CLA on using cracks

[api2500]

Originally Posted by solo-bration

The API 1608 is out of my price range, so I'm just going to break into API headquarters and steal one. Serves them right for making it too expensive for me!

I'm actually up for that.

That API 1608 look hottt.

[Fuseburn]

I'm still waiting for Waves to follow the route of Crysonic: No Brainer Deal - Waves Mercury for 50 $

That would probably be the one thing convincing me even more than a video of a pissed of CLA.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

People who buy music buy music that is mainstream, which is all done in pro studios where they don't steal plugins. People who use cracks don't record anything anyone would buy in the first place, so its not going to have an effect on the music biz.

Not true - unfortunately. I'm not going to get into name-dropping, but I can tell you that I know of top pros that have been using cracks for *10* years, basically since the torrent thing came into existence. They think of torrents as "file-sharing communities".

We urgently need a serious and honest discussion about pricing, with respect to software. We are at a stage in the biz where there isn't so much money to go around anymore, in the way it was five, even two years ago. I now experience that clients don't want to pay anymore - at all! The assumption is that content is basically free. There is so much of it on the net - any style, any quantity. It is as if clients now think that, perhaps, the likes of Steven Spielberg still pay for music they ordered. "Regular" people steal music, free of guilt.

Today, we live in a different world. In this world, plug-ins that cost thousands are too expensive, except for a handful of pros with regular gigs.

The Lexicon bundle is too expensive, the new Flux bundle is too expensive, the Waves bundles are too expensive. A soft-compressor, at $250, is too expensive. The list goes on. With this kind of pricing, for many, the temptation to use illegit stuff is overwhelming. It is a reality that will not go away, it will grow stronger.

So here is my point: Software prices have to come way, way down, or everybody will eventually use cracks, and then it's game over for independent developers.

For me personally, in the current economic climate, I have given myself a limit for how much I will spend on a new plug-in. The cut-off point is 100 bucks, give or take a few pennies. I need to ask myself: Do I REALLY need another compressor, another EQ, another verb, another magical make-everything-sound-better plug-in? No, I don't. Only today, I tried out some compressor demos and carried out some critical listening against what I've got already (including Waves and Flux comps). The clear winner: Logic's stock compressor. So much for "You get what you pay for".

Bundled plug-ins are now so good, and there's so much free stuff available, that an EQ that costs $450 has to be considered a bad joke.

My advice to developers: Knock your prices right down, or alternatively, watch your business flush down the toilet.

I am sorry that it has come to this.

[Arcadia]

Originally Posted by Animus

Waves biggest enemy is summed up in one word. WUP. You basically pay for AND then rent their plugs...forever Not even mentioning that other plugin developers are wuping their asses.

+1 !!! I f'ing hate that every year I have to pay waves to keep my plug-ins simply running with the latest Mac OS. It's not like they give you any value, it's simply a scheme and sometimes it makes me want to sell all my Waves stuff and forget about that giant iLok in my Mac.

[lord_bunny]

When potential customers know you have infinite shelf-space, zero delivery costs and a huge market they expect you to price accordingly.

Waves is too expensive and so is .99 per song on iTunes. If I could upload my songs to an online dist. that sold tracks at .10 I would.

How much would it cost to fill up an ipod legally?

I use UAD, Voxengo, Celemony, Drumagog and loads of free plugins and the free plugins absolutley sound as good as anything. If someone bundled all the free plugins I've collected over the last three years and wanted $100 I would have paid just for the convenience of not having to search around.

To the people who say "people who pirate waves are this and that etc..." you don't know, you have no factual basis for those statements at all. I wouldn't be suprised to learn that a lot of big studios have illegally downloaded.

Really though, for software and hardware developers/retailers there has never been a better time. More people are recording than ever before. Instead of X many major studios there are thousands (if not more) of small to mid-sized ones.

[jx-10recorder]

I agree with waves plugins being overpriced. There is alot better options. For quality vs price.

