CLA on using cracks

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

To be honest, I'm not too sure of whether a P2P network like Limewire can be monitored to identify downloaders at any given time. Maybe. That's beyond me.

Regardless, the typical approach is to go after seeders, not downloaders, which I agree with.

On Limewire identifying seeders of copyright files is very easy. You can see what they are sharing and from what IP. On DC++ it is even easier. So that is not really an issue.

Also we've seen with the Grokster and Limewire trials, P2P developers that code and distribute P2P apps for the purpose of piracy (without anti-piracy tools) can be held liable. So if someone wants to develop legit P2P, they will need some way to filter or moderate as well.

Yeah i get your point, however its not a solution, you close down Limewire, and another will come out, this was proven when Metallica placed a law suit against Napster, Napster shut down, and when that happened, a lot of P2P software started to arise, so i think that companies will just have to learn to live with piracy, same as in the old days were vinyl disks got damaged or broken during transportation, it was something that they just accepted and took into account.

So, theres no real way to stop piracy, however there might be a way to reduce the amount of profit loss due to piracy, and that is lowering the prices IMHO.

[dualflip]

I dont want to start a new thread here, but you also need to consider the liabilities of buying legit, i mean take i-lok for instance, if you bought your mercury bundle and somehow you didnt pay insurance for your ilok which then gets lost, damaged, or whatever, then you are screwed.

Things shouldnt be hard for the ones who buy legit, they should be hard for the ones who dont buy the software, those are the ones not having to pay for OS updates, iloks, ilok insurance, sloppy licence protocols, etc...

Back in the day, before CD recorders existed, you could have a tape of a certain record, but it was obvious that the tape was very inferior to the original product, so it wasnt a real threat. However today, it seems that things are just the opposite, the cracked versions seem to be faster, easier, and better than the original product, and specially, free (for the narrow minded user). So you tell me, what is it exactly that they are doing for the user that buys legit? besides giving them a little tap in the back and telling them "Thanks for doing the right thing"

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Yeah i get your point, however its not a solution, you close down Limewire, and another will come out, this was proven when Metallica placed a law suit against Napster, Napster shut down, and when that happened, a lot of P2P software started to arise, so i think that companies will just have to learn to live with piracy

The trial to hold Grokster liable in 2005 was a major event (it took two years to complete). The trial in 2010 to hold Limewire liable didn't even go to court. The judge passed judgment practically overnight on precedent.

The law only works once it's established. It is not yet established. But little by little we're getting there.

People vastly overestimate the ability of pirates to shirk accountability. The only reason they haven't been held accountable is the laws have not been there.

The only piracy methods that truly block accountability (via long path proxy anonymity) are hot beds for seriously ugly online crimes and will not get the same positive press or public support as piracy generally has.

So no, I do not share your belief piracy is inevitable. Some degree of hardcore piracy will always exist. But to the masses? It's completely unnecessary. It exists only because it is allowed to.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

So no, I do not share your belief piracy is inevitable. Some degree of hardcore piracy will always exist. But to the masses? It's completely unnecessary. It exists only because it is allowed to.

Let just hope you are right and im not.... however with all the limitations origianl software puts everyone, i stand with my question what is it exactly that they are doing for the user that buys legit? besides giving them a little tap in the back and telling them "Thanks for doing the right thing"

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by dualflip

I dont want to start a new thread here, but you also need to consider the liabilities of buying legit, i mean take i-lok for instance, if you bought your mercury bundle and somehow you didnt pay insurance for your ilok which then gets lost, damaged, or whatever, then you are screwed.

You have to cover your ass if your laptop get stolen or damaged without any backup - you are the only person to blame if you did not steps to ensure your laptop and back up your Data.

If your ilok gets damaged send the damaged ilok back and they will replace all you licenses for free.

If you loose your ilok Waves has Theft and Loss coverage and many manufactures will replace licenses that have been stolen if not buy insurance like your Laptop should have.

Do you have fire and theft insurance for your studio gear and building?

