to think about the future calibration settings which should fix the possible hiss issues. Indeed if your tracks are very quiet and that you have to boost the mix buss, it brings up the hiss, exactly like in a real console. With a real console, you have only one choice: you have to raise the input gain of each track.

With the VCC, you will have 2 options: you will be able to raise the input gain OR you will be able to lower the calibration level of the VCCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agzilla View Post
I cast my vote FIRMLY in favor of an option to get rid of the hiss or just ditch it altogether.. hiss was ALWAYS the enemy in the analogue domain for us.. harmonics good..hiss bad..
Zz.
Well.. Harmonics was also the enemy, and so limited headroom. I hope that someone will not ask us "ho could you remove all the harmonic distortion from the VCC ? And also could we get an option to bypass the crosstalk ?"
This would obviously not make sense to me because it would completely denature the VCC purpose, which is emulating all the characteritics of a console's summing buss, but also to force you a little to modify your workflow like with a real console.

ANYWAY, if the calibration settings are not sufficient for some users, for sure we will consider some specific hiss settings !



Quote:
Originally Posted by Agzilla View Post
Should we be able to have some channels set to oversample and some not? Is it meant to be a universal setting or preference accross ALL instances of the plugin
For the moment the oversampling option is pretty basic. The purpose of the future settings will be more to set them differently for real time processing and offline rendering.
But we can also feature different settings for the groups, not necessarily for the first version but in an update.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dollarosa View Post
I was wondering if anyone would be so kind and explain the grouping of the plugs.
The grouping system writings will be more obvious in the upcoming new beta, and you can take a look at the manual, or to this article:
VCC grouping feature - Virtual Console Collection - Knowledgebase - Slate Digital Helpdesk
or this post :
Slate Digital VIRTUAL CONSOLE COLLECTION beta 1



Quote:
Originally Posted by copperx View Post
I think you ought to credit the Nebula guys, for the idea was ripped off of them. I have a lot of respect for Fabrice, but for the Slate VCC they are just using lower quality settings (mega-short kernels) in order to not hobble the CPU.
Where did you get this information exactly ? O__o
Well I guess this is something usual, as soon as there is a new notion (same thing a few years ago with impulse responses, a lot of people did not really get it at first), it remains a bit unclear for a while. We do not use a "kernel", even if the kernel notion seems pretty blurred right now. We did not use "lower quality settings", and there was no compromise in the VCC algorithm making "in order to not hobble the CPU".

Well, in fact the only compromise I did was the huge amount of time I accepted to spent adjusting the algorithms by hand, and thus the delay that we had to release the VCCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendingM View Post
I see it less of a concern in "losing marketshare" and more of setting the record straight. As copperx mentioned, in a technical sense, this is not a breakthrough; reflecting in a sense a more stripped down version of Nebula - sort of like the Aquafx versions of Nebulareverb itself i.e implementing shorter distortion kernels for example.
Please feel free to (re)read these posts :
"To build the VCC algorithms, we used three approaches at the same time: we studied schematics, analyzed the real consoles and at last validated the algorithms by ear on a real project, comparing the same project processed with the real consoles.

This whole process was not obvious at start though. Because I wanted algorithms which reproduce the exact behavior of a console, without taking 50% of your CPU for a single plugin instance, using one approach only could not work. I've been discussing and studying full component models, dynamic analyzing, and standard dynamic EQ/saturation approaches, and none of them was really satisfying, and each one had at least a big drawback.

"That's what I always point out with convolution, FFT or even linear phase filtering, usually the bass range is not very precise, even at the expense of a huge processing delay or to much CPU consumption.

I discovered that the bass range precision was really crucial in an analogue console behavior reproduction (I mean, far more important than what I expected), and I don't think that this precise behavior can be accurately reproduced in another way than a hand and ear adjusted algorithm.
However, the needed precision is not the same for each console, so I guess that the efficiency of a particular type of algorithm is highly linked to the targeted console emulation.
"

"The question was more focused on what kind of technique is used in the VCC, like a systematic analysis method, which, IMHO, has trade offs that you can't really get rid of (which are pretty much of the same kind that the ones you get for convolution or FFT, i.e. precision vs computation efficiency); versus a custom made algorithm which is specifically adapted for each particular case, and thus which has to be different for each model."