I found this while surfing the internet:

Module Series - signaltonoize.com

PHOENIXINFLIGHT

These plugins are offered free/pay what you want, and they sound great. You just need a VST to RTAS wrapper for pro tools.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by lord_bunny

To the people who say "people who pirate waves are this and that etc..." you don't know, you have no factual basis for those statements at all. I wouldn't be suprised to learn that a lot of big studios have illegally downloaded.

There is another side to it, too. For a long time, it has been common to "Write the check, but use the crack". Meaning, as a studio owner you buy the plugs to stay on the right side of the law and morality, but to use cracks for actual work. The reason being, apparently a crack may "just work", but is not impaired by inane hard-disk authorisations or fragile USB dongles.

[iangomes]

Originally Posted by frankreverbo

Someone needs to explain to Mr. Alge that "those" plugins are really overpriced and don't do what they are paid for. Maybe he will understand.

Now that is just a silly comment.
If some plugins are over-priced and don't do what they advertise, don't buy them and don't steal them! Use something else!

[therecordinghous]

let sales dictate price. if its too much DON'T BUY IT! wtf.

[The MPCist]

I agree. Just because it's expensive doesn't give one the right to steal it.

FWIW, I'm not wealthy but I went ahead and bought Waves Mercury some time back because it helps me make money. Seemed like a simple thing to me. If I can afford to buy outboard, computers, mics, and whatnot, I should be able to afford some plugins.

But I do dislike the WUP!!!! With a vengeance!!!!

[dualflip]

**** piracy, **** CLA and **** Waves, for the price their asking, buy hardware, not plug-ins.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Tui

There is another side to it, too. For a long time, it has been common to "Write the check, but use the crack". Meaning, as a studio owner you buy the plugs to stay on the right side of the law and morality, but to use cracks for actual work. The reason being, apparently a crack may "just works", but is not impaired by inane hard-disk authorisations or fragile USB dongles.

Actually i dont know exactly how the licencing software products work, but i believe that if you bought the plugins but you are using the cracked version, you are technically not doing anything wrong, it may be morally wrong, but the fact is that if you paid for the plug-ins then who cares if you use the cracked version.

[miro]

Originally Posted by Tui

Not true - unfortunately. I'm not going to get into name-dropping, but I can tell you that I know of top pros that have been using cracks for *10* years, basically since the torrent thing came into existence. They think of torrents as "file-sharing communities".

We urgently need a serious and honest discussion about pricing, with respect to software. We are at a stage in the biz where there isn't so much money to go around anymore, in the way it was five, even two years ago. I now experience that clients don't want to pay anymore - at all! The assumption is that content is basically free. There is so much of it on the net - any style, any quantity. It is as if clients now think that, perhaps, the likes of Steven Spielberg still pay for music they ordered. "Regular" people steal music, free of guilt.

Today, we live in a different world. In this world, plug-ins that cost thousands are too expensive, except for a handful of pros with regular gigs.

The Lexicon bundle is too expensive, the new Flux bundle is too expensive, the Waves bundles are too expensive. A soft-compressor, at $250, is too expensive. The list goes on. With this kind of pricing, for many, the temptation to use illegit stuff is overwhelming. It is a reality that will not go away, it will grow stronger.

So here is my point: Software prices have to come way, way down, or everybody will eventually use cracks, and then it's game over for independent developers.

For me personally, in the current economic climate, I have given myself a limit for how much I will spend on a new plug-in. The cut-off point is 100 bucks, give or take a few pennies. I need to ask myself: Do I REALLY need another compressor, another EQ, another verb, another magical make-everything-sound-better plug-in? No, I don't. Only today, I tried out some compressor demos and carried out some critical listening against what I've got already (including Waves and Flux comps). The clear winner: Logic's stock compressor. So much for "You get what you pay for".

Bundled plug-ins are now so good, and there's so much free stuff available, that an EQ that costs $450 has to be considered a bad joke.

My advice to developers: Knock your prices right down, or alternatively, watch your business flush down the toilet.

I am sorry that it has come to this.

i like this post!