[jeremy.c.]

I'm not sure I'm going to contribute anything new to the discussion, but I felt like joining in anyway, but I can't understand with the quality of free and inexpensive and donation only plugins and the quality of the stock stuff that comes with every DAW nowadays, why anyone would *need* to steal cracks to achieve quality. I think Waves is coasting off their name much like PT does in terms of charging too much for a product that can be had at a cheaper price elsewhere. Eventually free market forces will move in and force Waves to go far ahead of the game or lower their prices.

Sadly the fact that people still feel compelled to pirate shows their name still carries weight. But UA still holds a fair share of the plugin market and is making comparable decisions in versatility, name brand and quality and they are providing a service to professionals; namely an unbreakable dongle. Sure it pisses people off, but it also secures the investment the pros are making in their products and helps pros keep an edge on the amatuers in terms of available gear. There has always been a barrier to entry in terms of gear and only those who put in the time and the years could afford to buy in. Software has lowered the bar on this barrier, but Universal Audio has figured a way to get things cheaper, but still maintain a line to cross over.

Personally, I believe a barrier to entry is a healthy thing for any industry. It doesn't have to be a huge gap, but maintaining a balance on who is serious vs who is just wanking off is a good thing (just take a listen around myspace or a look around youtube to illustrate my point). I would think serious professionals and serious amatuers would be thanking a company like Waves if they provided an unbreakable dongle solution. A little inconvenience to protect a long term investment (in their own equipment as well as the state of their industry) would be worth the trouble... in my mind at least.

[dasnub]

Originally Posted by dualflip

I dont want to start a new thread here, but you also need to consider the liabilities of buying legit, i mean take i-lok for instance, if you bought your mercury bundle and somehow you didnt pay insurance for your ilok which then gets lost, damaged, or whatever, then you are screwed.

Things shouldnt be hard for the ones who buy legit, they should be hard for the ones who dont buy the software, those are the ones not having to pay for OS updates, iloks, ilok insurance, sloppy licence protocols, etc...

Back in the day, before CD recorders existed, you could have a tape of a certain record, but it was obvious that the tape was very inferior to the original product, so it wasnt a real threat. However today, it seems that things are just the opposite, the cracked versions seem to be faster, easier, and better than the original product, and specially, free (for the narrow minded user). So you tell me, what is it exactly that they are doing for the user that buys legit? besides giving them a little tap in the back and telling them "Thanks for doing the right thing"

This is maybe the best point thus far. I know people who own legitimate software and actually download the cracked versions because they're less of a hassle to use, and function better.

Many companies have given up on copy protection altogether, and they're smart. They do a serial number and nothing else. Hackers are always going to find a way to crack software, so trying to thwart them is a futile effort that leads to wasted time, effort, and money. Everyone thought they had it beat with the iLok, and even that got cracked recently.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

You have to cover your ass if your laptop get stolen or damaged without any backup - you are the only person to blame if you did not steps to ensure your laptop and back up your Data.

Its not the same, we are talking about licences here, not software, if my laptop gets stolen, my Windows, Office, and every other licenced program i have are still valid, i dont have to ship my box of Windows to Microsoft in order for them to let me have a licence back. Remember its not the software its the licence that matters.

[The MPCist]

Also, I don't agree with the Waves policy of "your plugins are on the iLok so if that gets screwed, you're SOL".dfegad

[MERC476]

Originally Posted by Tui

$12,375 but the electronic delivery is FREE!!!!!!

[Lackatee]

With all due respect, this is like the "War on Drugs" - People steal. It's been going on since man can remember. This really is no exception, it's just a new modern age way of stealing things that are part of the modern age. Any laws don't really stop people from committing crimes. We all know that. I would go as far as saying that software theft represents a tiny fraction of the overall theft that's going on in the world. Whether it's fraud, retail store theft, identity theft, credit card number theft, cable TV theft, music theft... whatever... Although, I don't have any fancy statistics, graphs, or .wav files to prove this.

