Pro Tools|HD-TDM vs Nuendo-VST System Link vs Logic Pro-Distributed Audio Processing

[Rob G]

All,

Pro Tools|HD-TDM, vs. Nuendo-VST System Link, vs. Logic Pro-Distributed Audio Processing:

1.)You've got Digidesign's Pro Tools|TDM Accel systems that currently dominate the high-end DAW market. This format is 'the standard', & posesses arguably the best plug-in partnerships/support on the planet. The Core, & Accel cards provide an abundance of power processing but with limits based upon Digidesign's hardware/software limitations.

2.)Then you have Yamaha/Steinberg's Nuendo systems that sport an abundance of software features including some decent plug-ins that come with Nuendo but, also excellent VST plug-ins available from third party vendors, & has the VST Link which allows processing of Nuendo tasks across multiple computer's CPU processors. Nuendo is fast growing in the DAW arena, & currently has some major league producer/engineers touting this particular format. VST System Link is an inovative departure from the single computer using host processing, or the single computer with heavy duty PCI processing cards, & the respective expansion chassis designs that go along with the PCI architecture. VST Link provides a system with less limitations than those that are imposed upon hardare set ups that are totally dependent upon a single host processor, & posesses power potential of PCI based DAW systems. Quality third party AD/DA converters are a requirement as well as the hardware to interface the computer system with the respective converters.

3.)And last you have Apple's Logic Pro platform. This system posesses almost unlimited processing capabilities even into the far reaches of some 'super computers' due to the fact that multiple computers in this format can be connected together as nodes via ethernet with practically no limits in the number of nodes within a system. This system also requires quality third party AD/DA converters as well as the hardware to interface the computer system with the respective converters.


All of the above have their respective costs of entry. But questions arise as to what amount of investment is needed to have any one format match the power/ processing capabilities of the other. For example. How many nodes would it take to allow an Apple Logic Pro system to equal the processing capabilities of a Digidesign Pro Tools HD 3 Accel system, & so on, & so forth. Comments please.

Rob G..

[RyanC]

Hey Rob-

People like PT because when you are working ITB you can use FX in realtime without accumulating massive amounts of latency (typical project for me is 70 samples)- and there is no I/O buffer. If I had a 9000k and a rack of comps and H/W verbs behind me, I would be touting Nuendo as there are many features that I miss since I switched- but until native systems can get the latency factor in control PT will be king of DAWs. The pro's who use these things are not exactly in the same boat as the small studio guy. . .and system link is a joke- the network stuff is cool for post houses. But I doubt that any professional facility will ever use system link!!! why not just use Vstack and run soft synths of a 2nd machine? Or get uad cards, or a console, or PT. . .Every other option is preferable to me. with Nu costing 2500 and a 9652 costing another 600, not to mention you need more I/O's on the main machine you spend more on that junk then another accel card or a faster newer machine. Only to find out that computer #5 went down yesterday and "crap lets see, what plugins did I have on that machine" or "when was the last time I backed up the projects on machine #6?? ughh no thanks. . .

If I stumbled into a big awesome analog console, a rack full of sweet hardware compressors, and a tech to maintain it all- I would go back to NU in a heartbeat, but one modern dual proc machine and a couple of UAD's would do me fine. . .

[logichead]

Very difficult to compare. Depending on the job at hand, I think you could configure a similarly powered Native rig that sounds as good as or better than a PTHD rig for less dough, to a point. I have both types of system, and TDM plugs seem to sound a little better. And cost a LOT more. A nice Native rig could gain the advantage by investing the savings over TDM in some killer analog pieces.

The latency issue is there, but there are ways around it - such as splitting the signal (analog or digital) and monitoring through a console, with reverb, etc. In this scenario, latency will be lower than in a TDM system.

From a sonic standpoint, I'm not sure a listener could tell which DAW (software and computer, Native or TDM) a project was recorded on. Better converters would be noticeable, as would better engineering.

Or better songs.

I guess what I am saying is that from a power and quality standpoint, the differences between Native and TDM are small.

Compatibility is another issue altogether.

Best....H

[Rob G]

RyanC,

So may I assume that you've used Steinberg's Nuendo via VST System Link in a professional setting, & found it lacking? If you have used it in a professional setting how many computers did you have linked together, & what types of audio interfaces, & AD/DA converters were used in the system. How many track/busses in the system were alocated to the VST System Link itself of the total tracks/busses, & etc.. Also did you optimize the buffer settings of the system to minimize latency.