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
we feature harmonic distortion and frequency response of original gear sampled at different levels of gain (it depends on who sampled it). So even harmonic response is dynamic. Our kernels are pretty long, not just few samples (for nebula it's the standard around 50 to 200 millisecond for a preamp, so 20000 samples and even 300-500 milliseconds for an equalizer, the engine allows even greater kernels till 20 seconds, so around 1 million of samples, depending on the frequency rate). I think they are the longest kernerls/irs in the market, but I could be wrong here. We feature till 10 harmonics, each one follows the same rules explained above.
Frequency rate is the weakest point, and it ranges between 0.50 milliseconds to 200 milliseconds. It means that other techniques could provide a better/faster response (read: other developers).
[...]
We are using a force brute approach SO it's cpu intensive.



Fabrice
#122
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #122
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Really, the Nebula fanatics need to have some manners.
#123
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel View Post
I really set the hiss behavior so it reproduces the measured console behavior.


This is something that we planned to do, i.e. to feature the option to mute automatically channels which does not have any audio passing through it.


The issue is that it does !! Our findings is that the hiss behavior IS part of each console sound.


I personally love a little barely noticeable hiss. I realized a few months ago, thanks to this work on the VCC algorithms, that I really love the hiss that is present on some records, and I feel it's too clean and that the sound is a little "deaf" when there is no hiss at all.
That being said, I guess the hiss was there because of tape and console processing of the record. Still the VCC's hiss interact in a very particular way, and it's different for each console.



IMHO it's not a limitation, it's part of the sound. Also I don't think that the hiss is negative in most cases.
BUT you also have to think about the future calibration settings which should fix the possible hiss issues. Indeed if your tracks are very quiet and that you have to boost the mix buss, it brings up the hiss, exactly like in a real console. With a real console, you have only one choice: you have to raise the input gain of each track.

With the VCC, you will have 2 options: you will be able to raise the input gain OR you will be able to lower the calibration level of the VCCs.



Well.. Harmonics was also the enemy, and so limited headroom. I hope that someone will not ask us "ho could you remove all the harmonic distortion from the VCC ? And also could we get an option to bypass the crosstalk ?"
This would obviously not make sense to me because it would completely denature the VCC purpose, which is emulating all the characteritics of a console's summing buss, but also to force you a little to modify your workflow like with a real console.

ANYWAY, if the calibration settings are not sufficient for some users, for sure we will consider some specific hiss settings !




For the moment the oversampling option is pretty basic. The purpose of the future settings will be more to set them differently for real time processing and offline rendering.
But we can also feature different settings for the groups, not necessarily for the first version but in an update.



The grouping system writings will be more obvious in the upcoming new beta, and you can take a look at the manual, or to this article:
VCC grouping feature - Virtual Console Collection - Knowledgebase - Slate Digital Helpdesk
or this post :
Slate Digital VIRTUAL CONSOLE COLLECTION beta 1




Where did you get this information exactly ? O__o
Well I guess this is something usual, as soon as there is a new notion (same thing a few years ago with impulse responses, a lot of people did not really get it at first), it remains a bit unclear for a while. We do not use a "kernel", even if the kernel notion seems pretty blurred right now. We did not use "lower quality settings", and there was no compromise in the VCC algorithm making "in order to not hobble the CPU".

Well, in fact the only compromise I did was the huge amount of time I accepted to spent adjusting the algorithms by hand, and thus the delay that we had to release the VCCs.




Please feel free to (re)read these posts :
"To build the VCC algorithms, we used three approaches at the same time: we studied schematics, analyzed the real consoles and at last validated the algorithms by ear on a real project, comparing the same project processed with the real consoles.