Trying to stop cracks is like trying to stop the whole world from stealing stuff.. That's absurd and you'll never win that battle. It's just not reality. Plus, the damage is already done.. Those cracks can be used forever now. DVD, Flash and Hard drive archives can be made of all the cracks so they can last for years to come. So now what?? Your best option from here on out would be to find the crackers themselves and stop them. New cracking groups will surely arise though, just like they do for everything else in our world. And the battle continues... It's sad, but that's the reality of it.

And the thing about software is.. There's no physical evidence to trace. There's no physical product to retrieve. It's all 1's and 0's, making it even more of a complex situation. Tough battle to fight indeed. But you gotta go down the signal chain and we always start at the source.

[7thangelz]

re: dongles

Jailbreaking Dongle Freedom! iPhone Users, DVD Copiers Oppressed No More! - New York News - Runnin' Scared

The U.S. Copyright Office ruled on Monday that it is now not a violation of U.S. Copyright Law to do any of those things! [Also: A "Dongle" is not your penis. It's an "external security device."] Which is awesome! The AP reports that the ruling will, legally speaking:

-- allow owners of used cell phones to break access controls on their phones in order to switch wireless carriers.
-- allow people to break technical protections on video games to investigate or correct security flaws.
-- allow college professors, film students and documentary filmmakers to break copy-protection measures on DVDs so they can embed clips for educational purposes, criticism, commentary and noncommercial videos.
-- allow computer owners to bypass the need for external security devices called dongles if the dongle no longer works and cannot be replaced.

what would this actually cover? (the bolded part)

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lackatee

With all due respect, this is like the "War on Drugs" - People steal. It's been going on since man can remember. This really is no exception, it's just a new modern age way of stealing things that are part of the modern age. Any laws don't really stop people from committing crimes. We all know that.

Completely disagree.

Laws absolutely stop people from committing crimes.

I don't have any fancy statistics either but do you really believe that most of the people that steal software, music or movies would walk into a store and steal that physical boxed product?

And the war on drugs does work. To a certain degree.

Are most people not going to buy marijuana for "fear" of being caught? No. Because it's hard to get caught.

Am I going to sell marijuana? Probably not. There's not much money in it. At least in small amounts.

What about cocaine in large amounts? Would I sell cargo ships full of cocaine if I knew the chance of getting caught was on par with sharing a Lady Ga Ga song?

Umm. Yeah. I would.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Lackatee

With all due respect, this is like the "War on Drugs" - People steal. It's been going on since man can remember. This really is no exception, it's just a new modern age way of stealing things that are part of the modern age. Any laws don't really stop people from committing crimes. We all know that. I would go as far as saying that software theft represents a tiny fraction of the overall theft that's going on in the world. Whether it's fraud, retail store theft, identity theft, credit card number theft, cable TV theft, music theft... whatever... Although, I don't have any fancy statistics, graphs, or .wav files to prove this.

and that is a fraction of the theft going on at the corporate level... crimes against humanity is what that should be called.

Trying to stop cracks is like trying to stop the whole world from stealing stuff.. That's absurd and you'll never win that battle. It's just not reality. Plus, the damage is already done.. Those cracks can be used forever now. DVD, Flash and Hard drive archives can be made of all the cracks so they can last for years to come. So now what?? Your best option from here on out would be to find the crackers themselves and stop them. New cracking groups will surely arise though, just like they do for everything else in our world. And the battle continues... It's sad, but that's the reality of it.

They're good until the OS changes and the plugins aren't ported. I used to be ambivalent to the idea of UA using a separate DSP chip so the plugins are basically uncrackable unless you rewrite the entire base code, but now I see the value. Sure you pay more up front and they're slightly crippled in terms of power, but there is no WUP (OS updates for free) and if your card is stolen you're out the cost of a card, but not the licenses. I think if Waves did this there might be some backlash at first, but if people want their investment protected the way hardware is, then the hardware component is necessary, otherwise, like you said, piracy is inevitable and we're stuck with it as its the human condition.