Rob G..

[Rob G]

logichead,

What do you think of the concept of the multi-node system. How many I/O channels have you actually seen, or could conceive operating in a fully functional manner (max channel count) in a multinode system. My vision of a system within Logic Pro would be to have a quad processor G5 as a primary CPU, several X Serve's for additional processing, running Apple RAID array drives, & utilizing Apogee frontend, & backend conversion.

Rob G..

[mixerguy]

ProTools TDM has the huge advantage of a general lack of latency issues... so for recording, or for using outboard analog processing in the mix... it makes life so much easier than any native system. Too bad it is overpriced!!!

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by mixerguy

ProTools TDM has the huge advantage of a general lack of latency issues... so for recording, or for using outboard analog processing in the mix... it makes life so much easier than any native system. Too bad it is overpriced!!!

It's only overpriced if you're not making money with it. A solid business plan is a healthy thing and for those who pay their rigs off quickly, it's just necessary tool.

[Rob G]

mixerguy,

Host is host. But what are your opinions relating to this thread and the hardware/software applications forementioned. Pro Tools TDM is not host based. Nuendo when using VST System Link is not host in a conventional sense being that at least two computers are linked together to establish this type of network, & processing is'nt done exclusivly within one CPU. Logic Pro using Distributed Audio Processing is'nt host in a conventional way either being that the host/primary computer 'is' used for processing but at least one other computer, & it's respective CPU is used as a node for processing as well.

Rob G..

[Bishbashbosh]

I think these type of comparisons pretty much always fall flat, as they are based on purely comparing processing power.
It depends entirely what the end purpose is for the rig. For instance, for post-production then I think Protools is hands down the winner, with Nuendo coming second, and Logic coming nowhere.... processing power doesn't come into it.

If you're running a studio where you're expecting several musicians to be able to track simultaneously, then I think TDM is a must have.... You HAVE to be able to work latency free to be able to do this...... again processing power has nothing to do with this...... you could have a million G5's as Logic nodes and it still wouldn't get the job done. (Logic as front end for TDM is clearly fine)

But if you're just running a facility for writing, or just mixing, then any of the above would be fine, and it's down to personal preference of the interface (or other considerations, such as whether scoring is needed)

[RyanC]

Right- What Bishbashbosh said-

So what if a semi truck can carry more then a minivan if I need to get accross town quickly, the minivan is a no brainer.

The bottom line is that PT-TDM is a hardware digital mixer and a daw in one package. Nuendo or Logic are only DAW's- to truly compete, they have to have the hardware mixer-

The better comparison is PT-HD vs Nu and a DM2000. . . this is a better comparison in application and price. Adding a second native machine really doesn't change that much.

Also- Rob I did use system link, i did not subject a paying costumer to my experiment- I used 2 computers, ofcourse I tweked buffers. I spent years doing that, wondering when I could get into the under 10-15ms world. It was actually between SX2 and Nu2, to be accurate. I had a motu 2408mkIII and 1296 in one machine and a 96/52 in the other- it worked fine.

The reason I say it is a joke is that the sales job is "now double your power, and then just keep adding from there. . . no need to throw away that old computer" But if you try it- you would see. I just checked it out with some freebe VSTI's and I had licenses for SX2 and NU2 at the time. I just don't see it being that useful, run giga, or v stack or j-station on a second machine- sure, but the only thing I could figure is that I could have video play from PC-2 and avoid having my main machine have to carry that load. But you could also do that with MTC. . . and you could use MIDIoverLAN- and not even need all that $$$ hardware. Anyway that is my $.02-

[Rob G]

Bishbashbosh ,


I tend to concur pretty much with almost all that you've said. There are some things about Nuendo feature wise that are lacking in Pro Tools but this is software related. A VST System Link would'nt work for me tracking wise. Mix wise yes I could definatly work in Nuendo via VST System Link as long as the system is properly configured. Same thing goes for Logic Pro. There are many features of Logic Pro I'd like to see implemented in some form, or fashion into Pro Tools. But I personally tend to stay away from Logic Pro for tracking, or editing. Yet, I feel very good about the concept of mixing in Logic Pro. OMF is the key to surmmounting the barriers between these three systems if you have to work within them all. Thanks for your comments. Feel free to elaborate further.

Rob G..

[Rob G]

RyanC,

Very insightful. I was curious about the details regarding how you went about using VST System Link. Have you seen it in action using more than two CPU's? What audiocard/interface in your opinion is best suited to Nuendo being used in the this fashion via VST System Link. Any comments, or direct observations of Logic Pro's Distributed Audio Processing at work.

