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#1171
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1171
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This might have already been discussed, but has anyone else been noticing some disturbing aspects about the VCC sound? I hear this both on individual channels, and the mix bus: it's a kind of smeary high frequency distortion. I also feel like the general clarity and realism of my sound gets lost. It's not that I lose high end (which I perceive on a lot of "analog modeling" plugins) but that the overall sound is cloudy, the detail gets lost. I have found the VCC most useful when trying to get a mix together very quickly, it does do a very cool "glue" kind of thing. I've also liked it on toms, it gives them more impact somehow. But these other aspects make me feel queasy (literally) when I listen.
#1172
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1172
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i have noticed the cloudyness but not the lost of detail.For me the cloudyness is like a warmth sound.I am still very new to the VCC
#1173
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1daly View Post
This might have already been discussed, but has anyone else been noticing some disturbing aspects about the VCC sound? I hear this both on individual channels, and the mix bus: it's a kind of smeary high frequency distortion. I also feel like the general clarity and realism of my sound gets lost. It's not that I lose high end (which I perceive on a lot of "analog modeling" plugins) but that the overall sound is cloudy, the detail gets lost. I have found the VCC most useful when trying to get a mix together very quickly, it does do a very cool "glue" kind of thing. I've also liked it on toms, it gives them more impact somehow. But these other aspects make me feel queasy (literally) when I listen.

You loose clarity ? This is because you put vcc after the mix !! if you mix in VCC from start ....you will not loose anything .....but gain some !!
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#1174
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
You loose clarity ? This is because you put vcc after the mix !! if you mix in VCC from start ....you will not loose anything .....but gain some !!
TRUE!!!
#1175
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
You loose clarity ? This is because you put vcc after the mix !! if you mix in VCC from start ....you will not loose anything .....but gain some !!
not sure what difference this makes but you can solo every track and see what the VCC is doing
#1176
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1176
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I have used the VCC on 3 mixes so far. The first two were fine but the 3rd one, which was more ambient, I found the hiss to be intolerable, so much so that, on mastering, I had to implement a noise reduction plugin to make it coherent.

After going back to the Cubase session and turning up the volume I found that removing the VCC plugins made the session sound better. Sorry to report that but that's how my ears perceived it.

I then set the VCC to Hiss Auto Mute, which was an improvement, but I still had to implement some noise reduction at the mastering stage before this protect became plausible.

I'm not saying this plugin isn't great. But unwanted noise is the enemy, isn't it?
#1177
13th June 2012
Old 13th June 2012
  #1177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dark blue man View Post
I have used the VCC on 3 mixes so far. The first two were fine but the 3rd one, which was more ambient, I found the hiss to be intolerable, so much so that, on mastering, I had to implement a noise reduction plugin to make it coherent.

After going back to the Cubase session and turning up the volume I found that removing the VCC plugins made the session sound better. Sorry to report that but that's how my ears perceived it.

I then set the VCC to Hiss Auto Mute, which was an improvement, but I still had to implement some noise reduction at the mastering stage before this protect became plausible.

I'm not saying this plugin isn't great. But unwanted noise is the enemy, isn't it?
I think a lot of people get used to the sterility of the "perfect" digital sound blank backdrop, but in reality a little noise is your friend if you want glue - I think of hiss like sitting by the sea and hearing the waves lap up - there has to a damn lot of wind before I take issue with it.

It seems that a lot of people like the extreme clarity of the daw mix, in which case, analog emulations probably aren't for you - there is no right or wrong, only your own taste.

Do what YOU hear as sounding the best - maybe VCC is not for your mixes (I do remember Fabrice mentioning at one point that the hiss is integral to the effect, so it MUST be there for VCC to do its thing).
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#1178
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyman View Post
not sure what difference this makes but you can solo every track and see what the VCC is doing
you don't understand what i'm saying

I'm saying don't mix the track and then insert the plugins (VCC)

Insert the plugin just after gain staging and then start your mixing session .....

For the hiss ....check , guyz, your amount of compression /limiting also ...
#1179
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1daly View Post
This might have already been discussed, but has anyone else been noticing some disturbing aspects about the VCC sound? I hear this both on individual channels, and the mix bus: it's a kind of smeary high frequency distortion. I also feel like the general clarity and realism of my sound gets lost. It's not that I lose high end (which I perceive on a lot of "analog modeling" plugins) but that the overall sound is cloudy, the detail gets lost. I have found the VCC most useful when trying to get a mix together very quickly, it does do a very cool "glue" kind of thing. I've also liked it on toms, it gives them more impact somehow. But these other aspects make me feel queasy (literally) when I listen.
This is the opposite of my experience. My mixes actually have better separation and stereo width, therefore gain clarity. I can see the Neve emu maybe but dang!