And the thing about software is.. There's no physical evidence to trace. There's no physical product to retrieve. It's all 1's and 0's, making it even more of a complex situation. Tough battle to fight indeed. But you gotta go down the signal chain and we always start at the source.

Whoever figures out a way to do this will make billions from the RIAA and other software companies...

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Completely disagree.

Laws absolutely stop people from committing crimes.

I don't have any fancy statistics either but do you really believe that most of the people that steal software, music or movies would walk into a store and steal that physical boxed product?

And the war on drugs does work. To a certain degree.

Are most people not going to buy marijuana for "fear" of being caught? No. Because it's hard to get caught.

Am I going to sell marijuana? Probably not. There's not much money in it. At least in small amounts.

What about cocaine in large amounts? Would I sell cargo ships full of cocaine if I knew the chance of getting caught was on par with sharing a Lady Ga Ga song?

Umm. Yeah. I would.

You contradict yourself Kenny, the laws don't stop you, the inability to actually get away with it stops you, and that's actually what he was saying. We're straddled with the problem until it's enforceable.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

And the war on drugs does work. To a certain degree.

Are most people not going to buy marijuana for "fear" of being caught? No. Because it's hard to get caught.

Am I going to sell marijuana? Probably not. There's not much money in it. At least in small amounts.

What about cocaine in large amounts? Would I sell cargo ships full of cocaine if I knew the chance of getting caught was on par with sharing a Lady Ga Ga song?

In Afghanistan, they grow fields and fields of opium. I'm sure to a young Afghan the notion of controlling it would seem impossible. Yet over here it is rather well contained. Not perfect, but good enough IMO. I'd love to see a farmer try to do that in Europe or North America.

I'm not equating drugs with piracy. I'm just saying no one expects perfect piracy laws or enforcement. The War on Drugs is a good model to go from. No, you cannot expect to stamp it out globally. Diehards will always do anything for a fix. But that is acceptable.

Originally Posted by jeremy.c.

You contradict yourself Kenny, the laws don't stop you, the inability to actually get away with it stops you, and that's actually what he was saying. We're straddled with the problem until it's enforceable.

The laws define whether it is enforceable. We do not have the laws needed, because most IP laws were written before this was a problem. They will need to be updated.

[miro]

CLA on using crack..

[Lackatee]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Completely disagree.

Laws absolutely stop people from committing crimes.

I don't have any fancy statistics either but do you really believe that most of the people that steal software, music or movies would walk into a store and steal that physical boxed product?

And the war on drugs does work. To a certain degree.

Are most people not going to buy marijuana for "fear" of being caught? No. Because it's hard to get caught.

Am I going to sell marijuana? Probably not. There's not much money in it. At least in small amounts.

What about cocaine in large amounts? Would I sell cargo ships full of cocaine if I knew the chance of getting caught was on par with sharing a Lady Ga Ga song?

Umm. Yeah. I would.

Ok, we can agree to disagree. I'm not going to argue the semantics of crime and theft and who would do what, where and when... Neither of us know that info. And I'm not really interested in getting in a heated debate over something so trivial.

My point wasn't that having laws is pointless and they don't do anything. Of course they do... While its a good deterrent, both morally and socially, they just don't stop everyone from making the right choice. And thats the bottom line.

Regards,

[Lackatee]

Originally Posted by jeremy.c.

You contradict yourself Kenny, the laws don't stop you, the inability to actually get away with it stops you, and that's actually what he was saying. We're straddled with the problem until it's enforceable.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make, although mine wasn't quite as elegantly worded as yours.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by miro

i like this post!

Yes, truly spoken like someone who has no understanding of what it takes to write software (the original post). If you want cheaper prices, then learn how to code and work for cheaper rates than software engineers cost. Or write your own plugins and see how easy it is. It costs a lot of money to develop software. For some reason people have the hardest time accepting that intellectual property has just as much value as physical property. Why should it be cheaper? It certainly didn't cost less to make. Should these developers go broke in order to appease people who are cheap?