Rob G..

[RhOdEz]

Allright we're talking about setup for mix/recording in the box .Any single computer/software combo can do the job if you mix outta box with hardware ,yadda,yadda .
If we're talking about mix in the box then it's all about plugins .Instead of using real mixer strip - we're using plugin .And thats where things start gettin' funky .
All these network shared resource things are cute (fx-teleport,logic node thing etc) - on paper and in theory .I would like to see damn coders to try to mix just one damn "real world" project and then to proceed to next one ,and next one ....
Every project i've been involved with ,where multiple computers are involved turns into nightmare at some point .Something always ****s up - because poor single cpu can't handle averige amount of "high quality" plugins needed for averige pop song for example.Just at the moment when mix starts happening you need "just 2 more good eqs for lead voc and snare and one reverb return for piano" and computer stops responding .Umm ok thats why i bought second UAD card you say - but damn uad is aleady fully taxed on drums and strings damn!
Allright i'll add mighty fx-teleport to the setup then and finish the job.....

Two days later ....

&^&*^#%* piece of shit finnaly works ! yeah ! prob was shitty netwok card driver and i can finnaly continue mixing .Okay where were we - ahh add reverb via fx teleport - all is set ,insert plug in and computer stops responding - project is already maxed out i need to get rid of smth .Okay i freeze/bounce smth ,cpu is free to add one teleported fx .YES it opened - i hit play and hear clicks and pops ??why - cause teleport cant keep up with latency .Okay i change latency - but wait why are my drums slighly off tempo now - ohh cause of latency change and compensation is gone bye,bye and i need to ........ETC,ETC,ETC......

If you ask me this is not what i wanted to do when i started doin' this studio thing ,i'm expirienced enough to fight my way to the final result but it aint that fun and easy anymore .Everyone are talking about addon cards like UAD and powercore - if you're using them you know they're pretty limited in terms of power .I'm talking about "high" quality plugins there i dont want to use shitty low cpu/dsp plugs cause they dont bring anything nice sounding to the table .
And now the final point .
The only platform i've worked on with enough resources to finish mix of simple pop song in the box without troubles along the way is protools HD3accel .
I may like nuendo better for editing ,or logic for midi stuff , but either you endup with no resources left (and you decide what the hell - its sounding pretty decent - yea right ) or you endup trying to figure out which part of chain is giving you trouble this time with complex setups .
Native is unfortunately not there yet if you ask me .

[Rob G]

RhOdEz,

Thanks for presenting your position. It seems you've experienced alot of time behind a computer screen using UAD, or Powercore. Have you worked on either a Nuendo system using VST System Link, or Logic Pro using Distributed Audio Processing. If so in either case did the system granted being set up properly function properly. If not where were the bugs. And once again I'm seeking feedback specific to either Nuendo working via VST System Link(please specify the # of CPU's used), or Logic Pro working via Distributed Audio Process(please specify the number of nodes used).

Rob G..

[Rob G]

All,

I ask that if you've had experiences with any of the specific systems mentioned in the title I'd ask that you give details as to how the system was configured listing the number of CPU's used in each set up, & particulars regarding latency, buffer settings, & CPU designations for individual types of processes whether they be instrument specific, tracks specific, or plug-ins specific.

Rob G..

P.S.: RyanC's latter response was a good example of the type of responses I'm seeking. Hopefully this thread will serve to be informative for those contemplating purchasing/setting up any of the types of systems described in the thread title.

Rob G..

[Rob G]

juniorhifikit,

Quote:"It's only overpriced if you're not making money with it. A solid business plan is a healthy thing and for those who pay their rigs off quickly, it's just necessary tool."

-juniorhifikit



I could'nt agree with you more.


Rob G..

[Seti808]

You guys seem to be talking about about older pc's and older software.

Dual dual core pc with Nuendo 3.02 is some serious power now days!

I mostly use hardware not plugins for live tracking.

But I have tracked live bands with a apogee ad-16x and a crane song spider running sometimes up to 16 tracks live with vsti's, all kinds of plugins uad-1, tc powercores with no latency problems.

What latency problems are you guys talking about?

Nuendo's built in automatic outboard latency compensation is a blessing! (ping)

Im run some decent size projects at 40 + tracks with a very low latency 3 ms
and have not really ran into a latency problem.


Is this a old thread?