This whole process was not obvious at start though. Because I wanted algorithms which reproduce the exact behavior of a console, without taking 50% of your CPU for a single plugin instance, using one approach only could not work. I've been discussing and studying full component models, dynamic analyzing, and standard dynamic EQ/saturation approaches, and none of them was really satisfying, and each one had at least a big drawback.
"That's what I always point out with convolution, FFT or even linear phase filtering, usually the bass range is not very precise, even at the expense of a huge processing delay or to much CPU consumption.

I discovered that the bass range precision was really crucial in an analogue console behavior reproduction (I mean, far more important than what I expected), and I don't think that this precise behavior can be accurately reproduced in another way than a hand and ear adjusted algorithm.
However, the needed precision is not the same for each console, so I guess that the efficiency of a particular type of algorithm is highly linked to the targeted console emulation. "

"The question was more focused on what kind of technique is used in the VCC, like a systematic analysis method, which, IMHO, has trade offs that you can't really get rid of (which are pretty much of the same kind that the ones you get for convolution or FFT, i.e. precision vs computation efficiency); versus a custom made algorithm which is specifically adapted for each particular case, and thus which has to be different for each model."





Fabrice
Hi fabrice, the differences in approach is understood. I'm merely comparing the results of each approach in the realism and variables they can bring to the table (as in algo vs kernel approach). The variables that by virtue of being algo code, that are let's say not as comprehensive as with the kernel approach are what yield the forgiving nature on the cpu of one implementation versus the other is what the focus was in that discussion. And on the other side of this, I think it's just crazy to say that nebula is not as analog as such and such plugin.
#124
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #124
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hmmm...

well at least no-one's mentioned nulling yet
#125
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #125
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So much about this post being about a discussion of the VCC in-use.

It's annoying to have to "jump" through replies by people who are playing "armchair quarterback" here. Go and make your own effects if you are that unhappy with this one, leave those of us who want to learn more about the effect alone; I personally don't care about what you think with regards to the authenticity, comparisons to other effects, etc.

That said: I personally am not bothered by the hiss, and if a bypass switch is in the works, I'm all for it as long as the other kinks are hammered out first.

Super stable on my system, btw (WinXP Pro SP3, Q6600, PTLE)

EDIT: I've heard of Nebula, I'm not interested in it. If I ever do become interested, I'll check for you guys. To be perfectly frank though, "crashing" another product's post is tasteless and not a good marketing idea.
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#126
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #126
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#127
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #127
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Thanks for all the hard work Fabrice!!!
#128
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #128
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Awesome Fabrice!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Franco View Post
So much about this post being about a discussion of the VCC in-use.
Indeed... this reminds me all too much of the Mac vs PC threads. If the topic specifically says "VCC" why are people bringing up different products?

If you want to discuss alternative products and comparisons use this thread:

ITB Console Emulation comparison thread....
#129
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #129
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Will have to download and test the demo soon.
#130
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #130
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I've downloaded the demo and put it to some use. I can say I really like it.
I really appreciate the grouping feature. Although I find it a bit clumsy, opening a second gui plug to do it and all.

And no I'm not sure how it might be done otherwise.

Great work Slate.
Probably get a TEC award for this plug.

#131
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #131
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Subtle? Placebo?

Subtle? Barely noticeable? Placebo effect? Have people actually been using these words to describe VCC over the past few days?

You gotta be kidding.

There's nothing subtle about this plug. You would have to have a ten-year accumulation of wax in your ears or broken-down Behringer monitors to not hear what VCC imparts. The Neve emulation is exuding so much warm gooey goodness from my speakers that, for a few hours this afternoon, I almost forgot about the meagerness of my humble home studio.

Mr. Slate and Mr. Gabriel: I am not sure I can forgive you yet for making us wait all these long agonizing months, but I can certainly tell you that the wait was worth it. Job well done.
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#132
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blim View Post
Subtle? Barely noticeable? Placebo effect? Have people actually been using these words to describe VCC over the past few days?

You gotta be kidding.

There's nothing subtle about this plug. You would have to have a ten-year accumulation of wax in your ears or broken-down Behringer monitors to not hear what VCC imparts. The Neve emulation is exuding so much warm gooey goodness from my speakers that, for a few hours this afternoon, I almost forgot about the meagerness of my humble home studio.

