Pro and Express, Logic

[Fast Castle]

Apologies if this is trodden ground. I did a search and couldn't get satisfied.

I'm doing my first film sound and score job through the next 4 months. I'm excited.

I was supposed to get a G5 Imac and Logic Pro for the job, until budget considerations bumped me down to Logic Express. Now I'm upset.

Logic Pro's been calling to me for a long time now, but instead I'm forced to hang with Pro's wimpy little brother.

Has anyone compared Pro and Express much? Above all I'm concerned with preservation of the sound. Express, like Pro, integrates Quicktime, and both Pro and Express, I understand, process at 32-bit float. So no problems, right? Anyone know?

I'm not concerned with heavy tracking. 2 channels in and out will do. Nor do I need the instruments, synths, etc.. in Pro. 80% of the sound is already recorded onto DAT and will be moved into the DAW. I am concerned with reverbs, eq, level control and ... well, actually I'm not sure what I should be concerned with because, like I say, this is my first film job.

I'd be grateful for opinions from the knowledgable folk here at Gearslutz. Can Express work out fine in this instance, or do I have grounds to say to the money guys that Express just won't cut it? Thanks.

[littledoodler]

Isn't the difference primarily plugins between the two. Also, there is a comparison chart on the apple site and they are virtually the same except you get the convolution reverb plug for pro, and a bunch of other plugs. Do you know any students, 'cause the academic version (which is the same) for pro is half the price?

[Fast Castle]

Thanks littledoodle. You know, until you wrote "do you know any students?" it hadn't occured to me to get someone else (i.e., a student) to do the purchasing. Duh. You may have helped me out a lot. Thanks.

[tidalbomb]

Our local bookstore is selling the student version of Pro for $200. There might be similar deals around your neck of the woods....

[AcousTronic]

Yeah, do what you can to get Pro... I have Express right now, but can't wait to get Pro!! Pro has so many great instruments and plugs. Alot of guys are doing incredible productions completely within Pro.

I had to spend my cash on a high end mic and pre, knowing that I can remix my tunes, once I get Pro. I would rather have to remix, than to re-record.

[Tibbon]

Maybe it's some setting I have wrong (couldn't find any reference to OMF setting in the manual but...), but OMF in Logic seems really poor. It worked PERFECTLY in protools. Oh, it was a session from Avid, which I figure most film students will be using.

Go with Logic Pro. Its worth it and it works sooo well.

[Fast Castle]

Guess I'm getting myself an academic version of Logic Pro.

Tibbon, it looks like we're in a similar situation. I've done plenty of music production, but this is my first film gig. Furthermore, I've not worked worked with Logic before (but am looking forward to it!).

I'm importing from Final Cut Pro though, and not Avid, which should make things easier (maybe?), but I'm a serious newbie at this and don't yet have a clear idea how files will be moved back and forth.

I also will not be getting a "locked down" video to work with. We're doing it the hard way, editing video and sound back and forth, which is a headache, I know. Furthermore, the video editor is in another city.

Anyone with some tips on how best to streamline this difficult process? What formats should we use passing edits between Final Cut and Logic? Any tips would be appreciated. Good luck on your project Tibbon. thumbsup

[MACINTONWA]

I think photo jpeg is the best QTime files for logic, they seem to run the smoothest for me, and OMF and XML work fine if you have the latest MACOS system on both machines.

If you are doing sound-design as well, you may want to stick to OMF as it gives you the whole audio file, XML gives you the choise of how much pre-roll.

Check out what system the video editor has, if it is FCP pre4.5 HD, I think the crossfades data doesnt transfere so well, but that may have changed in PRO 7.1.1.

All you need to do there is when he exports the file ask him not to tick the "include the cross fade data" when he is exporting OMF.

These days I work with XML files from FCP and it works really well!

good luck

[Lagerfeldt]

You mentioned reverb...

As you might have discovered you do *not* get the SpaceDesigner reverb plug-in with the Express version, only with the Pro version.

The SpaceDesigner is a nice plug-in just for standard reverb, but truly excellent for doing effects for movies, commercials or just sound effects.

Processesing quality in Express and Pro are the same, but features and plug-ins are different.

[Fast Castle]

Good stuff.

Macintonwa, you say in your post:

"you may want to stick to OMF as it gives you the whole audio file, XML gives you the choise of how much pre-roll."

Can you clarify this a little? OMF gives me the "whole audio file" but XML doesn't? And is there an advantage to manually setting preroll through XML? (if I understand this, "preroll" is a set amount of buffering time, and this is set automatically through OMF?).