Nuendo 3 rocks!

[RhOdEz]

Rob G - first i must thank you for bringing this subject in nice objective ,analitical and civilised way ,similar discussions about all this ended up in flames,locked etc so thanx for trying to keep it simple and informative ,i'm obviously interested in all this so lets add some facts :

from nuendo 3 manual :

"However, the latency time of a VST System Link network is the total
latency of all the ASIO cards in the system added together. Therefore
it’s extra important to minimize the latency times for each computer in
the network " - end of quote

So it's all okay if i setup 2 computers for that - double the latency and i need bidirectional adat or spdif connection.
But i think the point of all this is in connecting lets say 5 computers right?
So this is where nightmare part comes in - first theres accumulated latency of all cards of system - then insane digital audio routing and clocking of all that ,plus file managment. I dont even want to think what happens when DSP cards and delay compensation kicks in .
I doubt i'll see any response here of happy camper using huge VST System link for professional work (unless every computer plays 2 audio tracks ,one reverb and metronome).If there's someone doing it please share da voodoo :)

Now that logic node thing - i've never tried it or seen anyone doing it .If i understand it right its similar thing as FXteleport on PC .Audio travels via network - its being processed - back to network - back to main DAW - so it means it having cumulative latency too ,it should have atleast twice the buffersize of main coreaudio/asio/whatever driver .
I think i like that way of doing things more then system link cause i can add more boxes and stay inside reasonable latency figures IF i get lucky with network/ hardware/software variables .
Hmm the only way i see it working okay ,is setting main DAW to ultra low latency like buffer at 64 or 128 and let networked computers do all the job ,not to stress main DAW too much.

I think you see where i'm heading - whichever method you choose its SERIAL buffering involved - more components you add - more latency so this is where i like protools TDM method of doing some things in paralel (if i understand DSP signal flow there)
I've setup some pretty complex configs for some people and (so far) best way of connecting things is oldfashioned MTC/midi for sync between protools /logic/nuendo rigs ,adat lightpipe for audio between them ,set em all on same wordclock and it all works .Yeap i know its not sample accurate but atleast it can work for 24/7 .If someone's got better idea please share

Just thinking out loud

[Bishbashbosh]

Bearing in mind how these threads usually end up, this one is remarkably good natured!!!!
Seti808..... I am referring to latency while tracking. Being able to punch in on multiple tracks with the band listening back latency free. This is still only possible using analogue, RADAR (or similar) or TDM to my knowledge.
The issue is not delay compensation (which is simply a matter of the application delaying tracks by specific amounts so that they all end up playing at the correct time....but they are all delayed). TDM is ALWAYS working flat out effectively, whereas host CPU power is drawn as necessary.
This is the difference between a computer, and a computer designed specifically for recording audio.

All three systems work great, and it's certainly possible to make fantastic records using any of them. Personally for my system I chose TDM, because it is the best tool for what I do, but if you're working in such a way that the benefits of TDM are not an issue, then perhaps putting the cash into something else might be of more benefit.

[Geert van den Berg]

With the VST link you would need 2 copies of the software and also both computers should be equipped with a digital hardware i/o, right?

I think that the Logic nodes are a more elegant solution, because it goes via ethernet and you don't need to install Logic on the second machine. The drawback is that it's only usefull for Logic its own plugins, and who is using those?

I any case I think that if you can keep your system in one computer it's the easiest to operate. The nodes setup seems quite transparant as well, but vst-link needs some attention to the other computers. So you'll need either more computer screens or switches. I can imaging linking 2 computers, but 4 would be too much using vst-link. Is that even possible?

[gfx]

Ive been through Powercores and UAD's and keep going back to my trusty TDM rig. Although I do still run a UAD alongside my TDM.

The two do live side by side quite happily in Logic an PT

FX teleport/wormhole/Logic Node/System Link is all well and dandy on paper.

The reality is somewhat different , latency , bugs.

I want to make music not mess endlessly with tweaking parameters.

The reason I run DSP is simple im tired of the update war thats prevalent on computers.

Same reason I dropped PC and went Mac.

Fiddly and updating and rebuilds......

TDM is expensive yes , Digi dont play nice yes BUT it works and for the most part better than the newer alternatives.......

Ill take hassle free over cutting edge anyday. Maybe the situation will change in a year or two as the other platforms mature. But today right now inmy humble opinion PT has the edge for me.

