D-Box Question: DAW Mix-Buss Routing
Palaver
Thread Starter
#1
19th July 2010
Old 19th July 2010
  #1
Gear addict
 

Thread Starter
D-Box Question: DAW Mix-Buss Routing

Hey guys,

I did plenty of searching on the forums and they have answered many of my questions regarding the D-Box (concerning wiring with the Ensemble, etc.). However, I'm still left wondering if I can achieve the following:

1) Is it possible to have the 'DAW' button on my D-Box correspond to the software 'Master Fader' in Logic or Ableton while using all 8 analog outputs for summing?

I ask this because the only way I can seem to record my summed output is by printing it onto a seperate track using inputs 7/8. I can't actually monitor the limiting plugin as I record. It is quite important for me to hear any digital 'clipping' if I am pushing to hard.

Just to give you an idea of my setup and to help your futher understand my question:

1) I have all 8 analog outputs of the Ensemble feeding into the D-box.

2) The summed output feeds my FCS compressor into my Avalon 747sp.

3) The FCS and Avalon are patched into analog inputs 7/8 onto the Ensemble.

4) The coaxial cable is connected to the SPDIF out of the Ensemble into the digital input of the D-Box (the DAW monitor feed).

5) Maestro is set to "line-out."

6) In the DAW (be it Ableton or Logic) I assign the respective tracks to all 8 outputs of the Ensemble. When I push 'SUM' on the D-Box I can hear everything great.

7) When I push "DAW," I have to turn up the volume of inputs 7/8 in Maestro in order to hear it. Everything works great, but I am still a little confused with respect to printing my tracks.

Here is the QUESTION again:

Is it possible to configure the Master-buss in either Logic/Ableton thru Maestro to accept inputs 7 & 8 for monitoring? I currently cannot do this. I end up creating a feedback loop (which makes sense, as outputs 1/2 are already feeding the summation). I'm only able to control outputs on the master fader switch in both DAW platforms.

I feel the need to be able to monitor the limiter plugins on the final track print. I am still trying to figure out if this is even possible?

If you guys have any tips for setting up the DAW signal routing with the Ensemble and D-Box, I'd love to hear.

All apologies with the questions. I certainly hope my post makes sense!

Cheers,
Phil B.
#2
19th July 2010
Old 19th July 2010
  #2
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaver View Post
Hey guys,

I did plenty of searching on the forums and they have answered many of my questions regarding the D-Box (concerning wiring with the Ensemble, etc.). However, I'm still left wondering if I can achieve the following:
Deep Breath taken

Quote:
1) Is it possible to have the 'DAW' button on my D-Box correspond to the software 'Master Fader' in Logic or Ableton while using all 8 analog outputs for summing?
You simply patch the 8 outputs of the Ensemble into the Summing Mixer inputs, and stem your tracks accordingly.

The DAC on that box if meant to be an ancillary DAC for monitoring the RETURN of the 2-buss output from the computer. Certainly you can use it however you want [mixing ITB etc...] So, with your chain patched;

Eight Analog Outs --- DBOX MIXER

DBOX SUM OUT --- Stereo AD converters

Stereo DA converters [DBOX] ---- Monitors

Quote:
I ask this because the only way I can seem to record my summed output is by printing it onto a seperate track using inputs 7/8. I can't actually monitor the limiting plugin as I record. It is quite important for me to hear any digital 'clipping' if I am pushing to hard.
You need to connect the SPDIF link to the AES/EBU input of the DBOX and then assign the newly recorded 2-bus track to the SPDIF output, so that it feeds the DA to your monitors. Then you can switch to the DA and monitor post DAW 2-bus. You can switch back and forth between Dry and Processed. If you are not ready for that, you can patch the SUM out in your processing and then into the Stereo Analog Inputs of the DBOX, to monitor it before you decide to PRINT the mix.

Quote:
Just to give you an idea of my setup and to help your futher understand my question:

1) I have all 8 analog outputs of the Ensemble feeding into the D-box.

2) The summed output feeds my FCS compressor into my Avalon 747sp.

3) The FCS and Avalon are patched into analog inputs 7/8 onto the Ensemble.

4) The coaxial cable is connected to the SPDIF out of the Ensemble into the digital input of the D-Box (the DAW monitor feed).

5) Maestro is set to "line-out."

6) In the DAW (be it Ableton or Logic) I assign the respective tracks to all 8 outputs of the Ensemble. When I push 'SUM' on the D-Box I can hear everything great.

7) When I push "DAW," I have to turn up the volume of inputs 7/8 in Maestro in order to hear it. Everything works great, but I am still a little confused with respect to printing my tracks.
1) Cool
2) Cool
3) Cool
4) Cool
5) Cool
6) Cool
7) You are not using the DAW to route the post 2-buss return, it seems you are sub mixing with the Apogee control panel which I would recommend against. Just create a new track with these I/O assignments and everything will be right as rain.