It's crazy how opinions differ. I wonder how many opinions are heard with properly treated listening spaces and converters, etc.?

These variables would create wildly unscientific varying opinions that could be detrimental to would-be buyers.
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#1180
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1180
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I think it's more a methodoly issue .....people work in differents ways ....so the results may differt ...this plugin was designed to work a certain way , if it's not used that way , it will not give the same result , not bad , but different ....
#1181
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1181
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Paraphrasing mastering engineer Bob Katz, analog summing boxes are typically used for rock, rap and pop tracks. But for mixes that demand a cleaner sound like orchestral, jazz and sometimes electronic (techno, dubstep) straight up all-digital tends to sound "better."

VCC is not for everything. I don't use it when mixing radio shows, for example. But man does it come alive for my folk rock stuff!
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#1182
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1182
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I just wish Slate would lose the iLok,and then I'd buy it in heartbeat,but with ZERO other software with iLok[Thanks Waves!]I don't want,that stupid dongle[$70 AUD and rising]for ONE plugin!

RK
#1183
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
I think a lot of people get used to the sterility of the "perfect" digital sound blank backdrop, but in reality a little noise is your friend if you want glue - I think of hiss like sitting by the sea and hearing the waves lap up - there has to a damn lot of wind before I take issue with it.

It seems that a lot of people like the extreme clarity of the daw mix, in which case, analog emulations probably aren't for you - there is no right or wrong, only your own taste.

Do what YOU hear as sounding the best - maybe VCC is not for your mixes (I do remember Fabrice mentioning at one point that the hiss is integral to the effect, so it MUST be there for VCC to do its thing).
I agree!

If VCC is causing the unwanted effect you really need to check every analog emulation plugin you have in your mix that can cause these artifacts( SSL buss comp, The Glue etc...)
#1184
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandescape View Post
I agree!

If VCC is causing the unwanted effect you really need to check every analog emulation plugin you have in your mix that can cause these artifacts( SSL buss comp, The Glue etc...)
+1 again,the backgound hiss,of an overdriven Marshall front end[and power amp]is actually cool if you leave it in[slightly],too many noise gates end up killing the ultra high frequencies,therefore losing some of the hair of the sound.
#1185
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabrice Gabriel View Post
Thanks !!
I'm glad that all the work that has been put in our products is truly appreciated. Each time it's such an honor to have positive feedback on the sound and features!



It's obviously more CPU-intensive than the VCC, but knowing the complexity of the algorithm and what it does to the sound, it make sense.
This is the price to get a 100% faithful algorithm, where some other plugins of the same kind take actually more CPU with a way less authentic algorithm...

We'll also be working on improving the DSP processing techniques, which won't change the algorithm by itself, but will improve the way data is handled by the CPU, thus improving performance.


Fabrice
thanks, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep things compatible with OSX.5.8!!!!!
#1186
14th June 2012
Old 14th June 2012
  #1186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
I think a lot of people get used to the sterility of the "perfect" digital sound blank backdrop, but in reality a little noise is your friend if you want glue - I think of hiss like sitting by the sea and hearing the waves lap up - there has to a damn lot of wind before I take issue with it.

It seems that a lot of people like the extreme clarity of the daw mix, in which case, analog emulations probably aren't for you - there is no right or wrong, only your own taste.

Do what YOU hear as sounding the best - maybe VCC is not for your mixes (I do remember Fabrice mentioning at one point that the hiss is integral to the effect, so it MUST be there for VCC to do its thing).
Or maybe just not on all tracks. On loud pumping tracks the noise is hardly noticeable, or even, as you say, helpful regarding the battle against that dirty phrase "digital sterility". But on dynamically ambient works let me assure you, the noise shows little respect for quiet passages.

When I started out producing electronic music in the early 90's there was no such thing as totally ITB mixing. I had a 24 channel mixing desk, some out board synths (many of which I still have and use) and a Yamaha sampler, along with some out board FX, compressors, re-verb, delay etc. And the one thing I remember clearly not being alone in was the never ending battle against unwanted noise. There were many (out of my price-bracket) automated mixing desks that could mute and un-mute channels as needed. Not that unsimilar to Hiss Auto Mute in VCC when you think about it.

I have trouble recollecting quality commercial tracks with an obvious hiss throughout.