IF I run out of DSP then bounce or use less bloody plugins. Im still always amazed at how many plugins people think they need to use. Less is a whole lot more imho

I still have a good analouge outboard collection. I cant bear being 100% 'in the box'
Ill stick to the devil I know.


GFX

FXpansion Audio UK Ltd

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by gfx

The reason I run DSP is simple im tired of the update war thats prevalent on computers.

Same reason I dropped PC and went Mac.

Fiddly and updating and rebuilds......

It's interetsing you say this. As I find at work it's the continuous PT's upgrades and MAC OS changes that are more irritating than anything.

Just look at how many people are bitching becuse they get to pay, yet again, to upgrade their plug-ins to work with PT7.

This form the DUC regarding the new upgrade cost:

I hear through the grapevine that to exchange an HD|1 Core Card from PCI to PCIe will run $2000, and each accel card will run about $1500 in an exchange as well.

And look at the number of OS changes in the lasy little while at Apple. And now it's all going to change again, with the new Mac's. And everyone will have to pay AGAIN, to switch all their existing cards, to work with the new Apple's.

[BrianT]

There are a number of intelligent and well thought out responses in this thread. Very cool.

The one piece of info I would add is the current explosion in CPU power, due to dualcore CPUs. I'm currently using several dual, dualcore CPU Opteron systems running Nuendo now. 4 CPUs total.

The difference is not subtle, as compared to previous Native systems. Operating at 64 sample buffers is possible, under pretty hefty project loads. Of course, the total latency is still 64 samples x2 = 128 samples ( 1 input & 1 output buffer) plus a few samples for internal shopkeeping. So you're still looking at more latency than PT, assuming the PT user doesn't add too many or the wrong model plugins. But the comparison is now down to ~ 64 samples vs ~128 samples. A huge improvement for Native from even 1 year ago.

I'm about to build a quad CPU system, using dualcore Opterons. This will yield 8 CPU cores. Because of the way Opterons use their on-die memory controllers, I expect scaling to continue nearly linearly, as far as memory and CPU performance. If I am correct, latency should fall in half, again. It's just speculation until I see it in the real world, but I believe I'm about 4 - 6 weeks away from having a Native system with the same latency as a TDM system, and with much greater plugin power than an HD3 system. We're talking about nearly 20GHz of CPU in a single system. BTW, I'm no huge fan of the distributed computing model for audio, as others have said here as well. In a high expectation, professional situation, the complexity is asking for trouble, IMO. OTOH, that much power in a single system via multicore CPUs is fantastic.

Whether I'm correct or not in the immediate future, this whole equation will change again by a 2x factor in the next 12-16 months as quadcore CPUs become available. The box I'm about to build will be relatively expensive and is really a luxury at this point, but an 8 processor system will be very affordable within 12-18 months, just as dual processor systems currently cost about what a single CPU system cost just 6 months ago, thanks to dualcore CPUs.

The current view in this thread seems accurate to me, though the quad Opterons I'm using are now within striking distance of PT performance. But I think those of you rethinking the subject should be aware that current developements in CPU manufacturing will put Native systems on fully competitive footing with hardware systems sooner than many may think.

It's a trend and I don't think you can avoid the conclusion that sooner or later (and I think it will be sooner), Native will do to hardware what DAWs have done to consoles and tape decks.

But that's just one man's opinion.

[slaves666]

Nuendo with a few UAD cards provides plenty of power for me. I love the extrenal effects. Lets me patch my hardware boxes and load them as plugins, huge + over PT plus its thousands cheaper.

[Seti808]

I dont know what latency problems you have had with pc but
I record live bands with 10- 16 tracks live and do punch ins
with out latency issues in nuendo 3 all the time.

Dual dual core and quad dual core soon is more than enough power to not
need to network computers, even with huge projects and ultra low latency.

Imho

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by Henchman

It's interetsing you say this. As I find at work it's the continuous PT's upgrades and MAC OS changes that are more irritating than anything.

Just look at how many people are bitching becuse they get to pay, yet again, to upgrade their plug-ins to work with PT7.
.

You don't have to upgrade, the system was working before the upgrade wasn't it?

And for which plugin update did you have to pay? We'll be upgrading soon.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by slaves666

Nuendo with a few UAD cards provides plenty of power for me. I love the extrenal effects. Lets me patch my hardware boxes and load them as plugins, huge + over PT plus its thousands cheaper.

For your information, you can patch your outboard in PT and select it as an insert, just like if it were a plugin.

But you're right, it's more expensive and Nuendo does offer an elegant solution.