Talbot, see it's stuff like the absent Time Code display in Express that I suspected I'd run into. It must have slipped Mac's mind to mention that little detail in the chart... or could it be that Mac profits from people buying Express in order to learn they need to buy Pro?

Thanks for the heads up about Spacedesigner. I recorded a lot of sounds out of room-context, thinking I'd create ambience later, and that's exactly the kind of plug I hoped for.

[Veej007]

another consideration is that pro includes the "detect cuts" feature, which analyzes the video and automatically drops markers into your sequence at places where it thinks the camera cuts are. i have express, but i've only been doing short 30-second tv spots. that feature would be invaluable for a longer movie (when i did longer projects, i used to set up all those markers manually and it took forever).

[jacko]

There is no sidechain in Express, less plugins, less inserts per track etc. I think there is no Mackie Control support either. I wouldn't buy Express, just wait and buy Pro for $619 on Ebay (not academic!).

[MACINTONWA]

[QUOTE=Fast Castle]Good stuff.

Macintonwa, you say in your post:

"you may want to stick to OMF as it gives you the whole audio file, XML gives you the choise of how much pre-roll."

Can you clarify this a little? OMF gives me the "whole audio file" but XML doesn't? And is there an advantage to manually setting preroll through XML? (if I understand this, "preroll" is a set amount of buffering time, and this is set automatically through OMF?).
________________________________________________________________

When I import OMF into Logic and all the regon are in the arrange, I lock all regons to smpte, At the start/end of a regon you can then drag out the whole file ( LOCKED )expanding you regon and finding some more suitable audio if need be, if you need to make longer fades, or vowel sounds are choped off by the editor or there camera man captured some crazy sound/music/ambient or what ever and you feel like you want to experment...

With XML when exporting you are asked how much pre-roll you want per regon before the regon starts, at least that is how I understand it...

WARNING it may not be called pre-roll, I need to call the editor

I hope that clearer

(if I understand this, "preroll" is a set amount of buffering time, and this is set automatically through OMF?).

??? I'm not shure what would need to be buffered in an OMF

[MACINTONWA]

Originally Posted by Veej007

another consideration is that pro includes the "detect cuts" feature, which analyzes the video and automatically drops markers into your sequence at places where it thinks the camera cuts are. i have express, but i've only been doing short 30-second tv spots. that feature would be invaluable for a longer movie (when i did longer projects, i used to set up all those markers manually and it took forever).

________________________________________________________________
detect cuts is cool, but when setting up your movie/OMF/XML you need to go through the movie with the director or the storyboard, detect cuts comes from thousands of FCP edits. and you can end up with WAY TO MANY cuts. you will need to stick a lot of them together before using then for reliable markers for writing music with different tempos etc.

[jwh1192]

just a note:

i just finished helping a great composer on a 2 million dollar film (low to mid price) and he used pro tools and logic ...

they did all the editing in FCP at 23.98 (film was shot in HD) ... pro tools can work at 23.98 but logic does not support it ... (logic 7.1.1)

on the last day of work we had a rush to get the last piece mixed and delivered to the dub stage ... logic had all sorts of troubles bouncing the last piece of score (14 bars long, 6 audio tracks, and 8 EXS running vienna symphony samples) we had to bounce 3 times (bars 1-5, bars 5-10, and bars 10-14) then import into pro tools to piece together and do final bounce ...

well, when the parts were brought into pro tools we lined up the start times for each piece and hit play ... they did not line up properly ... so we did it again thinking human error had to have got the best of us ... we are both capable engineers and he is the composer ... samr thing ... so he had to sit and align them by ear ... they were not off by much but not frame or bar accurate ...

be aware of things like this ... do a few tests of how you will deliver your segments ...

i am not bad mouthing logic as it is a very powerful program but let us down big time ...

BTW: it took us so long that they put in another piece of music in instead ...

logic pro 7.1.1, G5 2.3 with 4.5 gigs of ram, pro tools HD 6.9.3, 192 I/O as hardware

get your ducks in a row before the shit hits the fan and you will be able to circumvent any issues but wait to try a new way to deliver and you may be sorry ...

and remember if you call for logic tech support it will cost 199.00 US per call ...

best of luck ...

PM or email me if i can help in any way ...

john

[twomp]

I would say to definitely get Logic Pro. The big showstoppers for me with Express is that it can only record 12 tracks at once, doesn't have nearly as many plugins (it doesn't have the i/o plug, which is really helpfull if you use outboard gear), and has virtually no usefull key commands. Just about everything you do with Express has to be done with the mouse....