To my ears VCC is the best sounding desk emulation out there when the noise is sufficiently masked. At this point I'm toying with the idea of trying Satson for ambient works, or even no emulation plugins at all. As ever, quality of sound is my goal. Always has been and always will be, and as always, I will never let sales hype and general opinion over ride what my ears perceive.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I hear a punter say "tune dude! And that hiss thing over the top was cool too."

Maybe Slate could find a way to put the hiss on its own track so we could add or remove as we see fit, or even do a little side-chaining. That might be cool.

ETA: Here's a thought that just came to mind. Maybe it would be a good idea to experiment with putting the VCC plugin last in the chain, after compression, EQ and other FX that effect volume, hence noise. Mmmm, food for thought. I'm on it
#1187
15th June 2012
Old 15th June 2012
  #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksguit View Post
I just wish Slate would lose the iLok,and then I'd buy it in heartbeat,but with ZERO other software with iLok[Thanks Waves!]I don't want,that stupid dongle[$70 AUD and rising]for ONE plugin!

RK
Slate would probably happily lose the iLok 2 if people weren't out there trying to happily crack their software.

I will keep buying good products from a company like this. But if you let everyone get a piece of the action "for free" that company can go under. Just look at some companies who no longer exist due to piracy. iLok 2 was a great business decision, leechers be damned to Tartarus.
#1188
15th June 2012
Old 15th June 2012
  #1188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Slate would probably happily lose the iLok 2 if people weren't out there trying to happily crack their software.

I will keep buying good products from a company like this. But if you let everyone get a piece of the action "for free" that company can go under. Just look at some companies who no longer exist due to piracy. iLok 2 was a great business decision, leechers be damned to Tartarus.
I couldn't agree more,it's just I have Sonar X1D Producer Exp.,Nomad Factory Pulse Tec,Plug and Mix V.I.P,and just upgraded to Guitar Rig 5 Pro,and SSD4 Platinum,+EZ/BFD etc etc,and a lot of VERY useful FREE 32 bit plugs[KUASSA Amplificationlite,Ferric TDS]all NO iLok,and as much as I'd love to get VCC,the dongle is just too much extra$+ hassle,and I'm trialling the Waves Maserati plugs,and will possibly get them,now they've finally gone 64bit,and No iLok.....

Being a ripped off musician[one of my songs was re-made into a TV tonight show theme,here in OZ in the early 90's...I obviously got NOTHING]I fully HATE illegal downloads,and have NEVER owned,or even used or touched the industry destructor-the iPod.

So does this mean that ALL the products,I have bought,are ALL being used for free-on mass,because they don't have iLok?

RK
#1189
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksguit View Post
Being a ripped off musician[one of my songs was re-made into a TV tonight show theme,here in OZ in the early 90's...I obviously got NOTHING]
Surely, all the more reason for endorsing the use of a simple and safe protection system - the iLok? I've reached the stage where I'll pretty well NOT buy a product that isn't iLok protected. The last two products I bought that weren't iLok protected took days to get authorised, and only then after exchanges of emails etc. etc.
#1190
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bing81 View Post
Surely, all the more reason for endorsing the use of a simple and safe protection system - the iLok? I've reached the stage where I'll pretty well NOT buy a product that isn't iLok protected. The last two products I bought that weren't iLok protected took days to get authorised, and only then after exchanges of emails etc. etc.
I'm totally with you on this. I've bought a lot of non ilok plugins over the years but on my last machine upgrade only the ilok plugins made it, because I can't stand the hassle of authorizing non ilokers. Multiple steps of finding passwords and serial numbers and machine ID's and opening and closing.. My ilok plugins I just install, and plug in the dongle. So painless. Love it.

Cheers,
Steven
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#1191
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1191
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Ilok's a nice idea, but flawed for professional use. If they were robust and properly guaranteed products I couldn't argue with them.

I was mixing a major label act, my waves ilok died mid session.

That alone is unacceptable

I was covered with zdt (a rather unpleasant extra charge for the ilok product's potential instability) so got replacement licenses through eventually

I then had to ship their defective product back to America on my dime...and hope waves would replace my licenses