Quote:
Here is the QUESTION again:

Is it possible to configure the Master-buss in either Logic/Ableton thru Maestro to accept inputs 7 & 8 for monitoring? I currently cannot do this. I end up creating a feedback loop (which makes sense, as outputs 1/2 are already feeding the summation). I'm only able to control outputs on the master fader switch in both DAW platforms.

I feel the need to be able to monitor the limiter plugins on the final track print. I am still trying to figure out if this is even possible?

If you guys have any tips for setting up the DAW signal routing with the Ensemble and D-Box, I'd love to hear.

All apologies with the questions. I certainly hope my post makes sense!

Cheers,
Phil B.
You would use the SPDIF outputs and not 7/8 as you are using those to stem to the mixer.
#3
19th July 2010
Old 19th July 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Faderjockey's Avatar
Yes.. What he said. I'm in Cubase not logic..
But this is what I do...

Not sure about logic.. But when I need plugs to print.. I put them on input channels... So they are printed with F/X.. The audio track I'm printing to is set to my SPDIF out to the D-Box. I have my metering plugs on this track. So I'm seeing and hearing everything right before I print.

Honestly I never listen to the sum section.. I use the sum button only if I'm tracking and I'm mixing 2 or 3 mics to one track.. I may listen to the sum real quick for balance.
but when mixing i'm always in the DAW mode.. So I'm hearing the return of everything.
Palaver
Thread Starter
#4
20th July 2010
Old 20th July 2010
  #4
Gear addict
 

Thread Starter
Hey Roc & Co.,

I appreciate the reply. I know you must be blue in the face with all of these D-Box threads going around. I really did read thru them... for some reason, it wasn't until I posted that it finally 'clicked' in my brain. I had every step correct except for the software routing of the 7/8 Ensemble input.

The issue I had was my Maestro routing. On the 'software out' tab I had N/A selected and not SPDIF out. After thinking 'out-loud' and reading your response, I thought about it, and got it. I think there was something else I had to switch as well...

I think the problem people are having is just the unfamiliarity with outboard routing. I'm slowly getting out of the software realm, and I am starting to get the workflow. It would certainly be beneficial if D-Box/Apogee did quick screenshots of how to set up Maestro and track routing.

It really is very simple. That's the problem. Stupid things like selecting 'line-out' etc., are very easily overlooked to the new user.

As for a quick review:

The first thing that struck me while mixing was the head-room (due to the summation). The faders go way up, and there's a lot more 'wiggle/adjustment' room on the individual tracks. It's almost like going from a congested single road to a multi-lane highway. The D-box just made things quicker, easier and more effortless.

As for sound, I noticed the transients seemed different, and left/right placement was better defined. I'm not sure if 'better' is the correct description, but certainly more accurate and powerful. I believe the D-Box's greatest benefit is the workflow enhancement. It just speeds things up.., kind of like when you first upgraded from a bad set of monitors.

And Roc, thanks for your patience and communication. It's hugely appreciated. BTW, I'm digging the FCS a ton!

Cheers,
Phil B.
#5
20th July 2010
Old 20th July 2010
  #5
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaver View Post
Hey Roc & Co.,

I appreciate the reply. I know you must be blue in the face with all of these D-Box threads going around. I really did read thru them... for some reason, it wasn't until I posted that it finally 'clicked' in my brain. I had every step correct except for the software routing of the 7/8 Ensemble input.

The issue I had was my Maestro routing. On the 'software out' tab I had N/A selected and not SPDIF out. After thinking 'out-loud' and reading your response, I thought about it, and got it. I think there was something else I had to switch as well...

I think the problem people are having is just the unfamiliarity with outboard routing. I'm slowly getting out of the software realm, and I am starting to get the workflow. It would certainly be beneficial if D-Box/Apogee did quick screenshots of how to set up Maestro and track routing.

It really is very simple. That's the problem. Stupid things like selecting 'line-out' etc., are very easily overlooked to the new user.

As for a quick review:

The first thing that struck me while mixing was the head-room (due to the summation). The faders go way up, and there's a lot more 'wiggle/adjustment' room on the individual tracks. It's almost like going from a congested single road to a multi-lane highway. The D-box just made things quicker, easier and more effortless.

As for sound, I noticed the transients seemed different, and left/right placement was better defined. I'm not sure if 'better' is the correct description, but certainly more accurate and powerful. I believe the D-Box's greatest benefit is the workflow enhancement. It just speeds things up.., kind of like when you first upgraded from a bad set of monitors.

And Roc, thanks for your patience and communication. It's hugely appreciated. BTW, I'm digging the FCS a ton!