Mr. Slate and Mr. Gabriel: I am not sure I can forgive you yet for making us wait all these long agonizing months, but I can certainly tell you that the wait was worth it. Job well done.
I know right? The artist and their producer must be victim to the Placebo affect too, as I pull jaws up off the floor. But hey, my room is solid +/-1db from flat, and I have some nice Adam A7's and sub. Pretty apparent in the low end and silky highs. Just saved me a summing box purchase. Downloading the updated beta now. Cheers.
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#133
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
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Nice one Fabrice..
Thanx for the info, so oversampling is just on or off across all instances of plugin regardless of group for now... just as well it still sounds really good without it engaged on channels just on the mixbuss..

Thanx for taking time to take our suggestions, requests and offer us answers whilst obviously still working really hard, hope your enjoying the excitement around all your effort..

Respect to you.

Zz.
#134
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #134
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VCC I can hear, even with my 55 year-old earbones.

Now the whole MIO-Character summing thing, well that's another story. I know a lot of people swear by it, but I just don't get it. I tried mixing a few projects that way and decided it wasn't worth the trouble (for me anyway). Now that to me was subtle-city.....

Sorry, donning my off-topic flame suit....stike
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#135
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #135
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I'll come out a little stronger cause I don't give a damn..

Personally, I really could not care less how "authentic" Nebula is suppose to be.. it's unusable for a lot of people..

...but.....THAT"S FOR ANOTHER THREAD ISN'T IT??????????

It's real bush-league for you guys to come into this thread once again "evangelizing" your beloved " King of the almighty Kernel" technology.. fuuck
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#136
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy D View Post
VCC I can hear, even with my 55 year-old earbones.

Now the whole MIO-Character summing thing, well that's another story. I know a lot of people swear by it, but I just don't get it. I tried mixing a few projects that way and decided it wasn't worth the trouble (for me anyway). Now that to me was subtle-city.....

Sorry, donning my off-topic flame suit....stike
Oh dear, did you real have to say that? :-)
#137
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #137
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Downloaded the VCC win update and it says it's damaged, unable to unzip... Just to be sure I tried downloading 2 more times and the same thing...
#138
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattski View Post
Downloaded the VCC win update and it says it's damaged, unable to unzip... Just to be sure I tried downloading 2 more times and the same thing...
It's still being uploaded, you're catching it in the middle of that so you get an incomplete file!
#139
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendingM View Post
Well I don't want to compare tape programs with console programs, obviously very different things. Not to mention, everybody uses these things differently so I can't verify or villify your use of them. As far as comparing console programs, I can't really agree nor say it's a matter of taste. From what was analyzed and/or observed with vcc, it's as I said, doing a fraction of what Nebula does. I can't possibly see why a person would say that nebula doesn't sound analog while vcc does. If one thinks vcc sounds better may be they like that particular sound, that's fine. The only matter of subjectivity here is the usability and preference for type of sound. All else that's technically quantifiable here puts Nebula ahead. Nobody can argue the subjectivity of usability; I'm definitely not doing that. Really if you want to talk placebo...well.....
I didn't say VCC sounds more analog. Go back and read what I said. I said it sounded "better". "Analog" is a total ephemeral concept.
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30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
I didn't say VCC sounds more analog. Go back and read what I said. I said it sounded "better". "Analog" is a total ephemeral concept.
This just reminded me something that I was thinking about earlier. Steven Slate was saying that he chose particular console models that he liked, with distinct sounds, maintenance records, etc. I'm wondering if the Nebula guys are simply taking their console models as the reference, while it seems to me that there can virtually be as many as there are consoles. It's analog, so nothing is a perfect duplicate, even something as fundamental as the power system can play roles here, no?

As you say, all that matters is if it sounds good. To me, VCC does, but then again I've only mixed one album on an analog desk and I was just the artist then, I didn't touch many buttons.
#141
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbevin View Post
It's still being uploaded, you're catching it in the middle of that so you get an incomplete file!
Thanks man... I'll wait another hour or so to try again.
#142
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbevin View Post
Oh dear, did you real have to say that? :-)
I know, I know......BAD TOMMY!