Definitely left a sour taste. I still have to use it (i have hundreds of licenses still)
I wish more people offered an alternative.
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#1192
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1192
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Obviously experiences differ from person to person & machine to machine, but I have no issues with my iLOK's, Syncrosofts, Rainbows & CodeSticks all happily co-existing.
I would much rather have a dongle protection over challenge/response. Why? because what do you do when your challenge/response package is no longer able to be authorized?
I have a pile of plugs & bits I cannot reinstall simply because the company who made them no longer exists & it is now not possible to get an authorization to run them or - and this is even worse - the company who made them has discontinued them (or been bought out by someone else) and no longer supports what I bought.
Here's a few examples:
1 - WizooVerb W2 & W5 (I bought both, costing almost £750).
Uninstallable because Wizoo gotswallowed by Digi & no longer authorizable.
2 - TC SurroundVerb.
Uninstallable as you cannot get the response code any longer from TC. Bye-Bye to another £500.
3 - Spectral Design's Q-Metric. Cost me almost £500 again, and cannot install it because the copy protection is CD based and will not run on my system. Spectral Design went west years ago & I am left with the boxes and plugs I cannot install.
I've not even bothered to list the dozens of sub £100 plugins running CR protection that can no longer be installed because the company went west for various reasons.

Licenses on my iLOKs are working just fine, and I simply do not need to worry about it.
The only gripe I have with iLOK is that if you set up a trial license & then decide not to buy the full version there is no way to get the expired license off your iLOK at all unless you transfer it to a spare one. This sucks, and it should definitely be possible to remove an old license from the key.
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#1193
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1193
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ilok works good
#1194
16th June 2012
Old 16th June 2012
  #1194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
I'm totally with you on this. I've bought a lot of non ilok plugins over the years but on my last machine upgrade only the ilok plugins made it, because I can't stand the hassle of authorizing non ilokers. Multiple steps of finding passwords and serial numbers and machine ID's and opening and closing.. My ilok plugins I just install, and plug in the dongle. So painless. Love it.

Cheers,
Steven
Agree.

I don't really get why it's such a big deal to some people.

12+ years and not a single issue w. ILok.

Setting up a new computer and installing your plugs is WAY less of a hassle w iLok compared to C/R, Machine ID, emailing the company, etc.

To be perfectly honest, I was a bit bummed to see Waves lose the iLok. But stoked on 64-bit for sure!!

Scott
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#1195
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1195
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Iv'e had ZERO hassle with serial/reg codes,and I can NOT buy an iLok stick for less than $65 AUD,and even then it has to be from interstate!-for ONE plugin......sorry no way.

I guess I'll get to try out VCC,when or if,I'm forced to use SONAR X1 with an iLok,but until then its-scan once,for a newly installed plugin,and then NEVER again,open a project,and it's all there on 2 machines-no dongles.

Different strokes I guess.
RK.
#1196
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rksguit View Post
Iv'e had ZERO hassle with serial/reg codes ...

RK.
Well, I have.

With Toontrack I have had to reautorize everything after removing a usb wireless internet connector. I believe they still include external equipment in their computer ID. So don't forget or change usb stuff if you do mobile work. You could get into trouble.

With IK Multimedia I have lost authorizations because they don't recognize it's the same computer ID you reauthorize. It is your responsibility to keep your auth codes in a safe place, not just going online to get authorized again.

With Kjaerhus the company just disappeared, so I can't use their stuff anymore on my new computer. Assuming my authorizations remain for lifetime in iLok. I would not have been in this situation if iLok had been used.

Just a few examples that come to mind. Not to mention all the time it takes to log into different sites and authorize when you have plugins from many different companies. With iLok you only need to install the plugins and run.
#1197
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1daly View Post
This might have already been discussed, but has anyone else been noticing some disturbing aspects about the VCC sound? I hear this both on individual channels, and the mix bus: it's a kind of smeary high frequency distortion. I also feel like the general clarity and realism of my sound gets lost. It's not that I lose high end (which I perceive on a lot of "analog modeling" plugins) but that the overall sound is cloudy, the detail gets lost. I have found the VCC most useful when trying to get a mix together very quickly, it does do a very cool "glue" kind of thing. I've also liked it on toms, it gives them more impact somehow. But these other aspects make me feel queasy (literally) when I listen.
I still find it very subtle at times, especially on tracks with low track count. I will listen for what you're describing next time I mix.
First mix I finished using VCC, see Soundcloud link below.

I think it made a difference, and I'll find it difficult not to reach for it everytime now. But I will listen for things that might get lost too.
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#1198
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1198
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Hey guyz i received some requests about how to setup a mix with vcc ....so here it is with gain staging introduction ...




As usual pure improvisation , so sorry if some terms are not well chosen ...

Hope you guyz enjoy it ...feel free to ask for some more ...

Be sure to watch in HD
#1199
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1199
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as far as the hiss,,,i haven't really noticed it and my hiss control is off
#1200
17th June 2012
Old 17th June 2012
  #1200
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The only hiss i noticed is my wife !
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