[Johnny Paez]

he looks like pretty angry hoho

[dualflip]

To be honest, and i might be wrong, but eventhough im against piracy, i dont think theres anything we can do to stop it, simply because theres no argument, awareness campaign effective enought to convince people to pay for something they can get for free, specially when we are talking about thousands of dollars.

Seriously think about it, the regular average guy can read stuff like "buy what you use, dont steal, do the right thing", but the truth of the matter is that the fact remains the same, the message is "buy something you could get for free" and as someone in another thread said, nothing beats free.

So the real deal here is what are the software companies planning to do, its obvious that their anti piracy campaigns are not working, its obvious that they are and will continue to loose money, they can convince some people to buy instead of downloading, but the vast majority will still dont give a shit.

So the question remains, what are they really thinking about doing against piracy? making more expensive Anti-piracy campaigns? good luck with that....

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Audio Hombre

"we'll do our best to keep the price point affordable." ya, ok CLA,that sounds like WAVES alright. gimme a break.

not saying i condone piracy by any stretch but sometimes you just have to call it like it is. and that, is almost a different form of piracy, similar to what's also called highway robbery. waves can eat it for all i care.

You posted the wrong link, this is the correct one, here you go: Waves Mercury Collection TDM | Sweetwater.com

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by dasnub

There's really no excuse for earning money from the plugs and stealing them.

There's no excuse even if you don't earn the money from using them.

Many working professionals can't afford the mercury bundle.

Should the amateurs have it?

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by dualflip

To be honest, and i might be wrong, but eventhough im against piracy, i dont think theres anything we can do to stop it, simply because theres no argument, awareness campaign effective enought to convince people to pay for something they can get for free, specially when we are talking about thousands of dollars.

Seriously think about it, the regular average guy can read stuff like "buy what you use, dont steal, do the right thing", but the truth of the matter is that the fact remains the same, the message is "buy something you could get for free" and as someone in another thread said, nothing beats free.

So the question remains, what are they really thinking about doing against piracy? making more expensive Anti-piracy campaigns? good luck with that....

I agree there is no way to convince people to buy based solely on their consciences. They just don't care enough. Most people don't make a living from IP, so they have no commitment to supporting it.

But if people were held accountable for the piracy through fines and/or temporary ISP disconnections, that would be different. Then they'd have a personal reason to care.

[Tui]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Waves Mercury Collection TDM | Sweetwater.com

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

I agree there is no way to convince people to buy based solely on their consciences. They just don't care enough. Most people don't make a living from IP, so they have no commitment to supporting it.

But if people were held accountable for the piracy through fines and/or temporary ISP disconnections, that would be different. Then they'd have a personal reason to care.

I agree, however you are talking about another controversial subject here, which basically translates into what gives a company the right to mess up with my privacy?

If you look at it, we are talking about 2 basic rights here, the companies right to demand no stealing of their products, and the user's right for privacy, so ok, that solution is basically taking away someone elses right (your privacy) in order to protect the companies right.

That doesnt sound like a solution to me, i mean a user that doesnt steal software or music, can also claim the right not to have his internet connection monitored and its as valid as the companies claim not to have their products downloaded ilegally.

[djrara]

now thats the truth hardware u can always get your money out off if deside 2 sell it and on the cracking thang they a tool that anybody can crack any plug in in 1 min google unpace *** so they will never stop it they should just make better plug ins that major studios will buy and make some that house studio can buy and be glad that they have made money this long the artist ain t making no money no more accept 4 show money so they should be glad that people are still buying plug ins it 2010 what did they expect everybody got a studio now but everybody can t mix and every good mix doesn t mean u gonna make money of the song i have spent over 40 grand on my studio and i haven t made 1 tenth of that back and im broke now but i plan to spend 40 more grand when i get another blessing on hardware **** waves as long as u make good music and good mixs that all i care about what u got to do 2 get there thats on u

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by dualflip

I agree, however you are talking about another controversial subject here, which basically translates into what gives a company the right to mess up with my privacy?