Seriously, maybe you could help me see the light on that.....I tried....really I did...
#143
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
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i really like the hiss and think it should stay, it adds to the flavor in a good way, and makes the sound feel like it's "hitting air" which is good in my opinion and exactly what we want, our sounds zipping around cables and circuts.

Fabrice you are changing the plug in world for the better and i look very forward to anything else you develop, great work!
#144
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
I didn't say VCC sounds more analog. Go back and read what I said. I said it sounded "better". "Analog" is a total ephemeral concept.
Our point of reference is analog consoles. It's not too ephemeral here. "Better" on the other hand? Better than what? If you say better than Nebula, that's your preference. You like its particular sound. What each approach offers as far as the variables it encompasses is the only objective thing that can be quantified. That's the only point I've been driving the entire time, not what's "better".
#145
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekn0 View Post
i really like the hiss and think it should stay, it adds to the flavor in a good way, and makes the sound feel like it's "hitting air" which is good in my opinion and exactly what we want, our sounds zipping around cables and circuts.

Fabrice you are changing the plug in world for the better and i look very forward to anything else you develop, great work!
Thanks !
Well for me that would be a little sad that people can completely remove the hiss of the VCC (apart an "auto gate" feature when there is no audio to process), because I figure out how it is important and also how it reacts on a real console.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agzilla View Post
Nice one Fabrice..
Thanx for the info, so oversampling is just on or off across all instances of plugin regardless of group for now... just as well it still sounds really good without it engaged on channels just on the mixbuss..

Thanx for taking time to take our suggestions, requests and offer us answers whilst obviously still working really hard, hope your enjoying the excitement around all your effort..

Respect to you.

Zz.
You're welcome, that's my pleasure ! Indeed we are really enjoying the feedback. And I can't wait to release all the remaining features and to get the final release !

As it was asked for the FG-X, we'll feature more and more advanced oversampling options in all our plugins with time.



Fabrice
#146
30th September 2010
Old 30th September 2010
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Fabrice, I do think that the auto gate feature will be the best option.
#147
30th September 2010
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Please there is somebody can explain the relationship between the controls in the extra window (right) and the previous one?

So can you use a type of console in the first window and then another in the second one??

also confuse the Group and process of and on.
#148
1st October 2010
Old 1st October 2010
  #148
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Just tried the latest version on a track & has considerable distortion when using sat on the T console.
Distorts on both real time & renders.
Sat works fine on all other consoles & mixbuss, but on T there's a definite problem.
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#149
1st October 2010
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Question VCC : why is no a Multi Mono Master Buss?

Why the master bus is not Multi mono????

is not that that is the best way??



and what would be the difference in sound between inserting a stereo Master Bus and a Stereo Channel Bus at the Master bus of my mix.??
#150
1st October 2010
Old 1st October 2010
  #150
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Fabrice Gabriel's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 317

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Quote:
Originally Posted by djanthonyw View Post
Fabrice, I do think that the auto gate feature will be the best option.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 View Post
Please there is somebody can explain the relationship between the controls in the extra window (right) and the previous one?
So can you use a type of console in the first window and then another in the second one??
also confuse the Group and process of and on.
Please read the instruction about the grouping here :
VCC grouping feature - Virtual Console Collection - Knowledgebase - Slate Digital Helpdesk


Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 View Post
and what would be the difference in sound between inserting a stereo Master Bus and a Stereo Channel Bus at the Master bus of my mix.??
The Mix Buss plugin emulates the mix buss part of the console, while the Channel plugin emulates the channel.. So it's not the same thing, one of the major differences being crosstalk for the Mix Buss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by telluride View Post
Just tried the latest version on a track & has considerable distortion when using sat on the T console.
Distorts on both real time & renders.
Sat works fine on all other consoles & mixbuss, but on T there's a definite problem.
No distortion problem here with the last version... Please could you send a support ticket with a detailed description of the issue ? Thanks !

Slate Digital Helpdesk



Fabrice
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