People here claim the software is over priced. Based on what? Based on the fact that there are a few pieces of software written by a guy at home with little expenses who doesn't need to advertise much, doesn't have a huge staff to pay, and doesn't have to provide in the quantity as most companies do.

[moonK]

Originally Posted by bkbirge

Didn't see the 's' on the end of the title at first, lol.

shit i thought it was the 5oclock free crack giveaway

[PFRfan]

Originally Posted by colinmiller

If you want cheaper prices, then learn how to code and work for cheaper rates than software engineers cost. Or write your own plugins and see how easy it is. It costs a lot of money to develop software.

I'd be curious to see how much some of these companies pay in salary to their coders and how much they pay their marketing department. It's their prerogative to spend how they want to spend and charge what they want to charge. But don't mistake the cost of developing plugins with the cost of running a business. For companies like that, the former is a small part of the latter.

And remember: once the engineers have been paid for their coding, then they're just choosing HOW to sell it. They could sell it for $1000 and get 200 buyers, or they could sell the same thing for $200 and get 1000 buyers. It makes no difference in the profit - just in the chosen business model. It seems that Waves likes to present themselves as an industry standard. Even if they sold 5000 at $200, their image would take a hit and if they're not the hot flavor, all of the sudden they're selling 500 next year at $200 and going out of business.

I am not inclined to believe that they have invested more time in writing their plugins than others have in writing their entire DAW's. They just don't WANT to sell to me (as a hobbyist). That's cool with me, and I'm not bitter about it. I just had to learn that I don't HAVE to use their products. There are many other options. Some also very expensive, some much less so, and some free.

CLA is a very successful engineer, but his view that software piracy is a major threat to his livelihood show an incredible ability to miss the obvious. Software piracy is NOT like stealing a Lambo (to quote an earlier post). It IS stealing, but there is no product missing. The company doesn't have to say, "Oh, man! Now we have to write another program!!". It's more like a bakery makes great bread and charges $25 per loaf. They throw it out at the end of the day. Somebody sneaks into the place and takes the bread. It's trespassing and theft. But it's only costing the company money if that guy was actually willing to pay $25/loaf in the first place. Stealing is stealing, but software companies claiming that all piracy is lost income is stupidity.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by PFRfan

companies claiming that all piracy is lost income is stupidity.

Obviously agree. But I don't know any way to quantify the relationship between piracy and income loss except to put in place regulations to minimize it, and see what happens to the marketplace as a result.

One recent estimate (speculative) from some Harvard researchers was that up to 20% of piracy is lost income. But it's just a guess. Those same guys used to say it was 0%. So it's not like they really know any better than anyone else.

[Khord]

I don´t know about Waves but if i have a look at the Native Instruments site (and they get probably cracked even more then Waves) and see how many jobs they offer i don´t get the feeling that these companies don´t grow.
After so many years in the business and with so many people employed they must know quite precise how much software they can sell based on the numbers of the last years. And i can not believe that all of a sudden so many loyal customers start downloading cracked software so that their business plan collapses.
Like someone said before, pirating is marketing for free and i think thats right. The more is out there the more its likely that people deceide to buy it once they can afford it.

[api2500]

Originally Posted by Khord

I don´t know about Waves but if i have a look at the Native Instruments site (and they get probably cracked even more then Waves) and see how many jobs they offer i don´t get the feeling that these companies don´t grow.
After so many years in the business and with so many people employed they must know quite precise how much software they can sell based on the numbers of the last years. And i can not believe that all of a sudden so many loyal customers start downloading cracked software so that their business plan collapses.
Like someone said before, pirating is marketing for free and i think thats right. The more is out there the more its likely that people deceide to buy it once they can afford it.

Demos is marketing. That simply doesn't work. It looks very neat and justifiable on paper but that simply isn't the case. They'll spend their money that they earn on new monitors or controllers or interfaces and still have thousands of pounds worth of software on their computers. That is simply not justifiable.