If you look at it, we are talking about 2 basic rights here, the companies right to demand no stealing of their products, and the user's right for privacy, so ok, that solution is basically taking away someone elses right (your privacy) in order to protect the companies right.

That doesnt sound like a solution to me, i mean a user that doesnt steal software or music, can also claim the right not to have his internet connection monitored and its as valid as the companies claim not to have their products downloaded ilegally.

It doesn't sound like a solution because what you're saying is a fallacy. Nobody needs to 'take away your privacy' to see what you are sharing on Bit Torrent, Limewire, or DC++. When you connect, you make your IP and the files you are pirating publicly available and anyone can see it. That's your choice.

Privacy has nothing to do with it.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by djrara

now thats the truth hardware u can always get your money out off if deside 2 sell it and on the cracking thang they a tool that anybody can crack any plug in in 1 min google unpace *** so they will never stop it they should just make better plug ins that major studios will buy and make some that house studio can buy and be glad that they have made money this long the artist ain t making no money no more accept 4 show money so they should be glad that people are still buying plug ins it 2010 what did they expect everybody got a studio now but everybody can t mix and every good mix doesn t mean u gonna make money of the song i have spent over 40 grand on my studio and i haven t made 1 tenth of that back and im broke now but i plan to spend 40 more grand when i get another blessing on hardware **** waves as long as u make good music and good mixs that all i care about what u got to do 2 get there thats on u

thanks for your comment man, but duuuude, a casual comma or period wouldnt hurt, i cant understand what you are saying...

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

It doesn't sound like a solution because what you're saying is a fallacy. Nobody needs to 'take away your privacy' to see what you are sharing on Bit Torrent, Limewire, or DC++. When you connect, you make your IP publicly available and anyone can see it. That's your choice.

Privacy has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, sure, however you agree that in order to do that, all IP addresses will need to be monitored more carefully to know if you are sharing on Bit Torrent and exactly what are you sharing, in which case they will actually see more than just your IP address, including your e-mails, web pages you browse, and even that nasty porno.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Yeah, sure, however you agree that in order to do that, all IP addresses will need to be monitored more carefully to know if you are sharing on Bit Torrent and exactly what are you sharing, in which case they will actually see more than just your IP address, including your e-mails, web pages you browse, and even that nasty porno.

This is not true either. You identify piracy on P2P by connecting to the swarm/network through the P2P protocol. You do not need to monitor any other traffic to do this. Any average person can already do it if they want. For example, on Bit Torrent, all you need to do is connect to that torrent yourself and see who else is there seeding.

There is just no point since there are not yet any consequences.

But no, you do not need to monitor someone's email to see they are sharing Waves cracks on Bit Torrent.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by mobius.media

This is not true either. You identify piracy on P2P by connecting to the swarm/network through the P2P protocol. You do not need to monitor any other traffic to do this. Any average person can already do it if they want. For example, on Bit Torrent, all you need to do is connect to that torrent yourself and see who else is there seeding.

There is just no point since there are not yet any consequences.

But no, you do not need to monitor someone's email to see they are sharing Waves cracks on Bit Torrent.

Fair enough, but what if im not downloading on Bit Torrent or anyother Torrent engine?, then what?, how would they know that im downloading piracy, in the case of P2P protocol, they can identify that im connected to the swarm/network, but how can they actually know that im downloading piracy then?, instead of just downloading whatever?, this of course sounds ridiculous since anyone who connects to a P2P network downloads something illegaly, however you can still download legaly in a P2P network, and the laws need proof, not just the most logical assumption.

So how can they effectively separate those who connect to a P2P network to download legally, and those who download illegaly?

[The MPCist]

Originally Posted by djrara

now thats the truth hardware u can always get your money out off if deside 2 sell it and on the cracking thang they a tool that anybody can crack any plug in in 1 min google unpace *** so they will never stop it they should just make better plug ins that major studios will buy and make some that house studio can buy and be glad that they have made money this long the artist ain t making no money no more accept 4 show money so they should be glad that people are still buying plug ins it 2010 what did they expect everybody got a studio now but everybody can t mix and every good mix doesn t mean u gonna make money of the song i have spent over 40 grand on my studio and i haven t made 1 tenth of that back and im broke now but i plan to spend 40 more grand when i get another blessing on hardware **** waves as long as u make good music and good mixs that all i care about what u got to do 2 get there thats on u

Couldn't read your whole post.. could have used a few paragraphs...