Cheers,
Phil B.

Awesome!

Above is a Perfect analogy, and exactly the reason for the traffic on the interstate. The DA's are too busy. I know I'm a little happier when I'm sailing down the road @ 65 MPH, instead of Tortoise speed, barley moving the needle to 15.
#6
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
Ok so there's more than enough info around here re; d box and figuring out routing issues that can be confusing to some (myself include, and thanks Roc)
But let me throw another specific thing out there that continues to thwart my work flow personally and may be of help to other that are routing challenged such as myself. That is...

The need to always be switching routing back and forth "in Maestro outs and daw sub group outs" when tracking VRS mixing "if" you want to monitor via Maestro.

I mean all is summed for "mixing" with analog gear on stems etc. no problem, we have all mostly figured out these questions.
However again, If one wants to monitor via Maestro when tracking one needs to change the routing of sub groups out to a stereo pair and change Maestro outs as well. Essentially, I/we are then not summing "4 pairs" into d box but only one pair so we can facilitate monitoring via Maestro.

Anyone have a better idea I may very well be missing?
#7
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #7
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
Ok so there's more than enough info around here re; d box and figuring out routing issues that can be confusing to some (myself include, and thanks Roc)
But let me throw another specific thing out there that continues to thwart my work flow personally and may be of help to other that are routing challenged such as myself. That is...

The need to always be switching routing back and forth "in Maestro outs and daw sub group outs" when tracking VRS mixing "if" you want to monitor via Maestro.

I mean all is summed for "mixing" with analog gear on stems etc. no problem, we have all mostly figured out these questions.
However again, If one wants to monitor via Maestro when tracking one needs to change the routing of sub groups out to a stereo pair and change Maestro outs as well. Essentially, I/we are then not summing "4 pairs" into d box but only one pair so we can facilitate monitoring via Maestro.

Anyone have a better idea I may very well be missing?
Assign your low latency mix to the Dangerous DA and go into Special Mode.
#8
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Assign your low latency mix to the Dangerous DA and go into Special Mode.
Thanks Roc and I apologize for my being slow with how Maestro plays into all this but I'm having a little trouble with this concept.

If I'm correct, Special Mode allows you to,

MIX any combination of inputs "together... to your monitors / phones".
(ie; Sum, Daw, Analog) at the same time.

Conversely, Normal Mode = each Stereo input is defeated when another is selected. As one would most likely want to use for the most part.

Just trying wrap my head around how Maestro plays into this and how it might best be simplified in this scenario.

sincerely,
The Routing challenged and seeking simplicity in a hybrid world.

Thanks again for the patience.
#9
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #9
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
Thanks Roc and I apologize for my being slow with how Maestro plays into all this but I'm having a little trouble with this concept.

If I'm correct, Special Mode allows you to,

MIX any combination of inputs "together... to your monitors / phones".
(ie; Sum, Daw, Analog) at the same time.

Conversely, Normal Mode = each Stereo input is defeated when another is selected. As one would most likely want to use for the most part.

Just trying wrap my head around how Maestro plays into this and how it might best be simplified in this scenario.

sincerely,
The Routing challenged and seeking simplicity in a hybrid world.

Thanks again for the patience.
Maybe I am confused about what your asking.

Its not very clear from your other post.

Is it possible to write very clearly - what your issue is and what you are trying to accomplish???
#10
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Maybe I am confused about what your asking.

Its not very clear from your other post.

Is it possible to write very clearly - what your issue is and what you are trying to accomplish???
Sure and thanks Roc.

I'm trying to figure out how I should set up Maestro so that I can sum the 8 outs to d box and be able to monitor through Maestro for tacking without loosing any of those 8 outs in the monitoring.

(I usually monitor the analog input on d box after sum out to api 2500 and back into analog in)

I believe the analog output section of Maestro should be set to Line out and not stereo out. This may be where I was going wrong.
As well, the to hardware of Maestro should be spidif out.
And then in this set up, I should be monitoring via the DAW input of d box.

Hope that makes sense, I'm writing in haste and have to get back to a session. Thanks again.
#11
9th August 2010
Old 9th August 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaver View Post
Hey Roc & Co.,

I appreciate the reply. I know you must be blue in the face with all of these D-Box threads going around. I really did read thru them... for some reason, it wasn't until I posted that it finally 'clicked' in my brain. I had every step correct except for the software routing of the 7/8 Ensemble input.

The issue I had was my Maestro routing. On the 'software out' tab I had N/A selected and not SPDIF out. After thinking 'out-loud' and reading your response, I thought about it, and got it. I think there was something else I had to switch as well...

I think the problem people are having is just the unfamiliarity with outboard routing. I'm slowly getting out of the software realm, and I am starting to get the workflow. It would certainly be beneficial if D-Box/Apogee did quick screenshots of how to set up Maestro and track routing.