They've stolen Logic, then they spend that £500 on new monitors, they don't get that Logic also requires work, effort, bloody, sweat and tears. That just isn't on.

[PFRfan]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

Obviously agree. But I don't know any way to quantify the relationship between piracy and income loss except to put in place regulations to minimize it, and see what happens to the marketplace as a result.

One recent estimate (speculative) from some Harvard researchers was that up to 20% of piracy is lost income. But it's just a guess. Those same guys used to say it was 0%. So it's not like they really know any better than anyone else.

Fair enough. I think that it's entirely dependent on the type of software that's being pirated. AutoCAD is software that's primarily pirated by people who will be using it for business purposes but don't want to spend the dough (my personal guess).

Anyway, my point was that the star of the video was acting like we was going to war so his children don't have to hold him a place in line at the soup kitchen. When the truth is that Waves has helped to create their niche in the stolen software market. They price their items on the top shelf, then make them uber-easy to crack so that up-and-comers get used to them. When the guys get big enough, they buy the plugs so they're "legit". It's almost like a viral marketing campaign.

I personally like UA's style a little better. You sell a dongle that doubles as a CPU-offloader. It's pretty much foolproof because the plugins don't get processed by anything but their hardware. This way, they're guaranteeing that their users are legit, and giving them a little back (even though few people need the extra horsepower nowadays).

I don't mean this in a political way, but Waves is a little too much like the USCIS. The law says you can't live in the US without being a citizen (for more than 6 months with a green card). But we have no fence, no real border presence, give you no real pathway to get legal and give you tons of benefits if you do come here. We usually won't deport you if you get caught, but we act like you're the scum of the earth for breaking our laws, and blame you for the demise of our national sovereignty.

Well, I see a parallel, anyway.

[Plugin]

Originally Posted by frankreverbo

Someone needs to explain to Mr. Alge that "those" plugins are really overpriced and don't do what they are paid for. Maybe he will understand.

I think the same thing about Ferraris, but it doesn't mean I'm going to steal one or purposely damage someone's property. What is this nonsense?tutt

[Khord]

Originally Posted by api2500

Demos is marketing. That simply doesn't work. It looks very neat and justifiable on paper but that simply isn't the case. They'll spend their money that they earn on new monitors or controllers or interfaces and still have thousands of pounds worth of software on their computers. That is simply not justifiable.

They've stolen Logic, then they spend that £500 on new monitors, they don't get that Logic also requires work, effort, bloody, sweat and tears. That just isn't on.

I agree with you to some extend but i know for a fact that there are people who act differently.
The main point is: You can not make a business plan if you include all the possible users out there. It just doesn´t work and it doesn´t seem reasonable. There is a certain amount of people who buy your stuff and who you can count on. And if you check Native Instruments: it works.
For some people its the only way to start making music because they simply can´t afford it but they will get their chance to make something out of it.

[PaPi61]

Originally Posted by PFRfan

AutoCAD is software that's primarily pirated by people who will be using it for business purposes but don't want to spend the dough (my personal guess).

Not sure about that. How about engineering and architectural students? Students of industrial design? I'm pretty sure a working engineer or architect would never use a cracked AutoCAD. These people make a lot of money and they can afford to buy the product. Not to mention they'll write it off.

[MonkeyAdam]

Originally Posted by Khord

I don´t know about Waves but if i have a look at the Native Instruments site (and they get probably cracked even more then Waves) ...

Waves plugs were very well protected until recently. From what I understand, someone cracked every single one of them.

They are pretty good, but with their prices and practices, I can hardly imagine how they stayed in business anyway. I also can't imagine that anyone who would steal their plugs would ever fork over that kind of money for them anyway. So they're probably not losing any business if other people want to "party" with their plugins too (btw, that was one of the least eloquent speeches I've heard since Jr. high football). It doesn't really count as marketing either, if they're never going to buy it anyway. 2¢