But I did read your heading 'buy hardware' and agree 100%.

Not only does it make better financial sense (can sell it off taking a small hit or even make some if it's valuable), it also is sonically superior.

Having said that, I still use the hell out of my Waves Mercury but also the hell out of my analog gear as well.



BTW, when I first read the title of the thread, I thought it was "CLA using crack"

[Tui]

I really don't know what could be done about piracy. I guess you could limit it if you were to close down all file-sharing sites. That, however, is both technically and legally impossible. Even if you prosecute individual users, you'll only ever catch a tiny fraction of offenders.

You'd have to shut down the entire net, to be successful. I'm sure there are a few ultra-capitalists that would go that far, but it's not a serious option.

The only solution I could imagine would be drastically reduced asking prices for commercial software. If genuine software is affordable, cracks loose their attraction (not to mention the risk of installing malware with every crack).

It's a tough one. If prices and subsequently profits drop too low, there is no more incentive for developers to develop anything. Rock and a hard place, kind of thing.

Who knows. Perhaps we'll all end up working for free. Perhaps producing music will be considered a hobby, not a profession.

[dualflip]

Originally Posted by Tui

I really don't know what could be done about piracy. I guess you could limit it if you were to close down all file-sharing sites. That, however, is both technically and legally impossible. Even if you prosecute individual users, you'll only ever catch a tiny fraction of offenders.

You'd have to shut down the entire net, to be successful. I'm sure there are a few ultra-capitalists that would go that far, but it's not a serious option.

The only solution I could imagine would be drastically reduced asking prices for commercial software. If genuine software is affordable, cracks loose their attraction (not to mention the risk of installing malware with every crack).

It's a tough one. If prices and subsequently profits drop too low, there is no more incentive for developers to develop anything. Rock and a hard place, kind of thing.

Who knows. Perhaps we'll all end up working for free. Perhaps producing music will be considered a hobby, not a profession.

I agree, reducing the prices seems like the better alternative, although it still wouldnt completely wipe out piracy. I mean people even download something which is worth 20 dlls, so it really doesnt matter how much you lower the price, although thats a start.

Regarding your comment about music turning into a hobby and not a profession, i think that as long as companies can make a profit out of something, no matter how small that is, they will find a way to exploit it and make more money out of it...

And lets be honest, in the case of Waves plug-ins, even with their plug-ins being cracked and stolen, they are still making a ton of money, if they sell their TDM Mercury bundle at 12,375 US dollars, is because someone actually buys it, so chances are theyll be here for a long time.

[mobius.media]

Originally Posted by dualflip

Fair enough, but what if im not downloading on Bit Torrent or anyother Torrent engine?, then what?, how would they know that im downloading piracy, in the case of P2P protocol, they can identify that im connected to the swarm/network, but how can they actually know that im downloading piracy then?, instead of just downloading whatever?, this of course sounds ridiculous since anyone who connects to a P2P network downloads something illegaly, however you can still download legaly in a P2P network, and the laws need proof, not just the most logical assumption.

So how can they effectively separate those who connect to a P2P network to download legally, and those who download illegaly?

To be honest, I'm not too sure of whether a P2P network like Limewire can be monitored to identify downloaders at any given time. Maybe. That's beyond me.

Regardless, the typical approach is to go after seeders, not downloaders, which I agree with.

On Limewire identifying seeders of copyright files is very easy. You can see what they are sharing and from what IP. On DC++ it is even easier. So that is not really an issue.

Also we've seen with the Grokster and Limewire trials, P2P developers that code and distribute P2P apps for the purpose of piracy (without anti-piracy tools) can be held liable. So if someone wants to develop legit P2P, they will need some way to filter or moderate as well.