It really is very simple. That's the problem. Stupid things like selecting 'line-out' etc., are very easily overlooked to the new user.

As for a quick review:

The first thing that struck me while mixing was the head-room (due to the summation). The faders go way up, and there's a lot more 'wiggle/adjustment' room on the individual tracks. It's almost like going from a congested single road to a multi-lane highway. The D-box just made things quicker, easier and more effortless.

As for sound, I noticed the transients seemed different, and left/right placement was better defined. I'm not sure if 'better' is the correct description, but certainly more accurate and powerful. I believe the D-Box's greatest benefit is the workflow enhancement. It just speeds things up.., kind of like when you first upgraded from a bad set of monitors.

And Roc, thanks for your patience and communication. It's hugely appreciated. BTW, I'm digging the FCS a ton!

Cheers,
Phil B.
I totally know what you mean... faders creep up during mixing, DAs overload, no headroom. If only DAWs had some kind of "handle" that let you turn down the outputs to a pair of D/As. Almost like a "master fader" for that pair. Then you could mix with headroom without having to run thru some complicated to setup box that does nothing more than sum signals. But alas, since no DAW manufacter has come up with such a "master fader" we must use the "multilane highway" of summing boxes. Oh wait...
#12
10th August 2010
Old 10th August 2010
  #12
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
Sure and thanks Roc.

I'm trying to figure out how I should set up Maestro so that I can sum the 8 outs to d box and be able to monitor through Maestro for tacking without loosing any of those 8 outs in the monitoring.

(I usually monitor the analog input on d box after sum out to api 2500 and back into analog in)

I believe the analog output section of Maestro should be set to Line out and not stereo out. This may be where I was going wrong.
As well, the to hardware of Maestro should be spidif out.
And then in this set up, I should be monitoring via the DAW input of d box.

Hope that makes sense, I'm writing in haste and have to get back to a session. Thanks again.
Clarity.....OK, What I WOULD do is Set the DBOX into "special mode"

USE LOGIC OR YOUR DAW to STEM to DA outputs feeding the DA accordingly. Don't Route your DAW sub mixes through Maestro. Use your DAW. Maestro gives you the ability to MIX PRE SOFTWARE INPUTS WITH POST SOFTWARE STEREO MIXES and gives you TWO [Stereo Mix B and Stereo Mix B] templates to work with. Make mix A the headphone output of the Ensemble for a Secondary Cue mix - and make the other feed the SPDIF for your main Monitor LATENCY FREE Routing. In Maestro - ROUTE THE INPUTS YOU DESIRE TO MIX With POST COMPUTER MIX STEMS FEEDING THE SUM INPUTS to the SPDIF output, whilst the track is armed in Logic and also muted so as not to feed the latency to the SUM or the Stereo DA or anywhere.

You will be mixing pre and post software with the DBOX and not with Maestro per say.
#13
10th August 2010
Old 10th August 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
chet.d's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
Clarity.....OK, What I WOULD do is Set the DBOX into "special mode"

USE LOGIC OR YOUR DAW to STEM to DA outputs feeding the DA accordingly. Don't Route your DAW sub mixes through Maestro. Use your DAW. Maestro gives you the ability to MIX PRE SOFTWARE INPUTS WITH POST SOFTWARE STEREO MIXES and gives you TWO [Stereo Mix B and Stereo Mix B] templates to work with. Make mix A the headphone output of the Ensemble for a Secondary Cue mix - and make the other feed the SPDIF for your main Monitor LATENCY FREE Routing. In Maestro - ROUTE THE INPUTS YOU DESIRE TO MIX With POST COMPUTER MIX STEMS FEEDING THE SUM INPUTS to the SPDIF output, whilst the track is armed in Logic and also muted so as not to feed the latency to the SUM or the Stereo DA or anywhere.

You will be mixing pre and post software with the DBOX and not with Maestro per say.
I'm mostly following you, though not sure what the hardware output of A mixer should be in Maestro in that scenario. Options are 1 thru 8 pairs and spidif...
I'm usually using the headphone out on the D box so I never even thought about going back to less desirable but still useful headphone outs of ensemble, Interesting point to consider if I follow correctly.

I'm fried from a long session so I'll try to absorb and consider more tomorrow. I really appreciate your help Adam.
I'm clearly kinda slow with the DAW routing world. Thank you.

...like Mr Edison says in your signature...
#14
20th September 2011
Old 20th September 2011
  #14
Gear Head
 

Any Logic users notice that outs 1-2 are not available even though we are monitoring through S/pdif into the D-box? I think this is a bug with Logic 9! Im clearly using spdif 9-10 but for whatever reason analogue 1-2 out does not show up.
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